What is the Oiler Achille’s Heel to a Championship

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I was talking about a coaching change. You took it away from that. I posed the question to you and then asked why you didn’t answer. Why would I answer my own question? I asked for yours…

Time to ignore.

Lmao you want to replace the coach and I’m talking about the guy who’s going to hire his replacement. If Holland is a figurehead and nothing more then replace him first. Then work on the coach.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

Like I said in the PGT, four players eating 43% of the cap up. You can only have two high ticket players coming in around $20 million and the rest used to balance a competitive roster.

Nurse is over paid by about $3 million in my opinion, maybe more. Campbell overpaid by $2 million. I wouldn't have given McDavid $12.5 million after his entry level deal expired. I don't care what calibre of player he is.

Look at the holes in this roster. No balance in the forward group. Shoddy D. Shoddy goaltending. It's been that way forever with this team because of inflated contracts.

They're years from being legit cup contenders, unless they can find a taker or takers for $14.25 million in cap and mostly, inflated contracts and use that money for another Ekholm, a goalie and a top 6 forward.

 

[Uindicator]

You can change the coach however many times you like, but if your so called captains of this team (McDrai, Nurse) don’t have the leadership capabilities to motivate their team, then it’s all for show. It’s the Edmonton curse , once these kids get paid and treated like gods here, they become arrogant pricks, not so much Mcdavid but nurse and Drai stick out like a sore thumb as arrogant asses, nothing like the blue collar city which is Edmonton

 

[Sra1974]

Having to play the games seems like the issue to me.

 

[guymez]

Like I said in the PGT, four players eating 43% of the cap up. You can only have two high ticket players coming in around $20 million and the rest used to balance a competitive roster.

Nurse is over paid by about $3 million in my opinion, maybe more. Campbell overpaid by $2 million. I wouldn't have given McDavid $12.5 million after his entry level deal expired. I don't care what calibre of player he is.

Look at the holes in this roster. No balance in the forward group. Shoddy D. Shoddy goaltending. It's been that way forever with this team because of inflated contracts.

They're years from being legit cup contenders, unless they can find a taker or takers for $14.25 million in cap and mostly, inflated contracts and use that money for another Ekholm, a goalie and a top 6 forward.

I think it all comes down to mismanagement.
In the beginning it started with Katz and his boys on the bus buddies. Unfortunately that didnt change much because Katz decided to give the fate of this team over to a bumbling fool like Nicholson.
Every single GM hired after that (including Holland who is probably the best of the Nicholson hires) has mismanaged critical aspects of this team.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

I think it all comes down to mismanagement.
In the beginning it started with Katz and the his boys on the bus buddies. Unfortunately that didnt change much because Katz decided to give the fate of this team over to a bumbling fool like Nicholson.
Every single GM hired after that (including Holland who is probably the best of the Nicholson hires) has mismanaged critical aspects of this team.

Yep, plenty of blame and shade to throw around from shit draft picks flopping to bad UFA deals but I still toss some anger towards the players and their salary demands/contracts. We know they'd get max term and dollars but at the end of the day, how much money does one person need? Look at how much your own salary cap hit is eating which makes your GM try to get other players to take less or sign guys from the discount bin and hope they outplay their contract. That's not a recipe for success.

I'm really starting to despise pro athletes- lol. So much entitlement and greed. "It's a business" is their common mantra. We never heard this in the 80s and 90s and there was a helluva lot more player loyalty to franchises then there is now when most chase the biggest dollar sign. Sure it's technically a business but it's also a team game.

Rant over.

For now.

 

[McOilers97]

I can't be convinced that this is a Woodcroft thing.

Why is the team's battle level so subpar in the first 10 days of the season?
Just about every top 6 forward does a fly-by whenever they have a chance to deliver a check.
Players' engagement in all 3 zones is often either a) only with their stick, not with body position or b) no engagement at all.

Effort should NEVER be a problem this early in the season - it's too damn early to have accumulated any significant fatigue. This is a player thing that one new goalie or one new d-man won't solve.

The good thing is that it IS solvable internally with a better commitment from all 18 skaters (we've seen them do it for stretches before). The bad thing is that this team's default habits seem to be bad habits, and nothing has ever really stuck.

