What changes next year?

[A1LeafNation]

Eichel has a serious neck injury so no thanks

And?

Marner is like nipples on a man, useless.

 

[mydnyte]

Marner for Eichel or McDavid.

This shame is all on Matthews and Marner.

If Eichel demands a trade, then Buffalo may come looking in that direction, the Oilers will not.
the Oil will likely take a run at (our) Anderson and try to solidify the defence and add some middle support players, and then they will be a force to be reckoned with.

Buffalo is screwed if Eichel wants out. ...same with Columbus and Jones.
on Jones, I'd have to pry a decent 2nd asset (Jenner) if he's not resigned, or not even consider the risk.

 

[hamzarocks]

Matthews isn't Crosby, Lemieux or Gretzky. Get over yourself.

He's a good goal scorer in the regular season who can be replaced by using his cap space efficiently. I would trade Marner first but Matthews is gone in 3 years anyway.

The matthews fanboys are doing to much. Treating him like he's a superstar who puts people in their seats and treating Toronto like its Arizona lool

Leafs can ice Brian Boyle every game as our 1C and its going to be a sold put house. Matthews has no impact like any other player on filling seats in Toronto

He's not must watch, and even if he were it doesn't matter the leaf fans don't need a player to show up for games. Using his "drawing" ability as a defense to not moving him next year should we fall in the 1st round again is just a bad argument and one done b/c those posters are fans of matthews not the team

 

[HEAVY DUTY]

as i mentioned in the other thread, if we were to fire Dubas, i'd want Jeff Gorton as his replacement.

 

[Egghead1999]

I'm hesitant to fire Dubas because he put the team in a position to succeed this season despite the cap ramifications. If Tavares and Muzzin didn't get injured, I think we would have finished off the Habs.

That being said, I would give him another chance to retool the roster, which will hopefully include moving on from Marner and making better use of the cap space.

You are right on Dubas, and Ya, Marner and Keefe need to go. However, I am not sure Habs would not have finish Leafs with JT and Muzzin in the lineup. That is the reason Keefe needs to go.

 

[Mopar]

I was a huge Marner fan and felt he bled blue and white until the contract holdout. That was very telling and it was a turning point. He hasn't been the same since and nor has his play. He's put up lots of points but he'ss cost us many games with cute plays, lazy backchecking and other low IQ decisions. Time's up.

 

[Egghead1999]

as i mentioned in the other thread, if we were to fire Dubas, i'd want Jeff Gorton as his replacement.

Do you watch NYR game? Please no more undersize super stars team. If dubas is gone, maybe Dean Lombardi or Hextall.

 

[meefer]

The first thing you do is bring in an old priest and a young priest to exorcise the ghost of Harold Ballard, as he's clearly still hanging around wreaking havoc.

Like many of you, I think that there is a lot of blame to be distributed here. Dubas built a roster that pretty much every prognosticator saw as good enough to make a deep playoff run. And, on paper, it probably was -- but games obviously aren't won on paper. Some of Keefe's coaching decisions, like refusing to split up Matthews, Marner, and Hyman (Marner played some of his best hockey when Matthews was injured earlier this year, so it's not like they have a symbiotic relationship) and giving them the lion's share of the ice time when they were being effectively stymied, were baffling. And Sandin was demonstrably not ready for the pressure of the playoffs. Martin Marincin is a fan whipping-boy, but he's also a seven-year pro who would probably not have effed up so royally. He should have been the selection after Sandin's first screw-up. Withdrawing Dermott after the shutout made zero sense and likely killed his confidence too.

So, next year? I live in London. I remember Marner playing his guts out for us as a Knight, and I don't know why he can't do it now. Perhaps there are 11 million reasons why not. At this point, his value is low. Who would take him without the Leafs coming out the poorer for it? With respect to the other forwards, I hope that we can swing a deal with Seattle to keep Kerfoot. He played well. Galchenyuk was a worthwhile reclamation project. Spezza, as many have noted, was our second-best forward, which tells you all you need to know about the series, really. I hope he wants to come back but wouldn't blame him if he doesn't. Simmonds and Thornton were sentimental pickups that the game has passed by. Having Thornton out on the powerplay and anywhere on the ice in Games 6 and 7 was, frankly, inexcusable. I don't care how "inspirational" he is when you're trying to win a game. I'd like Hyman back too, if a team-friendly contract can be worked out. I wouldn't be surprised to learn he was playing hurt. I'm quite sure Foligno goes straight back to Columbus, which is fine, other than the overpay.

