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What happened to Brodeur's legacy?

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I took it for granted that Brodeur is and was considered a top3 goalie. In Montreal he was our nemesis -- Marty f'n Brodeur -- he would just kill us every dang time. I never loved him because I was a Patrick Roy kid and because Brodeur kicked our ass, but it's hard to read so many posts re-evaluating him as if he's a clear cut below Roy and Hasek.

I think there are good arguments made for his slight blandness in terms of technical ability (not that I would be any expert) but he was (1) consistent, (2) reliable, and (3) a workhorse who didn't seem to suffer from fatigue. If you're building a team you'd take the consistent, reliable, workhorse over the erratic goalie with slightly better technique every damn time.

Now in terms of greatness at the position of goalie I could concede that Roy and Hasek in particular seemed more talented... but how much?

To me, the single most impressive goalie performance was indeed Tim Thomas' voodoo Stanley Cup run. Dude had an aura then and there. Brodeur had an aura every damn time we faced him. If younger chaps here felt any aura around Carey Price (that he was steady, technically sound, sturdy, etc...) Brodeur had that times two.

The better question is why is Roy considered #2 of all time? Is it only technical ability or are there any stats that favour him over Brodeur? I think the argument for Hasek is (1) certain stats and (2) the teams on which he played but Roy is easily debateable against Brodeur. It depends on your appetite and what sort of things you value in a player and in a player within a team.
 
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When I think of Martin Brodeur I think he's clearly the third best goalie of all time after Hasek/Roy. Haven't followed if public opinion seems to have fallen off over the last 5 years or so though
 
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Xirik said:
List your top 10 please.
Click to expand...

In no order besides 1, 2 and 3

Hasek
Roy
Dryden - Dryden at 3 is a hot take, I know (he played on arguably the most stacked team ever) but his resume is absolutly ridiculous, and one could argue that he was one of the most important piece on those teams.

After that, Brodeur can be argue between 4 to 10. Without too much thinking, I'd have him between 4 and 6, with Plante and Sawchuck

Plante
Brodeur
Sawchuck
Tretiak
Hall
Parent
Esposito

Brodeur can be top 5
 
jigglysquishy said:
There was never a point where Brodeur was consensus top 3 all time.

He was considered the consensus top 3 goalie for post 1980 hockey, but always below Roy and Hasek.

I have him 4th all time behind Plante, but there are strong arguments to be made to put Hall or Sawchuk or Dryden ahead.
Click to expand...

Always below Hasek and Roy? Not how I remember it. There was often debate about which of the three was best and no real way to prove it.

It's obviously hard to compare goalies from different generations so a lot of it just comes down to personal preference.
 
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ReHabs said:
I took it for granted that Brodeur is and was considered a top3 goalie. In Montreal he was our nemesis -- Marty f'n Brodeur -- he would just kill us every dang time. I never loved him because I was a Patrick Roy kid and because Brodeur kicked our ass, but it's hard to read so many posts re-evaluating him as if he's a clear cut below Roy and Hasek.

I think there are good arguments made for his slight blandness in terms of technical ability (not that I would be any expert) but he was (1) consistent, (2) reliable, and (3) a workhorse who didn't seem to suffer from fatigue. If you're building a team you'd take the consistent, reliable, workhorse over the erratic goalie with slightly better technique every damn time.

Now in terms of greatness at the position of goalie I could concede that Roy and Hasek in particular seemed more talented... but how much?

To me, the single most impressive goalie performance was indeed Tim Thomas' voodoo Stanley Cup run. Dude had an aura then and there. Brodeur had an aura every damn time we faced him. If younger chaps here felt any aura around Carey Price (that he was steady, technically sound, sturdy, etc...) Brodeur had that times two.

The better question is why is Roy considered #2 of all time? Is it only technical ability or are there any stats that favour him over Brodeur? I think the argument for Hasek is (1) certain stats and (2) the teams on which he played but Roy is easily debateable against Brodeur. It depends on your appetite and what sort of things you value in a player and in a player within a team.
Click to expand...

This topic has been beaten to death on the history of hockey section.

Latest discussion I've found has the following ranking that was voted on

1. Roy
2. Hasek
3. Plante
4. Brodeur
5. Hall
6. Sawchuk
7. Dryden
8. Tretiak
8. Brimsek
9. Benedict
10. Gardiner
 
JimEIV said:
Patrick Roy never played 70+ games

Hasek did once in his 12 year career.

