What pisses you off the most about our team?

[Gary Nylund]

More pissed off at myself than anything. They finally did it the way I've always wanted...through the draft! Develop your own. And amassed an impressive group of talented youngsters, and still messed it all up! Did it the Edmonton way, always drafting the same types. This Best Player Available crap is the worst thing for GMs with big eyes. SHould have taken Hanifin over Marner, no matter how talented Marner was/is, we always need D. All the whining through the Burke years: We need a first line Centre and a Big Defenseman. Got lucky on the first, crapped the bed on the second. Marner's a great talent, but the greater need was and still is D.

LMAO.

 

[leafsfan5]

More pissed off at myself than anything. They finally did it the way I've always wanted...through the draft! Develop your own. And amassed an impressive group of talented youngsters, and still messed it all up! Did it the Edmonton way, always drafting the same types. This Best Player Available crap is the worst thing for GMs with big eyes. SHould have taken Hanifin over Marner, no matter how talented Marner was/is, we always need D. All the whining through the Burke years: We need a first line Centre and a Big Defenseman. Got lucky on the first, crapped the bed on the second. Marner's a great talent, but the greater need was and still is D.

This is an insane take

 

[Notsince67]

More pissed off at myself than anything. They finally did it the way I've always wanted...through the draft! Develop your own. And amassed an impressive group of talented youngsters, and still messed it all up! Did it the Edmonton way, always drafting the same types. This Best Player Available crap is the worst thing for GMs with big eyes. SHould have taken Hanifin over Marner, no matter how talented Marner was/is, we always need D. All the whining through the Burke years: We need a first line Centre and a Big Defenseman. Got lucky on the first, crapped the bed on the second. Marner's a great talent, but the greater need was and still is D.

edit. Hanifin wasnt even the best dman in the draft if you are now going to go back in retrospect.
Would have prefered werenski and that is still a downgrade from Marner

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Hanifin wasnt even the best goalie in the draft if you are now going to go back in retrospect.

True, not the best center either

 

[Notsince67]

This is an insane take

The only equivalent I can see is that someone might think it is difficult trading their ten bucks for a tooney

 

[JT AM da real deal]

More pissed off at myself than anything. They finally did it the way I've always wanted...through the draft! Develop your own. And amassed an impressive group of talented youngsters, and still messed it all up! Did it the Edmonton way, always drafting the same types. This Best Player Available crap is the worst thing for GMs with big eyes. SHould have taken Hanifin over Marner, no matter how talented Marner was/is, we always need D. All the whining through the Burke years: We need a first line Centre and a Big Defenseman. Got lucky on the first, crapped the bed on the second. Marner's a great talent, but the greater need was and still is D.

Noah has got amazing wheels and he is big and strong but he has not developed well as a D in his own end .. it was better we took Mitch I think it was a better pick .. but now we needed as you noted properly balance needs of team to succeed in da playoffs .. perhaps a trade with Canucks with Mitch10.9m and Rielly7.5M FOR ELarson7.2M, Horvat5.5M and Demko5M and Canucks 1st 2023 could work .. get Canucks some more scoring and lets us move JT to LW and brings us a G and a playoff C who knows how to win .. without a tender we have no hope

 

[francis246]

They had three young studs upfront and nothing on the backend and decided to sign FA Tavares.

As lots of people said at the time, It may have been wise to let them grow and try sign the D rather than JT.

The problem is you can’t operate in hindsight. No one thought Alex Pietrangelo would ever hit UFA. Hell no one thought JT would hit UFA and the cap projections at the time made it the right move 100%.

So much happened after that signing. But the JT signing wasn’t that bad ima vacuum. The decisions following, magnified the signing to a new level.

They traded Kadri for not the greatest return and ruined the Center depth, they got bent over by every single Young guy post ELC.

In hindsight, imagine if Jarmo agreed to trade up to #4 and we took Rantanen with their #1 pick and a dman with the extra pick ??

or imagine we traded down, got Werenski, Konecny and Aho as planned

 

[TheVision]

Noah has got amazing wheels and he is big and strong but he has not developed well as a D in his own end .. it was better we took Mitch I think it was a better pick .. but now we needed as you noted properly balance needs of team to succeed in da playoffs .. perhaps a trade with Canucks with Mitch10.9m and Rielly7.5M FOR ELarson7.2M, Horvat5.5M and Demko5M and Canucks 1st 2023 could work .. get Canucks some more scoring and lets us move JT to LW and brings us a G and a playoff C who knows how to win .. without a tender we have no hope

Thank you for underastanding my point re: balance. Of course Marner is the better player now, but that wasn't known at the time of the draft. My point was simply stop drafting the same players, simply because they may be the most talented available. When you're drafting, you know nothing of how these players will develop. Has Mitch developed much more than he was then? Has Mitch developed as a person? What are his playoff stats, are they where they should be for the talent he has and the price tag he commanded? WHo knows how Hanifin would have developed here? Again, this is all hindsight. But my point was only that you don't always have to draft the shiny toy, you may have greater needs.

