What junior leagues are the best?

[TheBeastCoast]

I do think the OHL is generally the strongest league of the three but I also believe that the WHL has historically been over rated and the Q under rated where as people consider it being the OHL and WHL with a gap and then the Q where as I think it is OHL a gap and then the WHL and Q.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I mean if you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore centuries of prejudice be my guest, but the reality is that there is inherent bias in the relationship between canadians and Québécois, and I know this coming from a familly thats half Canadian and Half Québécois.

Closer to home though, there is clear bias against the Q too. We see players labelled as offense only and the likes way more often than not. Marchessault is a good example.

Do you have any actual proof that Quebecois are discriminated against unfairly in the Draft? Like, data that shows French Canadians are more likely to make it as previously undrafted players, or anything like that? Because there are always going to be undrafted players that are late bloomers that make it through. Pulling a random example tells you nothing by itself.

The same year that Marchessault was first eligible for the draft, a trio of French-Canadian kids named Jordan Caron, Phillippe Paradis and Simon Despres were all selected in the First Round. None of those guys were ever any good and none even hit 200 career NHL games. So while scouts completely missed the boat on one Quebecois kid, there were others at the same time that they must have been overrating. Sometimes the draft isn't an exact science.

 

[OSA]

Ottawa led the OHL in the standings for the entire year. In February, the 67’s played a home and away with Gatineau…..and got demolished.

You can argue individual talent and that’s fine, but presently the standard of play/coaching in the Q mirrors the pro game much more closely than just about any other junior league at the moment.

 

[Mrb1p]

Do you have any actual proof that Quebecois are discriminated against unfairly in the Draft? Like, data that shows French Canadians are more likely to make it as previously undrafted players, or anything like that? Because there are always going to be undrafted players that are late bloomers that make it through. Pulling a random example tells you nothing by itself.

The same year that Marchessault was first eligible for the draft, a trio of French-Canadian kids named Jordan Caron, Phillippe Paradis and Simon Despres were all selected in the First Round. None of those guys were ever any good and none even hit 200 career NHL games. So while scouts completely missed the boat on one Quebecois kid, there were others at the same time that they must have been overrating. Sometimes the draft isn't an exact science.

I wasnt necessarily talking about Marchessault, I wasnt really into scouting back then (2009.) Just a general statement. The Q is inferior to the WHL and OHL as talent goes, I think thats fair. Its also fair to say that Q players come with their fair share of hate from the ROC. Think about Roy, as example, went 5th round, still seen as a primadonna by some, etc.

Its not something new and it has been acknowledged by former Q players. Lately Damphousse came out and talked about it on radio.

 

[SenzZen]

You're right that I should not spend time arguing about it. It is just pointless. I remember being a bit frustrated about the lack of respect when reading this post. 4 in a row (never been done?), 7 in 11. Its the time of the year where champions actually play each other, but it does not mean anything? Right.

And where does the fact that the Remparts swept their first 3 opponents in the QMJHL playoffs factor into league-wide depth?

Don't make me come off as a Q hater. Be happy about the 4 in a row, but it doesn't stand as evidence of league supremacy.

 

[TF1970]

Ottawa led the OHL in the standings for the entire year. In February, the 67’s played a home and away with Gatineau…..and got demolished.

You can argue individual talent and that’s fine, but presently the standard of play/coaching in the Q mirrors the pro game much more closely than just about any other junior league at the moment.

this past season was a weak one for the O relatively speaking to the other two CHL leagues. that much is not disputable at all.

 

[Remparts666]

And where does the fact that the Remparts swept their first 3 opponents in the QMJHL playoffs factor into league-wide depth?

Don't make me come off as a Q hater. Be happy about the 4 in a row, but it doesn't stand as evidence of league supremacy.

Well, they swept Gatineau but that serie was extremely tight (OT wins or 1goal games). The same team that crushed the powerful 67s twice earlier . Even Rimouski in the 2nd round probably gave them stronger opposition.

 

[bigdog16]

I wasnt necessarily talking about Marchessault, I wasnt really into scouting back then (2009.) Just a general statement. The Q is inferior to the WHL and OHL as talent goes, I think thats fair. Its also fair to say that Q players come with their fair share of hate from the ROC. Think about Roy, as example, went 5th round, still seen as a primadonna by some, etc.

Its not something new and it has been acknowledged by former Q players. Lately Damphousse came out and talked about it on radio.

Quebec players are seen in a similar light to Russians. They have a me first and a sefish mentality.

 

[KevSkillz4]

MHL can be compared to USHL, OHL, WHL right ?

 

[Albatros]

MHL can be compared to USHL, OHL, WHL right ?