 

[McOilers97]

Yep, plenty of blame and shade to throw around from shit draft picks flopping to bad UFA deals but I still toss some anger towards the players and their salary demands/contracts. We know they'd get max term and dollars but at the end of the day, how much money does one person need? Look at how much your own salary cap hit is eating which makes your GM try to get other players to take less or sign guys from the discount bin and hope they outplay their contract. That's not a recipe for success.

I'm really starting to despise pro athletes- lol. So much entitlement and greed. "It's a business" is their common mantra. We never heard this in the 80s and 90s and there was a helluva lot more player loyalty to franchises then there is now when most chase the biggest dollar sign. Sure it's technically a business but it's also a team game.

Rant over.

For now.

I'm frustrated with them too. I know professional sports demands a very high level of performance, and you have to be in the top 1% of 1% of athletes to get to this level, but even the top players on this team only have to play hard for a total of about 90 minutes per week. Why does it seem like that is more than anyone is willing to give, despite their lip-service about how badly they want to win?

 

[K1984]

I'm frustrated with them too. I know professional sports demands a very high level of performance, and you have to be in the top 1% of 1% of athletes to get to this level, but even the top players on this team only have to play hard for a total of about 90 minutes per week. Why does it seem like that is more than anyone is willing to give, despite their lip-service about how badly they want to win?

It's especially damning when you watch other games around the league. Literally no other team does this, especially this early in the season.

Teams lose because they stink or are mismatched, but no other team is losing games strictly because they refuse to work hard and lack focus. That is uniquely an Oiler phenomenon at this exact point in time.

 

[Soundwave]

I can't be convinced that this is a Woodcroft thing.

Why is the team's battle level so subpar in the first 10 days of the season?
Just about every top 6 forward does a fly-by whenever they have a chance to deliver a check.
Players' engagement in all 3 zones is often either a) only with their stick, not with body position or b) no engagement at all.

Effort should NEVER be a problem this early in the season - it's too damn early to have accumulated any significant fatigue. This is a player thing that one new goalie or one new d-man won't solve.

The good thing is that it IS solvable internally with a better commitment from all 18 skaters (we've seen them do it for stretches before). The bad thing is that this team's default habits seem to be bad habits, and nothing has ever really stuck.

You need an obsessive systems coach with a giant ass ego (hate to say it).

I'll put it this way -- who is a coach who will still be angry and look like someone pissed in their cornflakes even after like say a 5-3 win because they won strictly on offensive talent but weren't really playing with any structure.

That is the coach this team needs.

 

[Missing smitty]

You need an obsessive systems coach with a giant ass ego (hate to say it).

I'll put it this way -- who is a coach who will still be angry and look like someone pissed in their cornflakes even after like say a 5-3 win because they won strictly on offensive talent but weren't really playing with any structure.

That is the coach this team needs.

That's a coach who gets tuned out after 3 losses. The days of yelling and screaming are over. Head coaches need to be psychologists as much as tacticians.

When you have guys who have been basically groomed since early childhood that they're the best, yelling and screaming coming from a guy who couldn't hold their jock on the ice will get tuned out so fast it wouldn't be funny.

 

[Soundwave]

That's a coach who gets tuned out after 3 losses. The days of yelling and screaming are over. Head coaches need to be psychologists as much as tacticians.

When you have guys who have been basically groomed since early childhood that they're the best, yelling and screaming coming from a guy who couldn't hold their jock on the ice will get tuned out so fast it wouldn't be funny.

How do we know, we've never really tried it.

It's clear babying them doesn't work. They are not ever going to learn to play any kind of defensive system, basically the GM is going to have to find two more top 4 D for this team to realistically do anything, and good luck with that.

It took Holland 4 years just to get an Ekholm tier player.

 

[brentashton]

You need an obsessive systems coach with a giant ass ego (hate to say it).

I'll put it this way -- who is a coach who will still be angry and look like someone pissed in their cornflakes even after like say a 5-3 win because they won strictly on offensive talent but weren't really playing with any structure.

That is the coach this team needs.

Woodcraft checks the huge ego box.

I don’t disagree with your comments on needing a coach that demands (and can command) commitment to a game plan and system versus the freelancing, let’s go get some goals on the PP and hope for the best approach that seems to happen with this group.

I thought that was coming this year with all the chatter about commitment to defensive play this year, but after watching the preseason games and now 4 reg season games in, either the system is flawed, the players don’t understand it, or what I fear, when it gets right down to it, they prefer to freelance and do their thing.

