What do you think of Yzerman these days?

[Winger98]

Well I mean... there were only 9 players in the entire league last year with 100 plus points.

There's only been a handful of Redwings in the last 25-30 years with 90 plus points in a season. Idk if it's right to say it's "impossible" for Raymond to get there but odds suggest it's a steep climb.

Not sure anyone that questions 100 points plus is saying Raymonds a bad player. Just idk if he's with names like Pastrnak/Panarin/Rantanen etc. some of the best non-centers in the league... idk Seems like a guy that'll get somewhere between 30-40 goals consistently and have a few breakthrough years and TO ME that's really good still.

I'm not sure I'd put Tkachuk in that category, though, either. It feels like the lack of team success has made some of our guys undervalued compared to some other guys.

Tkachuck has had two more than anyone on the Wings have had in how long?

Him and Barkov and much better players than anyone on the Wings so they really don’t work as a comparable

we weren't talking about the rest of the team, though. Part of what makes Barkov and Tkachuk (and a host of other players) look so good is that they have good teams around them, and that's what I think we're waiting on to see what Danielson, Kaspar, Ed, Cossa, etc. actually end up being. i really don't think Larkin and Raymond are crazy far off from Eichel/Stone or Barkov/Tkachuk.

 

[Snuggs]

I'm not sure I'd put Tkachuk in that category, though, either. It feels like the lack of team success has made some of our guys undervalued compared to some other guys.



we weren't talking about the rest of the team, though. Part of what makes Barkov and Tkachuk (and a host of other players) look so good is that they have good teams around them, and that's what I think we're waiting on to see what Danielson, Kaspar, Ed, Cossa, etc. actually end up being. i really don't think Larkin and Raymond are crazy far off from Eichel/Stone or Barkov/Tkachuk.

No, though I'd say he's a clear step up above Raymond, and I'd say Raymond is more in the class/caliber of scorer as Matthew's brother Brady Tkachuk. Idk if a ton of people around here would call Brady Tkachuk a bad player,

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

Scouting/draft - An absolute crap show. Some of this is not draft position. Yzerman was handed a group of 1st round flops. That has been cleaned up from Yzerman's first draft to today. His first round picks have been solid. His moves for additional picks has been solid. Really the only glaring reaches/mistakes may be Brady Cleveland (even though I am the Prez, and only member, of his fan club). Some may say you SHOULD hit with top 10 picks. The counter that is Zadina, Rasmussen, Veleno, Cholowski, Svechnikov. ALL top 20. Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, Kasper, Danielson, Cossa ASP, MBN. This is from the outhouse to the penthouse. Will he strike magic with late round gems, ala Tampa? That is still to be seen.

oh hell no...

 

[nbwingsfan]

Guy just had one of the best u22 seasons in the history of Swedish hockey and you sure as hell don't see it... okay

I can't wait for people to wake up and see what we have with this kid

That doesn’t mean as much as you think it does.

Only 9 players hit 100pts last season.

You have to be a top ~10 player to reach that level, and no I do not see Raymond becoming that.

I'm not sure I'd put Tkachuk in that category, though, either. It feels like the lack of team success has made some of our guys undervalued compared to some other guys.



we weren't talking about the rest of the team, though. Part of what makes Barkov and Tkachuk (and a host of other players) look so good is that they have good teams around them, and that's what I think we're waiting on to see what Danielson, Kaspar, Ed, Cossa, etc. actually end up being. i really don't think Larkin and Raymond are crazy far off from Eichel/Stone or Barkov/Tkachuk.

Of course the success will depend on the team around them.

It’s crazy to think that Raymond and Larkin are as good as Tkachuck and Barkov though.

There’s a pretty notable gap. Could Raymond close in on Tkachuck? Sure.

But Barkov is on another level from Larkin

 

[ricky0034]

Tkachuk first 3 seasons: 224GP, 71G, 103A, 174pts
Raymond first 3 seasons: 238GP, 71G, 103A, 174pts

Tkachuk first 3 seasons: 60th in the league in points
Raymond first 3 seasons: 90th in the league in points

Tkachuk first NHL season: D+1
Raymond first NHL season: D+2

 

[RabidBadger]

oh hell no...

My first thought as well. I feel you reign supreme in the fever-swamp of Brady Cleveland obsession.

 

[The Zermanator]

I think he's more right than wrong. No it's not impossible but go down the list right down to the 90's.

You're not gonna find many teams with centers WORST than Larkin, and Idk if Eichel is clearly WORST than Larkin like the other two players you mentioned.

Teams I had that were real standouts as Cup winners were the St. Louis Blues, and Anaheim Ducks in the 00's.

I don't think Eichel is clearly worse than Larkin, but he's not clearly better either.

And I'm not claiming the path wouldn't be smoother if we had a top 5 centre, my issue is that debate is a waste of time. Are we going to pay an absolutely massive price in a trade, or are we going to tank for an indeterminate amount of time until we luck out at the lottery? Those are the two options going forward if we pretend that we can't win without that player. The former is unrealistic since teams don't trade those centres, and the latter turns your team into the laughing stock of the league with no guarantee of success ala Edmonton Oilers circa 2009-2015.

We have what we have as a 1C, and we know that what we have is good enough to win a Cup provided the rest of the team measures up. That's the more realistic path to focus on.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

My first thought as well. I feel you reign supreme in the fever-swamp of Brady Cleveland obsession.

is @AlwaysSunnyInDetroit gonna have to choke a bitch?

