Player Discussion What do we have in J.T. Miller? | Part 2

[Frankie Blueberries]

So are the Canucks not a playoff contender? Clearly if you thought that the team wasn't close to playoff contention you were wrong. So if you think the trade made more sense for a team closer to playoff contention then you naturally should be of the view that in hindsight that trade made a ton of sense?

As for your "incredibly fortunate" argument, your foresight or lack of foresight certainly impacts your evaluation of the trade at the time but just because you didn't foresee it doesn't mean that others couldn't. I'm not saying that you couldn't use the "well nobody saw it" argument to rationalize your thinking at the time, but at the same time what value does it bring? Nobody thought Eriksson would be this bad in his first 2 years here but here we are. You got to be good to be lucky and you got to be lucky to be good. There are always reasons why a team is successful and why a team is not.

There's a difference between being wrong at the time and being wrong with the use of hindsight. I don't think people questioning our odds at playoff success were unreasonable - just look at any poll pre-season, most people thought we'd miss the playoffs, and for good reasons.

If you don't think our season has been lucky (mainly injuries and how the rest of the Western Conference is performing), then I don't think we can really see eye-to-eye in this debate. This season is an anomaly for many reasons. A lot of the people that are chest thumping about the current season's success probably also believed we'd be a playoff team in previous years as well.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

There's a difference between being wrong at the time and being wrong with the use of hindsight. I don't think people questioning our odds at playoff success were unreasonable - just look at any poll pre-season, most people thought we'd miss the playoffs, and for good reasons.

If you don't think our season has been lucky (mainly injuries and how the rest of the Western Conference is performing), then I don't think we can really see eye-to-eye in this debate. This season is an anomaly for many reasons. A lot of the people that are chest thumping about the current season's success probably also believed we'd be a playoff team in previous years as well.

Oh,..is that the mantra now..?..This season is an anomaly.?...lol

I dont recall anybody saying that last years Canucks team were a playoff team..How does the addition of a 3rd and 4th liner turn a bottom feeder into a playoff team?..now you're just making stuff up.

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-standings-predictions-preseason-edition-2019/
NHL predictions for 2018-19: Final standings, playoff projections and Stanley Cup pick
NHL team-by-team over/under point projections for 2018-19 - TheHockeyNews

 

[Fatass]

This is a ridiculous take...First of all, if the Canucks were a lottery team this year, the best player available probably won't be making an impact for at least two years...(Horvat would be 27...and by that time he would probably be asking for a trade.).

Just sitting back, collecting 1st round picks, and sucking year after year is no guaranteed recipe for success...All that breeds is a 'losing environment' ..just ask the Sabres.

IMO you’re off base on what’s best to build a winning (elite) young core. Miller is 26, and you argue that Bo (at 27) will be done with us. To me, that makes no sense.
Drafting one more guy to go with Petey and Hughes just gives us so much better chance to win a Cup. Maybe Podkolzin is that elite level guy? If so, moving the coming first was a good move.

 

[DonnyNucker]

With Benning in charge? A few years is too generous.

Miller’s contract was 4 years remaining. 3 after this season. Pretty far from an old rental

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Oh,..is that the mantra now..?..This season is an anomaly.?...lol

I dont recall anybody saying that last years Canucks team were a playoff team..How does the addition of a 3rd and 4th liner turn a bottom feeder into a playoff team?..now you're just making stuff up.

I thought this season being an anomaly was obvious. Pretty much no one thought we'd be leading the Pacific division. Feel free to disprove the anomaly argument though, by proving that the following factors are wrong...

Edler and Tanev having healthy seasons so far (compared to previous recent seasons).
The Pacific/Western Conference being sub-par (San Jose, Vegas, Nashville, etc. struggling was not something people predicted).
Our team's roster being under the cap (we won't be able to return with the same roster next season based on the statuses of our UFAs/RFAs/bonuses that will kick in - this is our one shot with our current lineup).

I honestly don't know what you mean by the last sentence. We added Myers, Hughes, Miller, Ferland, Fantenberg, and Benn. Don't know what you mean by 3rd/4th liner additions. Arguing with you is tiresome because I know you will either disappear or just post "....your opinion..." or "okie dokie" or some dumb baby boomer meme. But I digress, we are going off topic into management discussions now.