Rielly was fine. Brodie is our best defensive defenceman by a country mile and the player that I really want Dubas to hold onto. We need more guys like him who just quietly and effectively do their job. Ditto Bogosian. Muzzin is an effective leader, although is he made of glass? That's two series in a row that he hasn't managed to finish. Holl started really well; however, he seemed to become less and less reliable as the year went on. Dermott is still young, and while I think he's fine, he's replaceable. Sandin, clearly, needs more seasoning.

I love Campbell, and I love his story, but he's a 1B at best. He doesn't have the consistency or the swagger of a starter. We need a bona fide #1. It's not Freddie or Rittich either. I hope that Dubas doesn't see an aging vet (like Holtby) and get stars in his eyes.

Sorry for the novel. Long-time lurker, first-time poster. My poor nine-year-old son learned what it is to be a Leafs fan last night. Maybe he'll see a Cup during his lifetime?

Welcome and great first post.

I'm not sure we need a bona fide #1 as I think Campbell played well enough for us to win. Unfortunately, scoring goals helps achieve that goal and we weren't good enough in that department. Get a solid tandem partner (Buffalo's fella...forget his name, he's a free agent now) and that's a solid pair for duty.

I'd keep Dermott over Holl, play him on the right side and accept the consequences, I still think he'll pan out better than JH and TD is much younger, which adds to his value in my opinion. I too am worried about Muzzin's resiliency. Love the player, concerned about the injuries. Rielly...his best was very good and in the playoffs, his overall season was less compelling. With one year to go is he a trade option? Do you want to lose his 25+ minutes? What would he cost to re-sign? Personally, while I liked Bogo, I'd be leaning towards playing Rielly and Dermott, Muzz with Liljegren, and Brodie with Sandin. We've got two young Dmen, give them a chance with our most solid, defensively responsible players and lets find out what we've got. A steadying influence from two professionals like Muzz and JT gives them both a chance to learn from professionals and succeed.

100% behind your comments about Thornton and Simmonds, their time has passed. Hyman on a team friendly I can accept, a 5M+/yr 29 year old, no thank you. I still have time for Engvall, Galch a bit less, Mikky...ummmm, Foligno, I agree with your sentiment, but I'd be curious how he'd work as a 3rd liner. I want to see Robertson full time with Tavares. Nylander's a keeper, and for minimum Spezza was a treat, Brooks perhaps.

Leaving Matthews and Marner. Honestly, since the end of the game I've been wondering about moving them both. Matthews would gain a boatload, especially from Arizona, though you'd have to think other teams would at least have to strongly consider. Marner less, but still valuable, and if combined appropriately, could get Eichel out of Buffalo if he's healthy. If this is something the team considered, the cap would be much less a concern and the talents more equally spread throughout the line-up.

One last comment. While at the time I thought Matthews response of smiling after getting ragged behind the Habs net was funny and a 'fack-off' moment, I'm now leaning a bit more towards it being a worrying sign of immaturity.

 

[Clark4Ever]

The other driving factor regarding moving one of the big four is the flat cap for the next several years. When Dubas signed them, no one foresaw a global pandemic changing the economic landscape of the NHL.

We have no choice but to adjust with the times, and the most logical choice is trading Marner in my opinion.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

So first off, if this team came back with the same GM, Coach, and core with the only changes to the supporting cast I wouldn't care. The thing I most want to happen is Marner moved, but even if that doesn't happen I don't care. Let's look at this team from the roster to the coaches to management.

Goaltending I believe is solidified now with Campbell, just need to get him another guy to platoon with. There are lots of options in UFA for that like Ullmark for example. Campbell proved he was good in the regular season and was great in the playoffs, had better numbers than Price. Unfortunately for him the team in front of him was careless with the puck too often at the worst times. Regardless, he's fine as a starter and our #1 going forward.

Defence has a fantastic top 3, Brodie and Muzzin were fantastic all season and playoffs, and despite his struggles in the regular season Rielly really came to play this post-season (unlike certain other members of the core). Bogosian if he wants to should be re-signed as well as he's a great presence on the bottom pair and can actually still play the game as a vet unlike Thornton and Simmonds. Have to decide who to protect and who to expose in the expansion draft, but I do like how the rest of the D fills out and don't think any major move needs to be made. Holl and Dermott, take your pick on who to protect, Sandin and Liljegren are also coming along nicely and Sandin is probably on the roster full time next year.