Roughly, but bigger age discrepancy and direct link to pro teams including constant movement between the leagues. For example Demidov played mostly in the MHL this season but debuted in the KHL already in 2022/23 and has also played in the VHL. So more like a junior and farm league in one. Therefore there's no serious hockey league in Russia other than KHL, VHL, MHL as that trio covers everything.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Depends on what you're asking. Which league is the quality of competition the highest and which league is the best for development are two different questions.

It's not a junior league but the NCAA route I think is best for developing. Less games, more coaching, better facilities with much more time in the weight room. Just more of a whole person adolescent experience than riding a rickety bus to Prince Albert or Sudbury. Extra marks if you get to do the USNTDP before hand.

The dub is having a renaissance, quite a few 1st round picks in the last 5-6 years. I think it could really be any of the OHL, USHL, or the WHL depending on the year. Looking forward to that new junior competition summit thing they're planning, does anyone know if the European leagues do anything similar?

 

[Kingpin794]

Depends on what you're asking. Which league is the quality of competition the highest and which league is the best for development are two different questions.

It's not a junior league but the NCAA route I think is best for developing. Less games, more coaching, better facilities with much more time in the weight room. Just more of a whole person adolescent experience than riding a rickety bus to Prince Albert or Sudbury. Extra marks if you get to do the USNTDP before hand.

The dub is having a renaissance, quite a few 1st round picks in the last 5-6 years. I think it could really be any of the OHL, USHL, or the WHL depending on the year. Looking forward to that new junior competition summit thing they're planning, does anyone know if the European leagues do anything similar?

-Its a really good system for guys that know they need more time. If you think that you're going to have a hard time getting a pro contract by 20, NCAA is a great option. Can play against men and train until 22/23. Get a contract then and be at the same place as CHL players of the same age are at. Same point, different paths.

-I mean that might be true if you are lucky enough to go to one of the big names like Michigan, Minnesota, BC, BU etc. But can't imagine schools like Clarkson, Niagara, Union, and so on have facilities that are better than the top CHL clubs. In the end, top clubs have top facilities no matter the league.

-Yeah. Just riding a bus to Houghton, Marquette and Bemidji instead. So much better. This isn't a knock on those college towns either. Just a fact that the travel grind is real in both systems.

-20ish players out of the entire USA talent pool for an age group. So essentially nobody. And even then, you better hope you get top 6 time or top 2 pairing on D. I think the USHL would be way better off if the DIDN'T have the NTDP. Let those guys spread out to the entire league instead of being on one All Star squad. Truly build the depth up in the USHL.

 

[bigdog16]

-Its a really good system for guys that know they need more time. If you think that you're going to have a hard time getting a pro contract by 20, NCAA is a great option. Can play against men and train until 22/23. Get a contract then and be at the same place as CHL players of the same age are at. Same point, different paths.

-I mean that might be true if you are lucky enough to go to one of the big names like Michigan, Minnesota, BC, BU etc. But can't imagine schools like Clarkson, Niagara, Union, and so on have facilities that are better than the top CHL clubs. In the end, top clubs have top facilities no matter the league.

-Yeah. Just riding a bus to Houghton, Marquette and Bemidji instead. So much better. This isn't a knock on those college towns either. Just a fact that the travel grind is real in both systems.

-20ish players out of the entire USA talent pool for an age group. So essentially nobody. And even then, you better hope you get top 6 time or top 2 pairing on D. I think the USHL would be way better off if the DIDN'T have the NTDP. Let those guys spread out to the entire league instead of being on one All Star squad. Truly build the depth up in the USHL.

Facilities at Clarskon, Union, Niagara are certainly better than any CHL club. Its not close.

The London Knights are worth 23 million.

The endowment at the 3 schools you mentioned is hundreds of millions of dollars.

 

[Kingpin794]

Facilities at Clarskon, Union, Niagara are certainly better than any CHL club. Its not close.

The London Knights are worth 23 million.

The endowment at the 3 schools you mentioned is hundreds of millions of dollars.

I wouldn't worry about the absolute worth of a CHL club. Just like I shouldn't have discounted smaller schools. The ownership groups of most of CHL clubs are either former NHL players, multi millionaire business types, or a combination there of. They get plenty of money injected into them. Most teams run at a loss. They're just status symbols and tax right offs for those guys.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

The Dub's talent pool was overrated for awhile in terms of producing top NHL talent, but it's always had good teams and the talent pool has gotten better and better with minor hockey centralizing & strengthening into the sports school academy minor hockey concept.

The top end of the O is really damn good, which means the middle is still pretty good too. It isn't as strong as it used to be, but still strong.

