Speculation: What happens with Carey Price?

[abo9]

I question just how much validity there is to the idea of a goalie being better in the playoffs. It makes sense with other players as the game is played a bit differently vs. a regular season game, but I'm not seeing how the game would feel much different from a goalies POV.
Not trashing Price here. I do put quite a bit of stock in media/players/coaches almost unanimously calling him the best goalie for the past 10 years.

It's mostly mental. I meam, would you not be much more psyched up when playing for the Cup where every game has a clear meaning, vs in the regular season?

Also, if the game is played differently up front, it will also have an effect on what the goalie sees on the ice, and some goalies are better when facing some types of ahots vs others.

I also don't think Price is so much worst in the RS. He's been dealing woth injuries over the years, and put behind super crappy defenses. In the playoffs there was the advantage of playing a more contained game and knowing the opponents.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Lol... putting quotation marks around something I never said.

I posted straightforward numbers from NHL.com from the past 5 years. If you don't like the results, I suggest you email the NHL and argue with the statisticians.

I copied and pasted the words in quotes directly from your post. In fact, here it is bolded in the post where you definitely said it.

What is it you don't understand? All four divisions had the same rules - top-4 teams made the playoffs. There was no 'special' rule implemented just for Montreal's benefit.

And as you acknowledged, having a top-4 playoff cutoff is nothing new in the NHL. Just like having different combinations of teams in each division is nothing new. The only difference with 2021, obviously, is each division only played internally, which is precisely why there is no legitimate way to rank teams overall. There was no 'overall'.

You're simply looking for excuses to avoid straightforward facts, which contradict your original comment that Price only had a single strong playoffs. He was the top playoff goalie in the past 5 years and among the top goalies in the past 10 years (check that yourself if you want).

If you didn't mean that he's "the top playoff goalie in the past 5 years", as you very clearly stated, and instead meant to say that he has the best SV% among playoff goalies, then that's on you. There's no argument that he's at the top of the playoff SV% list. But, just having the best SV% doesn't make you the top playoff goalie. Winning the Cup twice and adding a Conn Smythe to that is the current bar for being the top playoff goalie, and Price isn't anywhere close to that level.

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

Winning the Cup twice and adding a Conn Smythe to that is the current bar for being the top playoff goalie, and Price isn't anywhere close to that level.

Tampa Bay is the most stacked team we've seen in years and Habs are horrible dont you think that makes a huge difference

Even Hasek the best goalie of all time coudlnt give Buffalo a cup

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Which is why it’s so oddly and conspicuously weird Habs fans are always starting threads to trade Price. If they love and have this emotional connection to Price no other fan base appreciates, why this intense desire to trade Price? How is the option, Price plays out his contract in Montreal so obnoxious and toxic to the Habs fan base.

I suspect it’s the same reason you do. Price is a pretty bad regular season goalie. And his play has eroded quite a bit as he has hit his mid 30s. No team wants to spend $5.25mm + per year to get 90% save percentage play with injury and addiction concerns. And hope that his indifference and lousy regular season play somehow becomes great in the playoffs. Assuming he even gets you there. What a stupid risk to take for another franchise.

The solution is so freaking obvious. Price stays in Montreal for the balance of his contract.

I mostly agree, and don't think Price is moving anytime soon. But, if Price can stay healthy and play well for the next year or two, there could easily be a market for him in the future. But he needs to play well enough to eliminate any questions about the last 4 regular seasons, and doing that by next TDL is going to be a challenge. Plus, there's still the question of how much Montreal wants in return for retaining however much for however long, and that should go down pretty significantly with every passing year.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Tampa Bay is the most stacked team we've seen in yearssssss and Habs are horrible dont you think that makes a huge difference

Even Hasek the best goalie of all time coudlnt give Buffalo a cup

Playing on a good team does make a difference, but that doesn't mean Vasi hasn't also played extremely well to deserve the title of top playoff performer. If Price were as great as Habs fans claim, you shouldn't need to throw his teammates under the bus to explain why he's only been out of the first round a handful of times in his career.

And, you're right, Hasek didn't win a Cup in Buffalo. But he did drag them to the playoffs pretty much every year, and won 6 Vezinas, 2 Harts (and was a finalist 3 other times), 2 Pearsons, and 2 Jennings over an 8 year period, so there's a pretty good body of evidence for his greatness. Price had a great season back in 2014-15, and since then, he's been average at best. 38 good playoff games over 5 years doesn't change that.