 

[Soundwave]

Woodcraft checks the huge ego box.

I don’t disagree with your comments on needing a coach that demands (and can command) commitment to a game plan and system versus the freelancing, let’s go get some goals on the PP and hope for the best approach that seems to happen with this group.

I thought that was coming this year with all the chatter about commitment to defensive play this year, but after watching the preseason games and now 4 reg season games in, either the system is flawed, the players don’t understand it, or what I fear, when it gets right down to it, they prefer to freelance and do their thing.

Woodcroft doesn't have a huge ego in that way.

I mean an ego in terms of they believe in THEIR system so much that they will be upset even if the team wins but they cheated outside of the system to get that win.

But guys like a Torts or Sutter or Babcock, are stubborn asses. But that is probably what this group needs.

You need someone who will not bend and someone who will rip the team even after a win.

The whole defensive setup this team has needs to be completely thrown out, trashed and rebuilt from the ground up with each player being specifically told exactly what is expected of them and then held to unwavering account.

You need someone who is not going to be impressed that the team won because McDavid dangled through 3 players to score the game winner.

 

[brentashton]

That's a coach who gets tuned out after 3 losses. The days of yelling and screaming are over. Head coaches need to be psychologists as much as tacticians.

When you have guys who have been basically groomed since early childhood that they're the best, yelling and screaming coming from a guy who couldn't hold their jock on the ice will get tuned out so fast it wouldn't be funny.

Yes. This group needs a players’ coach who can be even kinder and gentler than JW. No effin thanks.

Look at Bones in Wpg Or in his recent Dallas run. He is a caring and nurturing man, but whoa, get out of his jet stream if you aren’t going to dig in and play the way he expects. You can be demanding and commanding but still be a human being.

 

[guymez]

Woodcraft checks the huge ego box.

I don’t disagree with your comments on needing a coach that demands (and can command) commitment to a game plan and system versus the freelancing, let’s go get some goals on the PP and hope for the best approach that seems to happen with this group.

I thought that was coming this year with all the chatter about commitment to defensive play this year, but after watching the preseason games and now 4 reg season games in, either the system is flawed, the players don’t understand it, or what I fear, when it gets right down to it, they prefer to freelance and do their thing.

There might be a little bit of credibility to this notion that the team is playing confused because the system hasnt been ingrained yet. That could be a factor in being out of position defensively but it doesnt explain all the flybys we are seeing in every game.
That is more about a commitment to hard work.

They are playing in their heads though and not just reacting and that tends to mess up a lot of what is required to win.
Its possible that being in their heads too much is playing a bigger role than we think.

 

[Missing smitty]

Yes. This group needs a players’ coach who can be even kinder and gentler than JW. No effin thanks.

Look at Bones in Wpg Or in his recent Dallas run. He is a caring and nurturing man, but whoa, get out of his jet stream if you aren’t going to dig in and play the way he expects. You can be demanding and commanding but still be a human being.

That's the thing, you can be demanding, but the days of a guy just being a dick are long gone. You just can't do it. At this point, it's more on the players than the coaches. At no point should someone getting paid millions to play a children's game need someone to motivate them. Blaming the coaches "style" is a cop out. Blame their tactics all day, but it shouldn't be their job to get a bunch of entitled adults to do their job.

 

[Soundwave]

There might be a little bit of credibility to this notion that the team is playing confused because the system hasnt been ingrained yet. That could be a factor in being out of position defensively but it doesnt explain all the flybys we are seeing in every game.
That is more about a commitment to hard work.

They are playing in their heads though and not just reacting and that tends to mess up a lot of what is required to win.
Its possible that being in their heads too much is playing a bigger role than we think.

Don't think it's a systems thing. Learning a zone defense and being given 3 weeks to do so is not hard.

This is a "this team just isn't good defensively" thing. They don't have the personnel.

Bouchard is a weak defender. Ceci is a weak defender. Kulak is a bottom pairing defender. Nurse is a top 4 D but he also has his routine adventures into Stupid Town. Ekholm is really the only guy of the 6 who's a pretty good defender and he's playing hurt and has never been a real no.1 who can carry a team either.

 

[Missing smitty]

Don't think it's a systems thing. Learning a zone defense and being given 3 weeks to do so is not hard.