An interesting proposal you have there, have always loved Horvat.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Other than playoff underachieving, if I had to say one more thing that pisses me off then it's lack of emotion/passion. Whether it's Matthews laughing at being hit in the playoffs, our captain being the robotic sort or the way Dubas and Marner talk to the media, seemingly thinking everything is just fine and only unlucky when they lose (at least I haven't heard any other explanation). But yeah lack of emotion/passion overall is what I would say.

The more I think about it, the more I think this team is doomed until something changes in that regard. Hockey is played with emotion/passion, at least winning hockey in the playoffs is. This team has so much talent, it will eventually win a round or two in the playoffs but at some point, the going gets really tough unless you're some sort of juggernaut that just rolls over their opponents (sort of like COL last season) and at that point, you need to dig deep and find that little bit extra within yourself and without emotion/passion, that's just not possible.

So much talent on this team. What a waste if it never amounts to anything.

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

Marner. I hate Marner.

Entitled brat is the epitome of the ideology in the room. Pond hockey with the puck, try and make a highlight instead of the smart play, reject fault and never take responsibility.

Yeah he just really rubs me the wrong way. It may be wrong, but I just get the strong sense he’s a self-important brat who’s merely interested in highlight reel pirouette passing.

It’s a shame, he had the big time block in the playoffs a number of years back and I thought we’d have a strong competitor hungry to just win and I feel like he’s just regressed further and further into megalomania

 

[geo25]

Yeah he just really rubs me the wrong way. It may be wrong, but I just get the strong sense he’s a self-important brat who’s merely interested in highlight reel pirouette passing.

It’s a shame, he had the big time block in the playoffs a number of years back and I thought we’d have a strong competitor hungry to just win and I feel like he’s just regressed further and further into megalomania

I wish we'd trade him sooner rather than later for a quality F or D that has fire in his belly & cares about the logo on his sweater.
His sense of entitlement and everything he and his father/media put us fans through turns me off hockey (and I've been watching the leafs for 50++ years).The SOONER he's gone the better. It takes only ONE bad apple to spoil an entire bushel...and fast.
A 1960's, 70's or 80's Leafs team would totally destroy this team....imho (for those old enough to remember what hockey used to be like) I am sickened by what I see on the ice, their attitude & lack of passion but even more so is their hatred.....yes, hatred of losing. It dosent bother this squad OR MANAGEMENT one bit......sad

 

[Nineteen67]

Lots of people are saying it now but IIRC, the overwhelming majority were very excited about signing Tavares. I will still say that that was a no brainer and if lack of D was that big a concern, it was always possible to sign JT, then trade Nylander for a Dman but that's another story. The only way signing JT would have been a bad move is if we had to overpay him by a large margin and that was not the case.


Indeed. There might only be one young top 4 Dman available and Dubas might be reluctant to pay the asking price. And if that price is something along the lines of Knies, Robertson plus a 1st round pick, that's certainly understandable.

Before JT was signed lots of media people were wondering how they were going to make it work and wondered who would be moved to make cap space to sign a 1D. And we all wonder to this day.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Before JT was signed lots of media people were wondering how they were going to make it work and wondered who would be moved to make cap space to sign a 1D. And we all wonder to this day.

If you say so, I don't pay much attention to the media so I dunno. I'm just going by what I read here and almost nobody had any concerns. I'm a bit skeptical of you saying "lots of media people" either just because normally when the media is ranting about something, someone posts a link here and when that happens, I usually do have a quick look. But whatever, whether people in the media were wondering is sorta irrelevant to me anyway as most of them spew "clickbaity" nonsense most of the time anyway as they're in the entertainment business after all.

That said, as I pointed out earlier, the options to move someone for a Dman has always been there, signing JT didn't mean that we had to stand pat after that.

 

[Nineteen67]

If you say so, I don't pay much attention to the media so I dunno. I'm just going by what I read here and almost nobody had any concerns. I'm a bit skeptical of you saying "lots of media people" either just because normally when the media is ranting about something, someone posts a link here and when that happens, I usually do have a quick look. But whatever, whether people in the media were wondering is sorta irrelevant to me anyway as most of them spew "clickbaity" nonsense most of the time anyway as they're in the entertainment business after all.