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

Playing on a good team does make a difference, but that doesn't mean Vasi hasn't also played extremely well to deserve the title of top playoff performer. If Price were as great as Habs fans claim, you shouldn't need to throw his teammates under the bus to explain why he's only been out of the first round a handful of times in his career.

And, you're right, Hasek didn't win a Cup in Buffalo. But he did drag them to the playoffs pretty much every year, and won 6 Vezinas, 2 Harts (and was a finalist 3 other times), 2 Pearsons, and 2 Jennings over an 8 year period, so there's a pretty good body of evidence for his greatness. Price had a great season back in 2014-15, and since then, he's been average at best. 38 good playoff games over 5 years doesn't change that.

Yea Hasek is the greatest goalie of all time imo and playing behind a good team makes a huge difference do you think Vasi wins a cup or a conn smythe playing on the habs because im pretty sure Price would definitely win cups and conn smythes with tampa,he was a finalist to win it last year on a shitty habs team

That finals wasnt even fair last year Tampa is sooo much better then us and theres so much a goalie can do,to be honnest we didnt even deserve to beat the leafs in the first round but Price was just amazing and robbed that series,same thing with Pittsburgh the year before

Hes been dragging a mediocre team hes whole career and nobody can take that away from him

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Yea Hasek is the greatest goalie of all time imo and playing behind a good team makes a huge difference do you think Vasi wins a cup or a conn smythe playing on the habs because im pretty sure Price would definitely win cups and conn smythes with tampa,he was a finalist to win it last year on a shitty habs team

That finals wasnt even fair last year Tampa is sooo much better then us and theres so much a goalie can do,to be honnest we didnt even deserve to beat the leafs in the first round but Price was just amazing and robbed that series,same thing with Pittsburgh the year before

Hes been dragging a mediocre team hes whole career and nobody can take that away from him

So, you're "pretty sure" that something totally unprovable would "definitely" happen, and you think that's a convincing argument in Price's favor? Sorry, but Vasi has actually won and I don't need to imagine anything. If you want to pretend it's all the team, and he's not the best playoff goalie in the NHL right now, that's on you. If you want me to believe those things, your current reasoning isn't even moving the needle.

And, it's a nice story that the underdog Habs made the Finals, but that simply isn't enough for Price to be better than the guys who have actually won, no matter how much you want to pretend that those wins were all the team, while Price's were all his own.

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

So, you're "pretty sure" that something totally unprovable would "definitely" happen, and you think that's a convincing argument in Price's favor? Sorry, but Vasi has actually won and I don't need to imagine anything. If you want to pretend it's all the team, and he's not the best playoff goalie in the NHL right now, that's on you. If you want me to believe those things, your current reasoning isn't even moving the needle.

And, it's a nice story that the underdog Habs made the Finals, but that simply isn't enough for Price to be better than the guys who have actually won, no matter how much you want to pretend that those wins were all the team, while Price's were all his own.

This isnt the NBA buddy theres so much one player can do Mcdavid is by far the best NHL player right now but would you say Point is better because he won a cup or has proven more in the playoffs

And yes switch Price and Vasi and Carey is easily the one with the better stats and cups Tampa is hella stacked they would of easily beat us with Jake Allen in net

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

This isnt the NBA buddy theres so much one player can do Mcdavid is by far the best NHL player right now but would you say Point is better because he won a cup or has proven more in the playoffs

And yes switch Price and Vasi and Carey is easily the one with the better stats and cups Tampa is hella stacked they would of easily beat us with Jake Allen in net

Yes, McDavid is the best NHL player right now. And that's because he's on pace for his 4th Ross in 6 years, with potentially another Hart and Pearson to go with it. No one has to imagine how well he's play if he were on a stacked team. And I don't think anyone is trying to use McDavid's 22 playoff games as proof that he's a completely different player than his regular season numbers would suggest.

And, sure, maybe Price would have Cups in Tampa. Maybe he would have Conn Smythes too. But, weren't you just saying that Vasi only won because of his stacked team? Would Price being dragged to a Cup by a team where literally anyone could be in net and allegedly still win really prove that he's better than the rest of the guys who could plausibly win in the same situation? Wouldn't being behind that team make all of Price's achievements much less impressive too?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

So, they completely changed the format for the regular season, changed all the divisions and how the playoffs work, and you want to pretend that this is just another normal season, no different than any other? Really?

The top-4 hasn't been the cutoff for the playoffs in almost 30 years. Returning to that format for a single season, due to a global pandemic, is, by definition, a special rule.

And I can't find a single time in NHL history, other than last year, when the divisions were completely separate mini-leagues that didn't play against each other until the 3rd round of the playoffs. Seems like that's a special rule too.