This is a "this team just isn't good defensively" thing. They don't have the personnel.

Bouchard is a weak defender. Ceci is a weak defender. Kulak is a bottom pairing defender. Nurse is a top 4 D but he also has his routine adventures into Stupid Town. Ekholm is really the only guy of the 6 who's a pretty good defender and he's playing hurt and has never been a real no.1 who can carry a team either.

They were playing hard man defence last year in the playoffs, it's absolutely the systems. They aren't good enough defenders to go chasing guys around. Zone is easier for guys who are weaker defensively.

 

[brentashton]

That's the thing, you can be demanding, but the days of a guy just being a dick are long gone. You just can't do it. At this point, it's more on the players than the coaches. At no point should someone getting paid millions to play a children's game need someone to motivate them. Blaming the coaches "style" is a cop out. Blame their tactics all day, but it shouldn't be their job to get a bunch of entitled adults to do their job.

Right.

So you were the only one to bring “yelling and screaming” into the dialogue. We both agree that is not productive.

 

[Soundwave]

They were playing hard man defence last year in the playoffs, it's absolutely the systems. They aren't good enough defenders to go chasing guys around. Zone is easier for guys who are weaker defensively.

A D-corps that has 5/7 bottom pair D (Kulak, Bouchard, Ceci, Desharnais, Broberg) and only two top 4 D (Ekholm, Nurse) and neither of those top 4 D are an actual no.1 is going to struggle just on the face of it.

Unless you have a systems coach that is a defensive genius (like a Trotz, Sutter, to a lesser extent Tortorella) or one of the top goalies in the game, you're going to get exposed.

That's just all there is to it. You can't expect great results from an objectively poor group of defensemen without there being some kind of other X factor at play (defensive genius coach or superstar goalie) which the Oilers don't have.

 

[Missing smitty]

Right.

So you were the only one to bring “yelling and screaming” into the dialogue. We both agree that is not productive.

There has to be a point where it's not the coach though. The problem is most people think that demanding means go get the hard ass who will "whip them into shape".

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

I want to change my answer to The Oilers are biggest Achilles heel to the Oilers winning a cup.

 

[Missing smitty]

A D-corps that has 5/7 bottom pair D (Kulak, Bouchard, Ceci, Desharnais, Broberg) and only two top 4 D (Ekholm, Nurse) and neither of those top 4 D are an actual no.1 is going to struggle just on the face of it.

Unless you have a systems coach that is a defensive genius (like a Trotz, Sutter, to a lesser extent Tortorella) or one of the top goalies in the game, you're going to get exposed.

That's just all there is to it. You can't expect great results from an objectively poor group of defensemen without there being some kind of other X factor at play (defensive genius coach or superstar goalie) which the Oilers don't have.

The problem is, they don't need elite defense. They don't need to play lock down, late 90s Devils hockey. Sutter hockey is gone, Trotz style hockey isn't what they need either.

They need to focus on the strengths they do have which is transition and puck moving. Lean into the fact that they're one of the fastest teams in the league, but they're "system" doesn't exploit. A guy like Manson was the exact opposite style of defenseman that they have.

 

[Soundwave]

The problem is, they don't need elite defense. They don't need to play lock down, late 90s Devils hockey. Sutter hockey is gone, Trotz style hockey isn't what they need either.

They need to focus on the strengths they do have which is transition and puck moving. Lean into the fact that they're one of the fastest teams in the league, but they're "system" doesn't exploit. A guy like Manson was the exact opposite style of defenseman that they have.

They kinda do.

No one's saying they have to be the 90s NJD, but you have to be able to play some freaking defense.

And this is coming from someone who doesn't like defensive hockey and would rather the league revert back to the 80s of just pure run n' gun pond hockey.

You can't win the sloppy way the Oilers play D and we don't have the high end no.1 puck moving D to play a puck moving style. Our D are brain dead half the time with the puck on their stick, last night in one memorable sequence Nurse had McDavid revving up and ready to receive a pass and instead he looks off McDavid and aimlessly drifts into the zone and fires a nothing muffin wrister towards the goalie.

Totally brain dead. We don't have the puck movers on the back end to play transition hockey. It doesn't help that our D crater under any kind of pressure, especially Bouchard so that even if we tried to play a transition game the opponent can easily adjust and take that away just by forechecking hard.