Belfour played 70+ 3 times

Luongo played 70+ 4 times his career

Lundqvist played 70+ 4 times

All these goalies combined had as many 70+ games seasons as Brodeur did.

Brodeur did it 12 times.
Click to expand...

Marty was an absolute freak of nature. A horse.

His win record is as unbreakable as Gretzky's scoring record.

It'll never be broken.
 
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DearDiary said:
This topic has been beaten to death on the history of hockey section.

Latest discussion I've found has the following ranking that was voted on

1. Roy
2. Hasek
3. Plante
4. Brodeur
5. Hall
6. Sawchuk
7. Dryden
8. Tretiak
8. Brimsek
9. Benedict
10. Gardiner
Click to expand...
I prefer a consensus of commentators and debate more than a frictionless, effortless online vote.

For instance I see so many instances of people bringing up his St Louis stint, I go take a look and he played 7 games for them. Who gives a crap about that? Why should that affect his legacy?
 
ReHabs said:
I prefer a consensus of commentators and debate more than a frictionless, effortless online vote.

For instance I see so many instances of people bringing up his St Louis stint, I go take a look and he played 7 games for them. Who gives a crap about that? Why should that affect his legacy?
Click to expand...

What makes you think it was low effort? I put much more weight on polls in the HOH section compared to the regular poll section
 
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GMR said:
How about being named the best at your position and/or winning Vezina trophies? To me that's more impressive than playing forever but never reaching levels other players reached. Hasek and Roy were better players.
Click to expand...

Brodeur had some great seasons and didn't win the Vezina, mostly early in his career. There's a lot of bias in the voting. Finally he started winning his deserved Vezinas later in his career.
 
Doctor No said:
Don't forget losses. If you care about losses, Brodeur's your guy. All-time leader!

I don't actually find this a compelling argument, but in response to a ridiculously-reductionist argument like the quoted, it's useful.
Click to expand...

What is wrong with a reductionist argument?

Don't we also care about Gretzky's goals, assists, and points? Didn't he play on great teams and in a high scoring era? Do we care how well he played defense? Do we care about other intangibles?

Brodeur was the perfect fit for the Devils team. In fact you could argue that the Devils team was designed to function great with Brodeur. It's not even certain if Hasek or Roy would have been as great if they were on the Devils.
 
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Nemec said:
What is wrong with a reductionist argument?

Don't we also care about Gretzky's goals, assists, and points? Didn't he play on great teams and in a high scoring era? Do we care how well he played defense? Do we care about other intangibles?

Brodeur was the perfect fit for the Devils team. In fact you could argue that the Devils team was designed to function great with Brodeur. It's not even certain if Hasek or Roy would have been as great if they were on the Devils.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with a reductionist argument per se (and note that I complained that it wasn't just reductionist, but ridiculously-reductionist). Since you quoted my post, I'll assume that you read it - the "King of Losses" conclusion follows equally well if you live by this particular sword.

That was the point of my post.
 
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When Niedermayer and Brodeur were on the ice-pre trapezoid, it simply wasn't fair. It was mesmerizing, and frustrating. They made dump ins futile, while Stevens... err... discouraged carry-ins. And while Turco was flashier, Brodeur's decision making + timing when walking from the net were the best. The rules change permitted the cross corner dump, which simply did not work against Brodeur before the trapezoid. He saw it coming, and handled it every time.

The question about how goaltending would evolve had already cropped up before the rules change. JS Giguere had already shown how positional discipline + anticipation would become a dominant skill as a goalie, and Lundqvist went on to prove it. Neither had Luongo's talent level, but Lundqivst was arguably as good with less.

These changes make it reasonably difficult to judge Brodeur's legacy. But here's a factor that imo is worth considering: Brodeur's playstyle was (very!) athletically demanding, but not nearly as likely to injure hips and knees as the full butterfly style.
 
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ReHabs said:
I took it for granted that Brodeur is and was considered a top3 goalie. In Montreal he was our nemesis -- Marty f'n Brodeur -- he would just kill us every dang time. I never loved him because I was a Patrick Roy kid and because Brodeur kicked our ass, but it's hard to read so many posts re-evaluating him as if he's a clear cut below Roy and Hasek.

I think there are good arguments made for his slight blandness in terms of technical ability (not that I would be any expert) but he was (1) consistent, (2) reliable, and (3) a workhorse who didn't seem to suffer from fatigue. If you're building a team you'd take the consistent, reliable, workhorse over the erratic goalie with slightly better technique every damn time.