But, given that you want to pretend that Price is special and deserves to be viewed as elite based on a 38 playoff game sample where he made it further than expected in a single run (but still didn't win the Cup), I'm not surprised that you want to also pretend that you didn't need the special rules to "earn" that playoff spot.

And, what excuse do you think I'm making by pointing out that Khudobin isn't special, despite taking Dallas to the Finals? Seems extremely relevant, given what you're claiming about Price...

This is so blatantly stupid all the way through. There was nothing special about the rule or favorable for Montreal during the 2020-2021 season as everyone played by the same rules. Your posts infers an advantage to Montreal when there is none (let alone without considering how COVID completely derailed their regular season. They had to play 25 games in 40 days without practice). Calling them the 18th place is ridiculous because you can't simply extract records from one division and apply them to another. It's not how statistics work. Calgary didn't make the playoffs is what was considered a terrible division and look at them this year. Top of the league.

Comparing Price and Khudobin should not be entertained for one second. Utterly silly.

 

[Lshap]

I copied and pasted the words in quotes directly from your post. In fact, here it is bolded in the post where you definitely said it.



If you didn't mean that he's "the top playoff goalie in the past 5 years", as you very clearly stated, and instead meant to say that he has the best SV% among playoff goalies, then that's on you. There's no argument that he's at the top of the playoff SV% list. But, just having the best SV% doesn't make you the top playoff goalie. Winning the Cup twice and adding a Conn Smythe to that is the current bar for being the top playoff goalie, and Price isn't anywhere close to that level.

The idea that the best goalie must be from the Cup-winning team is too ridiculous to even counter.

I've posted actual numbers. You've added nothing but make-believe stories. Price's accomplishments aren't changing, no matter how you weave and dodge to avoid them.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

By the way, no team 'flukes' its way to the SCF. That's utter nonsense. Unless goals bounce off the ref's ass, you only get to the SCF by being very good. Fans use weak excuses like "Fluke" when they can't explain why a team performs better than they predicted.

It's small brain mentality.

Well, you can certainly point to the alignment of divisions and the playoffs last season as a "fluke". Don't forget, two Eastern Conference teams made the Stanley Cup Finals last season... pandemic or not, that is pretty much a fluke by definition. Is Montreal winning 3 rounds in a normal alignment? I'd have been more shocked than what happened if they had.

This is so stupid. Calgary finished at the bottom of what was considered terrible division and are now at the top of the league. Would anyone argue they got boned by the league by playing in Canada? Nobody would.

Montreal beat two legitimate contenders on the way to the Cup. What more could someone possibly want? Calling their run a fluke should immediately get someone dismissed regarding hockey opinions. How the hell can you fluke three rounds? Could anyone point to lucky bounces in Montreal's favor? Would anyone argue Montreal didn't whoop Winnipeg and Vegas?

 

[japhi]

Haven't read through the posts, but I don't see any scenario where they retain a significant amount of salary to move him. The numbers don't work - why retain 4Mm then spend another 4MM on his replacement all to end up with 8mm stacked against an starter instead of 10.5 against a guy that can drag you on a finals run?

And I know the following is an outlier opinion, but I feel like he could still be one of the best goalies in the game for the next 2-3 years. I mean he was 10 months ago, so not crazy to assume a mentally and physically healthy Price is still the best big money goalie playing. Lots of tenders with Vezina's after the age of 35, writing him off as done is way premature.

So I think he sticks around, or some team takes him at close to full pop. Just doesn't make sense to retain 4-5MM. And I think Hughes and Gorton are not into a long drawn out rebuild, so you are probably best hoping your team gets back in the playoffs while you have him in seat.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

The idea that the best goalie must be from the Cup-winning team is too ridiculous to even counter.

I've posted actual numbers. You've added nothing but make-believe stories. Price's accomplishments aren't changing, no matter how you weave and dodge to avoid them.

In the playoffs, winning is literally the only thing that matters. Pretending that having a SV% that is a whole .004 better than Vasi's 0.925 (2nd best in the NHL - with 31 more games played than Price) somehow means more than being just as good AND ALSO winning 2 Cups and a Smythe, is laughable. It's like the stupid claims that winning the Players Poll matters more than actually playing well, or that 38 playoff games over 5 years matters more than 261 regular season games of inconsistency.