Forwards is the biggest area of concern. First off, take Thornton and Simmonds and fire them into the sun. They were brought in for leadership and grit and they did shit f***ing all in the playoffs to demonstrate any of that or help spark the team. Foligno I know was injured, but unless he wants to re-sign on the cheap he can take a hike too, so can Nash (speaking of, maybe Nash is more useful if he could've played in the regular season, too bad our no show winger makes an exorbitant amount of money). Mikheyev, Engvall, and Galchenyuk all fall into the category of ambivalence for me, they all bring something to the table really well but they're also frustrating and flawed, don't care what happens to them. Spezza, bless him, if he wants to come back do it, but I wouldn't blame him one bit if he decided to take his services elsewhere. Kerfoot had a pretty decent season and an even better playoffs, but again the expansion draft complicates things, but I'd like to have him back. Hyman should be re-signed after the expansion draft so as to not complicate things, maybe he'll be cheaper than $5 million AAV every media person keeps going on about. I think Robertson makes the team next year too.

Still on forwards, but focusing on the core four of them, Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares. Let's start with most impressive to most disappointing. William Nylander was a bloody revelation these playoffs and made everyone of his critics shut the f*** up about him. He was engaged all series being physical, making good defensive plays, able to create offence when his two linemates went down to injury, and according to Spezza and the team stepped up as a leader too. There's no way you move this guy. Tavares, God what a terrible and unfortunate injury, the good news is that he was skating before the end of our playoff run, and I'd bet he'd have played against the Jets had we gotten there, but alas. He struggled in the first half of the regular season but really stepped it up leading up to the playoffs, I've no doubt he'd have been a monster in them too. Matthews, I don't know man, 1 goal in 7 games? 3 goals in his last 12 playoff games? For a Rocket winner that's extremely underwhelming. Too often he did not looked all that engaged this series and he had no answer for the special attention the Habs put on him and his line. Hyman may have been battling injury and his other linemate was even worse than he was, but he could've and should've done more.

Mitch Marner, I mean what do you even say. Hometown kid drafted highly by his local and favourite team, everybody and their mother just wanting to shower him in affection and accolades, he seems like a nice dude off the ice, treats fans well, and yet still he goes and holds this organization hostage to be paid like a superstar. And what has he done on the ice to prove he was worth the money? The greatest disappearing act since Houdini. Wow was he just a complete no-show. Hasn't scored a playoff goal in 18 games, couldn't make any plays to save his life against the Habs, shied away from physical play, made boneheaded decisions, the list goes on. For $11 million you expect way more from him, especially when he's playing with another $11 million forward. Yeah he PKs and with him it performed really well up until it didn't (and really that coincided with Muzzin going down to injury so who really stirs the straw of the PK drink). But he needs to be way more effective on the ice than just being a PK specialist and him and his line breaking even with the line they're matched up against, that's nowhere near good enough.

Also there's this:



Anyway, of the players, here's who I'd definitively keep from this roster:

Matthews
Nylander
Tavares
Hyman
Kerfoot
Spezza

Brodie
Muzzin
Rielly
Bogosian
Sandin

Campbell

I do think there's a solid nucleus here, but instead of trying to find grit and tenacity and character from bargain bin guys, the Leafs need to try to be like Colorado and find low risk skilled guys to fill out their roster. It doesn't matter if your third or fourth line winger has grit or leadership supposedly, those intangibles need to come from your top guys. Whether Dubas or Keefe are the right men to lead the job is a whole other story.

 

[tmlms13]

Amazon Prime Cameras

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Sheldon Keefe as a coach, has a really good regular season record, it's up there with the likes of Tampa Bay and Colorado, though the Leafs did only need to face the North Division this season, but given where they are right now maybe that wasn't the advantage we all thought it was. Despite his regular season success, his playoff record is shoddy. Now on one hand, I do wonder why he never did break up Matthews and Marner as a duo, maybe he didn't want to make a panic move and put too much trust in them to figure it out. Which wouldn't be too wrong a thought given that they're two 11 million dollar players and should have figured it out because, y'know, they're "stars" who ran roughshod over the North and were in the top end of scoring all season.

Aside from that blunder, either on him or M&M, I think his decision to use Sandin early and often really cost us ending this series early. If he wanted Sandin there to kick-start the powerplay, that is ridiculous and reflects extremely poorly on him and Malhotra that they're relying on a 21 year old who's hardly played to resuscitate an anemic powerplay. But yeah, shouldn't have "trial by fire" Sandin when Dermott was there and healthy and had been a solid bottom pairing all season. The PK was mediocre in the regular season but was stopping the Habs all series until Jake Muzzin went down to injury, so I'm not sure how much of the PK success you can put on the coaches when apparently it was one guy holding it together.