The talent level of the Q has weakened but they still have some good teams. I think the bottom level teams in the Q are significantly worse than the bottom of the O and the Dub.

The USHL has really improved, with more Canadian and European talent coming in, plus almost every Minnesotan and New Englander spends a "prep" season or two in the league now after finishing HS/HS-Prep. I would say it has gotten mildly overrated, some of the USHL teams are still dog crap.

 

[hypereconomist]

MHL can be compared to USHL, OHL, WHL right ?

If I had to make an educated guess, the MHL as a whole is probably on par with the USHL - i.e. better than Canadian Junior A, but not as good as the CHL.

The best MHL players are playing pro in the KHL and VHL, or overseas in North America. We've seen the affect of that on leagues like USHL and Jr. A where the hockey just isn't as good as it could be because the absolute best junior players are playing in better leagues.

Not unlike the KHL, there's also probably quite a bit of talent dilution and a huge disparity of overall skill-level across the MHL due to the number of teams. The MHL has 38 teams compared to the CHL's 60 teams, but potentially a fifth of the number of junior-aged players as Canada as its player-base (assuming the ratio of total registered players between the countries is the same or a similar ratio for junior-aged players). Teams affiliated with the "big" KHL clubs that have resources and money to attract the best Russian junior players could probably hold their own against an average CHL team, but not so much for the smaller and unaffiliated MHL teams.

The MHL hosted a tournament called the Junior Club World Cup throughout the '10s. It's hard to find game-by-game information, but MHL teams were the tournament winners for 7 of the 9 years the tournament ran. The OHL sent a team in 2012-13, where a fairly pedestrian Sudbury Wolves team won the tournament. MHL teams were routinely beating the USHL teams in the few years that the USHL sent a team, but only by small margins (score-wise).

In the last year of that tournament (2019-20 season), Lokomotiv Yaroslavl beat a team of AJHL all-stars in the finals. Loko Yaroslavl was the MHL champion that year and had a great team with seven players that were eventually selected in the NHL draft (e.g. Nik Kovalenko and Grigori Denisenko), but only eeked out a 3-0 win against a team of all-stars from Canada's third-best Junior A league.

 

[Bounces R Way]

-Its a really good system for guys that know they need more time. If you think that you're going to have a hard time getting a pro contract by 20, NCAA is a great option. Can play against men and train until 22/23. Get a contract then and be at the same place as CHL players of the same age are at. Same point, different paths.

I think it's a real good system period. Should be noted that Macklin Celebrini, a Canadian born player #1 overall with a dad involved in pro sports chose the USHL to NCAA route. I also believe the NCAA to be the most NHL similar game, 4 clear lines, better defenses and goalies than the CHL, more systems play and more team oriented generally.

Don't get me wrong the CHL is high talent hockey, but there's also a junior mindset. It has to be entertaining to draw, CHL teams usually still have a general need of making some money.

-I mean that might be true if you are lucky enough to go to one of the big names like Michigan, Minnesota, BC, BU etc. But can't imagine schools like Clarkson, Niagara, Union, and so on have facilities that are better than the top CHL clubs. In the end, top clubs have top facilities no matter the league.

If you're good enough at hockey then those big names should at least have had a conversation. College campuses have shit like pools, saunas, full athletic performance offices with chiros and other trainers.

-Yeah. Just riding a bus to Houghton, Marquette and Bemidji instead. So much better. This isn't a knock on those college towns either. Just a fact that the travel grind is real in both systems.

The difference is that's a once a week ride, CHL teams play multiple games a week and take prolonged road trips.

-20ish players out of the entire USA talent pool for an age group. So essentially nobody. And even then, you better hope you get top 6 time or top 2 pairing on D. I think the USHL would be way better off if the DIDN'T have the NTDP. Let those guys spread out to the entire league instead of being on one All Star squad. Truly build the depth up in the USHL.

That's why I said extra marks. Having even marginal success playing top 6 on the NTDP can almost guarantee being picked in the first 3 rounds. I wish Hockey Canada had their own draft year all star team that played CHL teams, at least for part of the CHL season. Better competition breeds better competitors.

 

[Zine]

The MHL hosted a tournament called the Junior Club World Cup throughout the '10s. It's hard to find game-by-game information, but MHL teams were the tournament winners for 7 of the 9 years the tournament ran. The OHL sent a team in 2012-13, where a fairly pedestrian Sudbury Wolves team won the tournament. MHL teams were routinely beating the USHL teams in the few years that the USHL sent a team, but only by small margins (score-wise).

The CHL sent a representative 3 times to that tournament.