 

[Diversification]

If you don't think our season has been lucky (mainly injuries and how the rest of the Western Conference is performing), then I don't think we can really see eye-to-eye in this debate. This season is an anomaly for many reasons. A lot of the people that are chest thumping about the current season's success probably also believed we'd be a playoff team in previous years as well.

You lost me here. A lot of things had to go right this season for the team to be in the position it is. But an anomaly implies that we’ll regress back to last years doldrums next year.

While some regression is to be expected, what it can’t undo is the difference success experienced by the players will have on future seasons. It’s now also a known quantity that Hughes is a legit 2/3 defender who can qb a PP1. It’s also a team with another legit top6 forward in Miller. It’s also a known quantity that EP can reach a new level of productivity even with increased defensive scrutiny.

That substantively changes the calculus for this team and its timeline for reaching contender status.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

You lost me here. A lot of things had to go right this season for the team to be in the position it is. But an anomaly implies that we’ll regress back to last years doldrums next year.

While some regression is to be expected, what it can’t undo is the difference success experienced by the players will have on future seasons. It’s now also a known quantity that Hughes is a legit 2/3 defender who can qb a PP1. It’s also a team with another legit top6 forward in Miller. It’s also a known quantity that EP can reach a new level of productivity even with increased defensive scrutiny.

That substantively changes the calculus for this team and its timeline for reaching contender status.

See my post right above yours for a bit more clarification.

I'm just going to post the definition of what 'anomaly' means (not because I don't think you're smart enough, but just to avoid any potential confusion):

something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected.

Show me where people expected us to be #1 in the Pacific division 51 games in. Show me where people expected Nashville, San Jose, and potentially Vegas to be out of the playoffs. Show me were people expected Tanev to play the entire season (so far) and Edler to only miss 10 games total. Like, this is definitely not what people expected. I don't really understand how or why people are disputing this.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I thought this season being an anomaly was obvious. Pretty much no one thought we'd be leading the Pacific division. Feel free to disprove the anomaly argument though, by proving that the following factors wrong...

Edler and Tanev having healthy seasons so far (compared to previous recent seasons).
The Pacific/Western Conference being sub-par (San Jose, Vegas, Nashville, etc. struggling was not something people predicted).
Our team's roster being under the cap (we won't be able to return with the same roster next season based on the statuses of our UFAs/RFAs/bonuses that will kick in - this is our one shot with our current lineup).

I honestly don't know what you mean by the last sentence. We added Myers, Hughes, Miller, Ferland, Fantenberg, and Benn. Don't know what you mean by 3rd/4th liner additions. Arguing with you is tiresome because I know you will either disappear or just post "....your opinion..." or "okie dokie."

Maybe Edler and Tanev are not injured because they are not being as heavily relied upon (Myers,Fantenburg and the ascent of Hughes)..Its called depth
Some people predicted the Central conference teams not being as good..ageing rosters etc...but the Canucks actually improving is something you have an awfully hard time coming to grips with.
Other teams will also be affected by the cap..its not just the Canucks

A lot of the people that are chest thumping about the current season's success probably also believed we'd be a playoff team in previous years as well.....Can you demonstrate this?

 

[F A N]

There's a difference between being wrong at the time and being wrong with the use of hindsight. I don't think people questioning our odds at playoff success were unreasonable - just look at any poll pre-season, most people thought we'd miss the playoffs, and for good reasons.

If you don't think our season has been lucky (mainly injuries and how the rest of the Western Conference is performing), then I don't think we can really see eye-to-eye in this debate. This season is an anomaly for many reasons. A lot of the people that are chest thumping about the current season's success probably also believed we'd be a playoff team in previous years as well.

I guess from my perspective I don't see anything wrong with being wrong and admitting it. Not like this is a life and death matter. But curious, can you give me an example of being wrong at the time and right with the use of hindsight when it comes to trades?

I think the Canucks have been lucky. After being one of the leaders in mans games lost over the past few years this team could use a bit of luck.