And, which accomplishments are you touting, exactly? Putting up a good SV% while still losing? Is the bar really so low that this qualifies as an accomplishment? Maybe I have higher standards, but I'm not all that impressed by losing.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

In the playoffs, winning is literally the only thing that matters. Pretending that having a SV% that is a whole .004 better than Vasi's 0.925 (2nd best in the NHL - with 31 more games played than Price) somehow means more than being just as good AND ALSO winning 2 Cups and a Smythe, is laughable. It's like the stupid claims that winning the Players Poll matters more than actually playing well, or that 38 playoff games over 5 years matters more than 261 regular season games of inconsistency.

And, which accomplishments are you touting, exactly? Putting up a good SV% while still losing? Is the bar really so low that this qualifies as an accomplishment? Maybe I have higher standards, but I'm not all that impressed by losing.

Why are you arguing about nothing? No one said Price was better. But anyone who thinks Price wouldn't have won Cups if he was on Tampa the last 2 years knows nothing about hockey. Even if he was mediocre in the regular season they would have still made the playoffs.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Why are you arguing about nothing? No one said Price was better. But anyone who thinks Price wouldn't have won Cups if he was on Tampa the last 2 years knows nothing about hockey. Even if he was mediocre in the regular season they would have still made the playoffs.

The only one who believes that Price wouldn't have won at least 1 Cup with Tampa is the strawman that seems to be getting built in this thread. No one that isn't imaginary is saying he couldn't/wouldn't win in Tampa, if healthy.

But at least one Habs fan has called him the "best playoff goalie", so either the definition of the word "best" changed recently, or the guy I responded to is trying to claim Price is better than everyone else, including Vasi. I've even given him the chance to amend his statement to be "Price has the best playoff SV%". but he's pretty adamant that Price is the best.

 

[BLONG7]

I copied and pasted the words in quotes directly from your post. In fact, here it is bolded in the post where you definitely said it.



If you didn't mean that he's "the top playoff goalie in the past 5 years", as you very clearly stated, and instead meant to say that he has the best SV% among playoff goalies, then that's on you. There's no argument that he's at the top of the playoff SV% list. But, just having the best SV% doesn't make you the top playoff goalie. Winning the Cup twice and adding a Conn Smythe to that is the current bar for being the top playoff goalie, and Price isn't anywhere close to that level.

Price has consistently played for terrible teams....watching the habs, is cringeworthy at times.....just throwing that out there.
He would already have 1-2 Cups if the GM running the show for 10 years, wasn't a clown.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Price has consistently played for terrible teams....watching the habs, is cringeworthy at times.....just throwing that out there.
He would already have 1-2 Cups if the GM running the show for 10 years, wasn't a clown.

Don't worry, it's already been thrown out there. In fact, throwing the team under the bus is almost always the first step when it comes to defending Price's unearned reputation.

And, I'm sure you believe that he definitely would have won on a better team, but being certain of the unprovable doesn't make it true for the rest of us.

 

[Eco]

I just have a feeling that he'll end his career on a contender. Not many goalies are worth of a Cup and without a Cup like he is.

I don't like the idea of him in Toronto, but if the Leafs could move Tavares contract and we retained some of the salary with a 3rd team helping out, then it would honestly be the best fit.

At this point in his career, I get Ray Borque feelings about him and one day winning a cup. Whatever it takes (as long as they don't beat the Habs in the playoffs).

We are winning the Cup in the next 5 years.

 

[Lshap]

In the playoffs, winning is literally the only thing that matters. Pretending that having a SV% that is a whole .004 better than Vasi's 0.925 (2nd best in the NHL - with 31 more games played than Price) somehow means more than being just as good AND ALSO winning 2 Cups and a Smythe, is laughable. It's like the stupid claims that winning the Players Poll matters more than actually playing well, or that 38 playoff games over 5 years matters more than 261 regular season games of inconsistency.

And, which accomplishments are you touting, exactly? Putting up a good SV% while still losing? Is the bar really so low that this qualifies as an accomplishment? Maybe I have higher standards, but I'm not all that impressed by losing.

Your argument lost cohesion two days ago. First, you claim Price had a single good playoff run:

Anton Khudobin carried the Stars to the Finals in 19-20. Is he special too? Or does it take more than a single good playoff run to qualify?

When that's disproved, you duck and weave over to the next excuse – it was Covid's fault:

Now, if only he could actually earn a legitimate playoff berth without special covid rules...

When that's shown to have not benefitted Price, you duck and weave to the Importance Of Save Percentage:

Among the 28 goalies with 200 games played over the last 5 years, Price is 16th in regular season SV%, tied with James Reimer at 0.912. Over the same time, Devan Dubnyk has a 0.913 regular season SV% in 241 games played. Maybe it's just me, but I struggle to call somebody worse than Dubnyk and comparable to Reimer "pretty good, if not great".