2012-13 - Sudbury (Gold medal)
2013-14 - Sudbury (6th place)
2014-15 - Cape Breton (8th place)

 

[trick9]

MHL has sunked like the KHL has over the years. It's miles below any of the top junior leagues these days.

 

[Zine]

MHL has sunked like the KHL has over the years. It's miles below any of the top junior leagues these days.

Nonsense.

The CHL, USHL, U20 SM-sarja, J20 Nationell and MHL are all on a similar level in the big picture. Of course there exists a hierarchy, but the difference isn't that significant. Teams from any one of these leagues can defeat each-other on a given day.
We're not talking about the Austrian or Slovenian U20 league here.

 

[Harvey Dent]

1: WHL
2: OHL
3: MHL (Russia)
4: USHL
5: U20 SM-Sarja (Finland)
6: QMJHL
7: Superelit (Sweden)
8: DNL U20 (Germany)
9: U-20 Elit (Switzerland)
10: Czech U20
11: Iceysl (Austria)

Would be my bet. Could be that i overate some european leagues. Perhaps BCHL, NAHL and USDP should be on the list.

This is the worst list I've ever seen. Jesus Christ.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

I think it's a real good system period. Should be noted that Macklin Celebrini, a Canadian born player #1 overall with a dad involved in pro sports chose the USHL to NCAA route. I also believe the NCAA to be the most NHL similar game, 4 clear lines, better defenses and goalies than the CHL, more systems play and more team oriented generally.

Don't get me wrong the CHL is high talent hockey, but there's also a junior mindset. It has to be entertaining to draw, CHL teams usually still have a general need of making some money.


If you're good enough at hockey then those big names should at least have had a conversation. College campuses have shit like pools, saunas, full athletic performance offices with chiros and other trainers.



The difference is that's a once a week ride, CHL teams play multiple games a week and take prolonged road trips.



That's why I said extra marks. Having even marginal success playing top 6 on the NTDP can almost guarantee being picked in the first 3 rounds. I wish Hockey Canada had their own draft year all star team that played CHL teams, at least for part of the CHL season. Better competition breeds better competitors.

I don't. I like how much the junior team means to these small/mid sized towns across Canada. Hockey is already elitist enough, I don't need another junior all star team

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

If I had to make an educated guess, the MHL as a whole is probably on par with the USHL - i.e. better than Canadian Junior A, but not as good as the CHL.

The best MHL players are playing pro in the KHL and VHL, or overseas in North America. We've seen the affect of that on leagues like USHL and Jr. A where the hockey just isn't as good as it could be because the absolute best junior players are playing in better leagues.

Not unlike the KHL, there's also probably quite a bit of talent dilution and a huge disparity of overall skill-level across the MHL due to the number of teams. The MHL has 38 teams compared to the CHL's 60 teams, but potentially a fifth of the number of junior-aged players as Canada as its player-base (assuming the ratio of total registered players between the countries is the same or a similar ratio for junior-aged players). Teams affiliated with the "big" KHL clubs that have resources and money to attract the best Russian junior players could probably hold their own against an average CHL team, but not so much for the smaller and unaffiliated MHL teams.

The MHL hosted a tournament called the Junior Club World Cup throughout the '10s. It's hard to find game-by-game information, but MHL teams were the tournament winners for 7 of the 9 years the tournament ran. The OHL sent a team in 2012-13, where a fairly pedestrian Sudbury Wolves team won the tournament. MHL teams were routinely beating the USHL teams in the few years that the USHL sent a team, but only by small margins (score-wise).

In the last year of that tournament (2019-20 season), Lokomotiv Yaroslavl beat a team of AJHL all-stars in the finals. Loko Yaroslavl was the MHL champion that year and had a great team with seven players that were eventually selected in the NHL draft (e.g. Nik Kovalenko and Grigori Denisenko), but only eeked out a 3-0 win against a team of all-stars from Canada's third-best Junior A league.

USHL is at least better than QMJHL.

Getting close to the other two leagues. I don't think you can blanket say it's worse than the CHL. It's worse than certain CHL leagues. Not all of them anymore.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

USHL is at least better than QMJHL.

Getting close to the other two leagues. I don't think you can blanket say it's worse than the CHL. It's worse than certain CHL leagues. Not all of them anymore.

It's hard to compare the USHL to the CHL leagues. Considering the USHL gets a ton of 18, 19, and 20 year old players who've aged out of HS, HS-Prep, and minor hockey and use the league as a prep league before they go into the NCAA, and NCAA coaches who don't have enough roster spots park recruits there to develop before they come in. That just doesn't happen in the CHL.