Regardless, I also think that the Canucks are the real deal. This team has been playing well as a team and it's not a coincidence that they have been winning. Not even counting the win streak, the way this team bounced back to string together victories after those two Florida games isn't just luck. Having great goaltending isn't just luck. Clearly the Canucks held a potential edge in net against our conference rivals. The Canucks having one of the best PP isn't luck given the talent that is on the 1st unit PP.

At some point, the #bittercanucks gets tiresome. The Canucks get off to a great start and it's not sustainable because of an easy schedule. The Canucks rely on great goaltending and PP to get points and the criticism is the Canucks' 5 on 5 play and OT points earned. The Canucks now have the best record in the division and the most ROW and it's just luck and an anomaly? That's quite a Grey viewpoint.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Maybe Edler and Tanev are not injured because they are not being as heavily relied upon (Myers,Fantenburg and the ascent of Hughes)..Its called depth
Some people predicted the Central conference teams not being as good..ageing rosters etc...but the Canucks actually improving is something you have an awfully hard time coming to grips with.
Other teams will also be affected by the cap..its not just the Canucks

A lot of the people that are chest thumping about the current season's success probably also believed we'd be a playoff team in previous years as well.....Can you demonstrate this?

Good job not rebutting my reasons. No one thought San Jose and Nashville would miss the playoffs.
Your comment on the cap has no barring on what I wrote. It's a lazy red herring that doesn't even make sense. Some teams will have different cap situations next season, yes, that includes having MORE cap space to improve their rosters, not less, like the Canucks.

I knew the Canucks were going to improve this season - it was clear as day. Quit lying to try to make me look bad, it's pathetic that you have to resort to this.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I guess from my perspective I don't see anything wrong with being wrong and admitting it. Not like this is a life and death matter. But curious, can you give me an example of being wrong at the time and right with the use of hindsight when it comes to trades?

I think the Canucks have been lucky. After being one of the leaders in mans games lost over the past few years this team could use a bit of luck.

Regardless, I also think that the Canucks are the real deal. This team has been playing well as a team and it's not a coincidence that they have been winning. Not even counting the win streak, the way this team bounced back to string together victories after those two Florida games isn't just luck. Having great goaltending isn't just luck. Clearly the Canucks held a potential edge in net against our conference rivals. The Canucks having one of the best PP isn't luck given the talent that is on the 1st unit PP.

At some point, the #bittercanucks gets tiresome. The Canucks get off to a great start and it's not sustainable because of an easy schedule. The Canucks rely on great goaltending and PP to get points and the criticism is the Canucks' 5 on 5 play and OT points earned. The Canucks now have the best record in the division and the most ROW and it's just luck and an anomaly? That's quite a Grey viewpoint.

That's a fair take. I do think you are conflating the concepts of 'anomaly' and 'luck', though (for instance, our cap structure is not based off luck - but it creates an anomaly this season in icing a more competitive roster than we will ice next season in terms of the players we need to let go).

There's nothing negative/bitter about saying this season is an anomaly, either. Kinda blows my mind how people interpret the word anomaly.

 

[F A N]

That's a fair take. I do think you are conflating the concepts of 'anomaly' and 'luck', though (for instance, our cap structure is not based off luck - but it creates an anomaly this season in icing a more competitive roster than we will ice next season in terms of the players we need to let go).

There's nothing negative/bitter about saying this season is an anomaly, either. Kinda blows my mind how people interpret the word anomaly.

I'm not conflating anything here. I was responding to the points you made. Question, did you ever argue that a team should take advantage of having star players on their ELCs?

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Good job not rebutting my reasons. No one thought San Jose and Nashville would miss the playoffs.
Your comment on the cap has no barring on what I wrote. It's a lazy red herring that doesn't even make sense. Some teams will have different cap situations next season, yes, that includes having MORE cap space to improve their rosters, not less, like the Canucks.

I knew the Canucks were going to improve this season - it was clear as day. Quit lying to try to make me look bad, it's pathetic that you have to resort to this.

Delete

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I'm not conflating anything here. I was responding to the points you made. Question, did you ever argue that a team should take advantage of having star players on their ELCs?