And finally, when playoff SV% places Price on top, SV% instantly loses importance. More ducking and weaving. Suddenly it's All About Cup Wins.

Whatever point you were trying to make has left orbit and is circling a planet only you can see.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Your argument lost cohesion two days ago. First, you claim Price had a single good playoff run:


When that's disproved, you duck and weave over to the next excuse – it was Covid's fault:


When that's shown to have not benefitted Price, you duck and weave to the Importance Of Save Percentage:


And finally, when playoff SV% places Price on top, SV% instantly loses importance. More ducking and weaving. Suddenly it's All About Cup Wins.

Whatever point you were trying to make has left orbit and is circling a planet only you can see.

At least mine started with something resembling cohesion. You're claiming that losing in the first round is a "good playoff run", which is laughable.

Plus, covid is almost indisputably the big reason he got to play in the playoffs the last two years. They were 12th in the East in 2020, but still got a chance at the playoffs after covid shut down the regular season. Are we supposed to just pretend that they weren't 10 points out of the playoffs with 11 games to go, with the Rangers, Florida and Columbus in front of them with games in hand? Then, last year, they get to play in a 7 team mini-league where there isn't even a single team that finished with home ice advantage in the first round the previous year and 3 of the teams implode with injuries/covid/bad ownership. Is there a single team that benefitted more from the special covid rules than Montreal?

But, if you want to pretend that simply having the best SV%, by a margin of 0.004, means you're indisputably the best playoff goalie, despite never winning anything, you have fun with that. The reality is that Vasi is the best playoff goalie in the NHL over the last 5 years, and your insults and strawmen won't change that.

 

[BLONG7]

Don't worry, it's already been thrown out there. In fact, throwing the team under the bus is almost always the first step when it comes to defending Price's unearned reputation.

And, I'm sure you believe that he definitely would have won on a better team, but being certain of the unprovable doesn't make it true for the rest of us.

He has won championships at every level
Gold medals as such
I have to assume you don't watch the Habs but do love your stats?
We can agree to disagree
No big deal
I know what I have seen over the years

 

[Lshap]

At least mine started with something resembling cohesion. You're claiming that losing in the first round is a "good playoff run", which is laughable.

Plus, covid is almost indisputably the big reason he got to play in the playoffs the last two years. They were 12th in the East in 2020, but still got a chance at the playoffs after covid shut down the regular season. Are we supposed to just pretend that they weren't 10 points out of the playoffs with 11 games to go, with the Rangers, Florida and Columbus in front of them with games in hand? Then, last year, they get to play in a 7 team mini-league where there isn't even a single team that finished with home ice advantage in the first round the previous year and 3 of the teams implode with injuries/covid/bad ownership. Is there a single team that benefitted more from the special covid rules than Montreal?

But, if you want to pretend that simply having the best SV%, by a margin of 0.004, means you're indisputably the best playoff goalie, despite never winning anything, you have fun with that. The reality is that Vasi is the best playoff goalie in the NHL over the last 5 years, and your insults and strawmen won't change that.

Enjoy spinning fairy tales. I'll stick to these:

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

He has won championships at every level
Gold medals as such
I have to assume you don't watch the Habs but do love your stats?
We can agree to disagree
No big deal
I know what I have seen over the years

He won a championship in the AHL, back in 2007. Didn't win in the CHL, and hasn't won in the NHL. Which other levels has he won at? Are you including the 5 or 6 game international tournaments in with actual league championships?

And, sure, he was definitely in net while the extremely stacked Team Canada won those gold medals. But facing 67 shots over 5 games in the Olympics on the best team in the world, en route to gold, isn't exactly suggestive that Price was a huge difference maker in those wins. It's a nice thing to have on his resume, but I think everyone knows, deep down, that Canada could have picked almost anyone and still won those tournaments.

Even though I'm not convinced he's as great as Habs fans proclaim, when Price is on his game, I agree that he's capable of being amazing. But, he's struggled with consistency since he was injured in 2015-16, and hasn't actually achieved anything to make his 261 games of mediocrity matter less.

 

[MoneyManny]

Don't worry, it's already been thrown out there. In fact, throwing the team under the bus is almost always the first step when it comes to defending Price's unearned reputation.

And, I'm sure you believe that he definitely would have won on a better team, but being certain of the unprovable doesn't make it true for the rest of us.

So, how many Cups does Vasi have with the habs?