As for getting this group motivated, on one hand that's gotta be on the players themselves, come out flat one game fine, two games in a row and it's a serious concern, three games in a row and there's something rotten going on. Not sure how much motivating they'd need when they've got a chance to close out a series on home ice twice but I'm not in their heads.

So yeah, Keefe, I don't really care either way what his fate is. They were having good results in the regular season, but literally no one in this city or fanbase gives a shit about the regular season anymore. Sure he had a major injury (and then another) to deal with but even he didn't want to use it as an excuse. Malhotra should be gone for sure, don't have strong feelings about Hakstol. Replace him or don't, I don't think much changes any way unless something happens to the core.

And now Kyle Dubas, the architect of this team. Firstly, I do think there's a lot of good he's done here with this team. Campbell is a stud, the defence corps is the best it's been in over a decade, and we've got a solid prospect pool. Sadly, the results aren't there for him to really hang his hat on. Starting off his contract negotiations to the Big Three were not good, Nylander took too long but the money and cap hit are fine now, Matthews is slightly overpaid but in the long haul is probably worth it, Marner however was a gross overpay and has cost this team in many ways because they've had to spend so much time juggling around it.

Every trade from this TDL will end up being a dud due to our short run in the playoffs, but none hurt more than the awful Foligno deal, especially when Taylor Hall was right there and was had for a second, and don't tell me Hall "only wanted to play for Boston." He was eager to go anywhere.



He'd have really helped a team that had trouble scoring again in the playoffs, especially when one of our stars went down to injury but alas. If Foligno re-signs for cheap the trade is a bit more palatable, but even then, woof.

I do however think he can fix this, maybe I'm naive but also I'm pretty detached right now. Let's not forget that he did go out of his way to supplement this core with everything they should've needed. Veteran players that allegedly made the room better, good playoff goaltending, dramatically improved the defence, and they still choked, mostly on the backs of Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner.

He's got to fill out next years roster with better depth than Thornton and Simmonds provided, and the Marner situation will need to be handled delicately. Getting a player of equal salary or multiple players who make less but have a bigger impact across the board will be challenging.

There is something to be said about stability at the top of an organization, and really guys like Benning and Bergevin have survived forever, does Dubas deserve to be canned compared to them? Keefe I care less about, get Gallant, get Boudreau, I don't care who replaces him if he's replaced at all.

 

[Mess]

What changes next year that will have the biggest impact on the Leafs is they're going back to the Atlantic Div to play against TB and Boston & and fast charging Florida team again in their Div and the golden opportunity of this cushy All-CDN easy opposition days are over.

Leafs QofC goes way up again and that will not help Leafs results go up, because if we can't beat usual non playoff teams like CBJ and MON in normal full season of play then thinking we're going to be beating Tampa and Boston anytime soon without something significant happening.

 

[Clark4Ever]

So first off, if this team came back with the same GM, Coach, and core with the only changes to the supporting cast I wouldn't care. The thing I most want to happen is Marner moved, but even if that doesn't happen I don't care. Let's look at this team from the roster to the coaches to management.

Goaltending I believe is solidified now with Campbell, just need to get him another guy to platoon with. There are lots of options in UFA for that like Ullmark for example. Campbell proved he was good in the regular season and was great in the playoffs, had better numbers than Price. Unfortunately for him the team in front of him was careless with the puck too often at the worst times. Regardless, he's fine as a starter and our #1 going forward.

Defence has a fantastic top 3, Brodie and Muzzin were fantastic all season and playoffs, and despite his struggles in the regular season Rielly really came to play this post-season (unlike certain other members of the core). Bogosian if he wants to should be re-signed as well as he's a great presence on the bottom pair and can actually still play the game as a vet unlike Thornton and Simmonds. Have to decide who to protect and who to expose in the expansion draft, but I do like how the rest of the D fills out and don't think any major move needs to be made. Holl and Dermott, take your pick on who to protect, Sandin and Liljegren are also coming along nicely and Sandin is probably on the roster full time next year.