 

[Oddbob]

is @AlwaysSunnyInDetroit gonna have to choke a bitch?

Isn't that what Cleveland is for! You have an enforcer you might as well use them.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

is @AlwaysSunnyInDetroit gonna have to choke a bitch?

"Thank you Dave, I like your show"

 

[Pavels Dog]

Do you think Raymond becomes a consistent 100+ player?

I’d love it, but sure as hell don’t see it

Moving goalposts. I would disagree with categorizing Tkachuk as a consistent 100+ player. If he plays another 10 seasons I'd not be surprised if he never reaches 100+ again.

But I could definitely see Raymond becoming a consistent 80+ point player, maybe reaching 90-110 in optimal circumstances just like Tkachuk.

 

[Snuggs]

First month of the schedule looks tough... Could be out of the race real early this year.

1-9? 2-8? Legit could start 0-5.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Moving goalposts. I would disagree with categorizing Tkachuk as a consistent 100+ player. If he plays another 10 seasons I'd not be surprised if he never reaches 100+ again.

But I could definitely see Raymond becoming a consistent 80+ point player, maybe reaching 90-110 in optimal circumstances just like Tkachuk.

We have very different views of Raymond then

 

[Realgud]

IMO, Raymond is quite easily the most talented player in the entire Wings organization (except Kane, I guess). If he keeps growing I see no reason why he couldn't be a 90-100 points two-way winger.

 

[Retire91]

I feel like too many people are focused on generational talent and underestimating the competitiveness of a "complete" team and Yzerman's track record and ability of putting a complete team and front office together that has chemistry and dedication to doing the things that cup winners do. There are no guarantees to a cup for any team but this dialog of this team will never have a chance if Larkin is the best just needs to be filed as emotional arguments with no bases in reality. Winning the cup take just as much "get it done" mental fortitude as it does talent. And I dare say even more so. Yzerman has a proven track record of recognizing when a raw talent doesn't have the mental game and I totally trust his Yzerplan. He has already proven, with this team, that he can find talent with bad lottery luck. I like productive and opposing objective commentary, but these criticisms feel trite and woe is me and even more frankly, whiny.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

Don't love some of the Mac Pacioretty rumors that are floating out there. Just another washed up player with state of Michigan ties that will block up the roster for younger guys.

 

[RabidBadger]

Don't love some of the Mac Pacioretty rumors that our floating out there. Just another washed up player with state of Michigan ties that will block up the roster for younger guys.

Anyone from Michigan invariably ends up on the Wings rumor mill *yawn*

But hey, I got a little something to cheer you up: Pittsburgh fans on Spector's rumor site were talking about how they should be looking at Zadina and Lindstrom. You know you can bury them as competition to make the playoffs if they're talking about picking up our scraps

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

First month of the schedule looks tough... Could be out of the race real early this year.

1-9? 2-8? Legit could start 0-5.

But hey, I got a little something to cheer you up: Pittsburgh fans on Spector's rumor site were talking about how they should be looking at Zadina and Lindstrom. You know you can bury them as competition to make the playoffs if they're talking about picking up our scraps

Snuggs, listen to my guy Rabid Badger here, Penguins suck and I hate them. We start the season 1-0

Penguins have to play the Rangers the night before coming to the Detroit to open our season by the way.

 

[Retire91]

if he was 4 or 5 years older he could have been a Holland 2017 style signing

 

[Henkka]

I'd rather have Pacioretty's leadership on the lockerroom than Snively.

 

[Pavels Dog]

We have very different views of Raymond then

The vast majority of players that hit 70+ points as U22 players end up reaching that type of level. Especially ones with the pedigree of Raymond. Basically he already showed in the 2nd half that he can be a PPG guy.

I guess one cold also point out the hypocrisy of Raymond needing to be a 100+ point guy consistently to be on the level of Stone/Eichel/Barkov/Tkachuk when literally Tkachuk is the only one that has ever hit those numbers.

Eichel has only been above 70+ points twice. Stone has never been. I'm sure you have a laundry list of excuses for those players though that you wouldn't in a million years apply to a Wings player.

 

[Snuggs]

So... is Raymond as good as Eichel/Stone to you? Might need to just pay that guy if you think that. Those guys are paid. I know you personally can't but 8 million seems like a bargain if he's better or as good as those two.

 

[Henkka]

So... is Raymond as good as Eichel/Stone to you? Might need to just pay that guy if you think that. Those guys are paid. I know you personally can't but 8 million seems like a bargain if he's better or as good as those two.

Stone wasn't paid until he did hit UFA years.

And Eichel was overpaid, after ELC, thanks to his draft status. And still is.

 

[Snuggs]

Stone wasn't paid until he did hit UFA years.

And Eichel was overpaid, after ELC, thanks to his draft status. And still is.

Maybe, he's already won a cup in his 1st year playing in the playoffs so, over-paid, is relative to what a team is trying to do. Hard to say Vegas wins that cup without Eichel. We'll see if it's his last Stanley cup. PPG player for many years in a row.

If Raymond is as a good as Eichel, 8 million is a bargain still. Idk why you'd not go long-term 8x8.

Can't seem to play a full 82. Big knock so far.(For Eichel).

 

[Pavels Dog]

So... is Raymond as good as Eichel/Stone to you? Might need to just pay that guy if you think that. Those guys are paid. I know you personally can't but 8 million seems like a bargain if he's better or as good as those two.

It's about how good Raymond could become. As is every contract these days given to 21-23 year olds.