Well you're pointing to things that aren't based on luck to try to dismiss the idea that this year has indeed been lucky in certain areas (particularly a lack of injuries and a terrible conference).

As for your second point - I'm not sure if I have ever explicitly argued that, but I'd agree with it. Chicago in 2010 is a great example of the benefits of ELCs. That's not the same as signing a bunch of depth players to long-term deals that will still be ongoing when our ELC contracts end, though - if that's what you're implying with the Canucks.

Critics need to stop being described as bitter or "haters", it's an immature view that lacks all nuance and context with this organization. But it appears that we're just talking over each other now, so this debate looks like it has run its course.

 

[Cucumber]

What we have is a player who is underrated but plays a game almost prefect for a special talent like EP.

Good 1st liner
Great 2nd liner

His contact is very fair and is a good guy. Fair trade value and if that first rounder turns into another shrinaruk or whatever his name was then its a steal. If it turns into a middle 6forward then we will see.

 

[Blue and Green]

Critics need to stop being described as bitter or "haters", it's an immature view that lacks all nuance and context with this organization.

You have referred to people who defend some of Benning's moves as "Benning Bros" and "idiots." Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

You have referred to people who defend some of Benning's moves as "Benning Bros" and "idiots." Physician, heal thyself.

I don't refer to people as idiots - but I have said that certain comments are idiotic which is true. Benning Bros is fair though.

 

[NuxFan09]

It's pointless to debate if this season is an "anomaly" or not. We don't know how things will transpire after this season. If the Canucks continue to improve and become a contender than it will not have been an anomaly: it will have been the beginning of their ascension. If there are several more lean years in store, then yes, it will have been an anomaly. Either way, we don't know right now. What I say is people on both sides of the argument desperately trying to prove that THEY are going to be right. I don't have an issue with pom poms or critics. What I think both sides should do is roll with this and see where it goes. Being right on the internet is overrated, yet people put so much time and effort into it.

 

[mriswith]

How many of the people in here who are making fun of the Miller trade critics also thought he'd be a PPG 1st line winger this season?

 

[Nick1219]

That's a fair take. I do think you are conflating the concepts of 'anomaly' and 'luck', though (for instance, our cap structure is not based off luck - but it creates an anomaly this season in icing a more competitive roster than we will ice next season in terms of the players we need to let go).

There's nothing negative/bitter about saying this season is an anomaly, either. Kinda blows my mind how people interpret the word anomaly.

I’m sorry... exactly what core players will we be letting go that will make our team worse and be a greater loss than the expected improvements of our young core.

 

[mriswith]

I’m sorry... exactly what core players will we be letting go that will make our team worse and be a greater loss than the expected improvements of our young core.

The ~15M cap advantage that two superstars on ELC's are creating right now.

 

[Boose Brudreau]

What we have is a player who is underrated but plays a game almost prefect for a special talent like EP.

Good 1st liner
Great 2nd liner

His contact is very fair and is a good guy. Fair trade value and if that first rounder turns into another shrinaruk or whatever his name was then its a steal. If it turns into a middle 6forward then we will see.

Oh come on, he's a top 20 forward producer in the league, plays a gritty 200ft game, can play all three forward positions (great on the draw) and has driven offence on every line Green has put him on. He's a great first liner and his contract is a hell of a lot better than "fair". I would rather have JT Millers 4 prime years at a very team friendly cap hit than 7 years of a "middle 6 forward". He's a f***ing beast.

 

[M2Beezy]

JT Miller is #1 in the league in faceoff win pctg

Man I love this player

 

[DFAC]

buT wE tRaDeD a FirSt roUnD pIcK

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I don't refer to people as idiots - but I have said that certain comments are idiotic which is true. Benning Bros is fair though.

"Man, if Benning gets fired (fingers crossed), there will be so many benefits. Obviously the team will do better long-term with a GM that knows how to manage the cap and has competent pro scouting, but also all the ignorant and annoying posters will either leave or eat crow for a long time. Cannot wait."...50 Shades

This pretty much sums up your view on anybody that doesn't share your viewpoint...