That said, as I pointed out earlier, the options to move someone for a Dman has always been there, signing JT didn't mean that we had to stand pat after that.

Who else would be talking about it? The bank tellers?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Who else would be talking about it? The bank tellers?

Like I said, I go by what I read here. Aren't the thousands of people who talk about the Leafs here enough?

 

[Nineteen67]

Like I said, I go by what I read here. Aren't the thousands of people who talk about the Leafs here enough?

OK. That explain things. Out in the hockey world it was a dominant concern.

 

[Gary Nylund]

OK. That explain things. Out in the hockey world it was a dominant concern.

You don't think is the hockey world? I don't pay much attention to the sports media but it's impossible to avoid completely and from what I've seen, the sports media spews garbage most of the time and there a number of posters here who are more insightful and knowledgeable than 99% of media personalities. In any case, I'm confident that there was near universal jubilation when JT was signed and that goes for this place, and the Toronto sports media and the only place where there was massive "concern" was on the main boards.

And like I said, the concern was unwarranted because there was nothing stopping us from making more moves to address the concerns about our D and guess what, we did make moves and our D is totally revamped and is in the best shape it's been in in decades.

 

[Antropovsky]

Seeing the tenacious ex leafs excelling on other team's while watching this team barely have a pulse many nights.

Hyman, Kadri, Moore, Marchment

Good job Dubas.

 

[The Management]

The entire philosophical underpinning of the Shanaplan is looking pretty shabby these days.

Traditionally, teams win games by outshooting, outscoring, out hitting, out defending and out goaltending the opposition. With some overlap between those categories and other nuances that glue it all together into a coherent team game.

Dubas and Shanahan have basically put all of our eggs into the first two baskets and conceded everything else to the opposition, going cheap on everything that isn't Big 4. And they don't even do a good job protecting and enhancing the Big 4. If they're skill guys who are poor defensively, why not build a protective supporting cast around them vs heavier teams and have defensive redundancy and reliable goaltending to back up them? AKA build a normal supporting cast.

Lack killer instinct? Why not bring previous cup champions to help instead of just bringing in old players indiscriminately? Thornton, Foligno, Spezza, Simmonds, Giordano have never been effective playoff performers or cup winners. They're just old. The only cup winners they managed to bring in were Muzzin, Bogosian and Clifford twice, and NAK. That's just not cutting it.

Goalies are voodoo? How about the fact that we paid the same 3rd round pick in draft capital to get 4 games out of David Rittich as Detroit did to secure Ville Husso's rights?

The slow burn incompetence that took an up and coming team to a nothing special middle of the pack team with so many holes, it's just sickening.

This is pretty depressing, but I'm inclined to agree.

Instead of putting complementary pieces around our core, we've spent on projects (Ritchie, Campbell, Murray) or players past their primes (Foligno, Thornton). The current group just hasn't done a good enough to find us gems in the rough or bringing in the character and experience needed to round out the inexperience and weaknesses in our group. Jake Muzzin may be the only exception. Jason Spezza was fine for what he brought, but at his age, couldn't drive the group forward on the ice in a meaningful way.

It's a little unusual when you think about Brendan Shanahan himself, who was regarded as a hard-nosed and character-driven hockey player that traditionally played on some pretty deep teams.

It doesn't feel like the identity of this team has changed in years, and the frustrations are still the same. I'm not without hope, and I usually say you can't judge a team by the moves they don't make. But just once I'd like to see a trade out of left field, that nobody was speculating about, that makes some notable improvement to our lineup. I can't fashion such a trade, but I'm not the general manager.

 

[snipes29]

To expand on this, the fact they never seem to learn from their mistakes or seemingly care enough to fix them.

Like, how long have we been complaining about them not starting on time? Or playing down to the opponents level? Or not putting in consistent 60 minute efforts?

We hear the same song and dance about all they’ve learned after they get bounced in round 1 but then just go back out there and repeat the same bullshit next year.

That’s what pisses me off. They don’t seem to want to grow up.

They are not good enough or built to win when it counts

 

[snipes29]

We were finally looking good. A new president came in and they named his vision the "Shanaplan".

We brought in the best that money could buy in a highly regarded coach and a proven GM. Things were changing. Toronto media was different, positive for a change. We were even warned that there would be pain, so we were patient, because things seemed to be going to plan. Nobody complained about not winning, not even the usually vile Toronto media.

We lucked out with the 1st overall pick and we now had our superstar. Our other recent pics (Willy and Mitch) were also starting to silence their critics as they were now playing better than many had expected.