Now in terms of greatness at the position of goalie I could concede that Roy and Hasek in particular seemed more talented... but how much?

To me, the single most impressive goalie performance was indeed Tim Thomas' voodoo Stanley Cup run. Dude had an aura then and there. Brodeur had an aura every damn time we faced him. If younger chaps here felt any aura around Carey Price (that he was steady, technically sound, sturdy, etc...) Brodeur had that times two.

The better question is why is Roy considered #2 of all time? Is it only technical ability or are there any stats that favour him over Brodeur? I think the argument for Hasek is (1) certain stats and (2) the teams on which he played but Roy is easily debateable against Brodeur. It depends on your appetite and what sort of things you value in a player and in a player within a team.
Click to expand...
I'm starting to think that those of us who greatly revere him most likely remembered him during the trapezoid era.

Almost want to know every posters age before reading their comments.
 
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I don't remember any sort of consensus that Brodeur was a top 3 goalie of all-time. I would say he was in the "big 6" or whatever you would call it. Roy, Hasek, Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Brodeur. He was always one of those guys, and he still is. You can argue he's #4 perhaps. I'd slot him at #5. It is hard to decide where to put him, because in reality with the top 3-4 goalies there really isn't a wrong answer as to who is #1. But it isn't Brodeur, and I don't think ever was. But legendary and all-time great among the top 5? Absolutely. Now and at the end of his career too. This idea that he is worse than that is news to me. His career hasn't been one of those where in retirement you look at him and say "Ah, on second thought he's worse."
 
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BM67 said:
What is "The System"?

During the 20 seasons Brodeur was a starter, the Devils were 1st in fewest Shots Against, 1st in fewest Penalty Minutes, 1st in fewest Times Shorthanded, and 1st in fewest Face Offs.

In the one season Marty was injured, that fell to 12th, 9th, 9th, and 9th.

Since Marty left NJ, the Devils rank 15th, 18th, 19th, and 13th.

How's the legacy of "The System"?
Click to expand...

No one watches the Devils enough to talk about them or their legendary players besides actual Devils fans. He was more important to that system than any defensemen in it, guy almost won a Cup with Mark Fayne as his #2 dman but blah blah system.
 
jigglysquishy said:
1. Hasek
2. Roy
3. Plante
4. Brodeur
5. Hall
6. Sawchuk
7. Tretiak
8. Dryden
9. Vezina
10. Brimsek
Click to expand...
Excellent top 10. One can quibble about one or the other in terms of the ordering but even then, this is a very good 1-10 and it would be tough to say it’s not THE top 10 of the position all time. If you remove Tretiak and limit it to NHL goaltenders, then add in one of Bill Durnan, Turk Broda (vintage picks) or Grant Fuhr (modern).
 
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Anyone saying he was never considered top 3 forgets what it was like from about the time Roy retired through about 2012. Casuals especially were blinded by the records he was setting and saying not only was he up there, but he was indisputably THE best, and yes, even some talking heads on TV. Yes, it seems like the years since have calmed people down, maybe people are taking a more accurate look at his career. Hasek's reputation on the other hand seems to have improved with time. There are 6 goalies "in the conversation" for me, and Brodeur is one of them. Nobody else had the longevity and consistency he had. I'd rather have Roy in a big game, and that's the reason I put him #1, the fact that Roy turned it up come playoff time like nobody else. And I believe Hasek is the most talented goalie ever. His best was better than anyone's best. I have him over Brodeur too. Brodeur is somewhere between 3-6. Him, Sawchuk, Plante, Dryden, pick an order.
 
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WATTAGE4451 said:
Pretty sure while he was thought as a top 3 gialie, he was never thought to be as good as hasek and most still rated roy ahead as well. Problem is his sv% in relation to the league was as great as hasek. The argument he had over them was wins but that gets written off as a team stat.
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Actually it has to do with consistency and reliability.

Roy and Hasek would on occasion put out a massive dud of a game, letting in 7 (or 9 in Roy's case).

Brodeur was never blown out like that in his entire career. He never once let in 7.

He was rated top-3 due to his being the most consistent. He was also always in position where the puck just hit him. That Carey Price on roids comparison is spot on. There aren't many cross-crease diving flail saves like Roy or Hasek. Not a lot of highlight reel saves. But he was always 'there'.

When Hasek and Roy were 'hot' they were better. But when they weren't 'hot' (50% of the time) they were worse. It's probably why we don't remember Brodeur 'stealing' as many games.
 
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