We even had the foresight and guile to bring in one of the league's most respected veterans (Marleau) to be an example of professionalism for our young up-and-comers.


We were looking like we finally had our shit together. Everything was working out and we were getting better and better. The fanbase had waited decades to see Toronto finally have some patience and follow a plan. We were a solid team, especially down the middle with a future Rocket Richard winner at 1C, a physical, chippy, heart and soul 32-goal scoring, defensively responsible Kadri at 2C, and Bozak with his 56% face-off winning and supplemental scoring at 3C.


Why the hell did we need to sign Tavares?

Why couldn't we follow the plan?

Everything went to hell after that. Johnny T came in and everybody's stats went up. The timing was terrible. Stats went up just as new contracts needed to be signed. Inflated stats = inflated contract.

Our next moves were:
Incomprehensibly signing Marner to nearly $11 million, getting rid of that legendary GM, getting rid of that very highly touted coach, trading away nearly all 1st round draft picks.

Totally agree with every thing you said

 

[snipes29]

This team get's me much less angry this season, I just don't care anymore. They're proven losers until they demonstrate otherwise, which i don't expect.

Matthews and Marner have played in 6? winner take all games and scored 0 goals? They're losers, it's not even debatable.

Agree look at the Bruins their big guns always rise up!

 

[snipes29]

Horrible ownership group that lets horrible management continue managing this team horribly into a horrible decade of horribleness.

Lmao yep

That we tore it down really well. Acquired the best talent this team has had in a generation, but ultimately rushed the rebuild anyways.

When the team should have continued to focus on the future, the little taste of the playoffs destroyed the long term plan.

Expensive free agents were signed. Then we went ahead and spent precious picks and young talent on getting rid of players, and then more of that acquiring players who have ultimately not moved the needle at all.

I wish we never made the playoffs in 2017. It is what gave the management the green light to make horrible decisions.

Now we sit on the cusp of needing to rebuild again. We lost the youth and the depth, and our hopes hinge on broken goaltenders and the talent at the top end of our lineup.

Yep Shanahanplan

 

[4thline]

In hindsight, imagine if Jarmo agreed to trade up to #4 and we took Rantanen with their #1 pick and a dman with the extra pick ??

Wasn't / isn't hindsight for everyone. One of the weird situations where both Hunter and Marner fans are vindicated for being bullish on him, and Dubas and trade back fans are vindicated for being bullish on the strength of the 2015 draft and an opportunity to game it.

#teamtradeback

 

[snipes29]

This is pretty depressing, but I'm inclined to agree.

Instead of putting complementary pieces around our core, we've spent on projects (Ritchie, Campbell, Murray) or players past their primes (Foligno, Thornton). The current group just hasn't done a good enough to find us gems in the rough or bringing in the character and experience needed to round out the inexperience and weaknesses in our group. Jake Muzzin may be the only exception. Jason Spezza was fine for what he brought, but at his age, couldn't drive the group forward on the ice in a meaningful way.

It's a little unusual when you think about Brendan Shanahan himself, who was regarded as a hard-nosed and character-driven hockey player that traditionally played on some pretty deep teams.

It doesn't feel like the identity of this team has changed in years, and the frustrations are still the same. I'm not without hope, and I usually say you can't judge a team by the moves they don't make. But just once I'd like to see a trade out of left field, that nobody was speculating about, that makes some notable improvement to our lineup. I can't fashion such a trade, but I'm not the general manager.

Their identity is soft, and not built to win in playoffs whos fault is that?

This is pretty depressing, but I'm inclined to agree.

Instead of putting complementary pieces around our core, we've spent on projects (Ritchie, Campbell, Murray) or players past their primes (Foligno, Thornton). The current group just hasn't done a good enough to find us gems in the rough or bringing in the character and experience needed to round out the inexperience and weaknesses in our group. Jake Muzzin may be the only exception. Jason Spezza was fine for what he brought, but at his age, couldn't drive the group forward on the ice in a meaningful way.

It's a little unusual when you think about Brendan Shanahan himself, who was regarded as a hard-nosed and character-driven hockey player that traditionally played on some pretty deep teams.

It doesn't feel like the identity of this team has changed in years, and the frustrations are still the same. I'm not without hope, and I usually say you can't judge a team by the moves they don't make. But just once I'd like to see a trade out of left field, that nobody was speculating about, that makes some notable improvement to our lineup. I can't fashion such a trade, but I'm not the general manager.

Dumbass has screwed this team no cap room to bring in pieces? Nice job Dumbass