Forwards is the biggest area of concern. First off, take Thornton and Simmonds and fire them into the sun. They were brought in for leadership and grit and they did shit f***ing all in the playoffs to demonstrate any of that or help spark the team. Foligno I know was injured, but unless he wants to re-sign on the cheap he can take a hike too, so can Nash (speaking of, maybe Nash is more useful if he could've played in the regular season, too bad our no show winger makes an exorbitant amount of money). Mikheyev, Engvall, and Galchenyuk all fall into the category of ambivalence for me, they all bring something to the table really well but they're also frustrating and flawed, don't care what happens to them. Spezza, bless him, if he wants to come back do it, but I wouldn't blame him one bit if he decided to take his services elsewhere. Kerfoot had a pretty decent season and an even better playoffs, but again the expansion draft complicates things, but I'd like to have him back. Hyman should be re-signed after the expansion draft so as to not complicate things, maybe he'll be cheaper than $5 million AAV every media person keeps going on about. I think Robertson makes the team next year too.

Still on forwards, but focusing on the core four of them, Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares. Let's start with most impressive to most disappointing. William Nylander was a bloody revelation these playoffs and made everyone of his critics shut the f*** up about him. He was engaged all series being physical, making good defensive plays, able to create offence when his two linemates went down to injury, and according to Spezza and the team stepped up as a leader too. There's no way you move this guy. Tavares, God what a terrible and unfortunate injury, the good news is that he was skating before the end of our playoff run, and I'd bet he'd have played against the Jets had we gotten there, but alas. He struggled in the first half of the regular season but really stepped it up leading up to the playoffs, I've no doubt he'd have been a monster in them too. Matthews, I don't know man, 1 goal in 7 games? 3 goals in his last 12 playoff games? For a Rocket winner that's extremely underwhelming. Too often he did not looked all that engaged this series and he had no answer for the special attention the Habs put on him and his line. Hyman may have been battling injury and his other linemate was even worse than he was, but he could've and should've done more.

Mitch Marner, I mean what do you even say. Hometown kid drafted highly by his local and favourite team, everybody and their mother just wanting to shower him in affection and accolades, he seems like a nice dude off the ice, treats fans well, and yet still he goes and holds this organization hostage to be paid like a superstar. And what has he done on the ice to prove he was worth the money? The greatest disappearing act since Houdini. Wow was he just a complete no-show. Hasn't scored a playoff goal in 18 games, couldn't make any plays to save his life against the Habs, shied away from physical play, made boneheaded decisions, the list goes on. For $11 million you expect way more from him, especially when he's playing with another $11 million forward. Yeah he PKs and with him it performed really well up until it didn't (and really that coincided with Muzzin going down to injury so who really stirs the straw of the PK drink). But he needs to be way more effective on the ice than just being a PK specialist and him and his line breaking even with the line they're matched up against, that's nowhere near good enough.

Also there's this:



Anyway, of the players, here's who I'd definitively keep from this roster:

Matthews
Nylander
Tavares
Hyman
Kerfoot
Spezza

Brodie
Muzzin
Rielly
Bogosian
Sandin

Campbell

I do think there's a solid nucleus here, but instead of trying to find grit and tenacity and character from bargain bin guys, the Leafs need to try to be like Colorado and find low risk skilled guys to fill out their roster. It doesn't matter if your third or fourth line winger has grit or leadership supposedly, those intangibles need to come from your top guys. Whether Dubas or Keefe are the right men to lead the job is a whole other story.

Regarding the reports of Marner acting like a prima donna, I am not the least bit surprised.

Yet another reason to move on from him. It's bad for the locker room.

 

[leafsgirl12]

And?

Marner is like nipples on a man, useless.

Eichel will likely need surgery and Buffalo won't let him get the surgery he wants

 

[Egghead1999]

The other driving factor regarding moving one of the big four is the flat cap for the next several years. When Dubas signed them, no one foresaw a global pandemic changing the economic landscape of the NHL.

We have no choice but to adjust with the times, and the most logical choice is trading Marner in my opinion.

Given Marner is only 25M in real money for 4 years, it is a good value for non-caped teams. The only issue is that which team has reasonable assets to get Marner?

 

[A1LeafNation]

Eichel will likely need surgery and Buffalo won't let him get the surgery he wants

And he will still probably do better than Marner in the playoffs.

 

[leafsgirl12]

Regarding the reports of Marner acting like a prima donna, I am not the least bit surprised.

Yet another reason to move on from him. It's bad for the locker room.

I'm fine with moving Marner but people wanting Eichel in return don't realize neck injuries can be a serious long term issue if not properly dealt with.

 

[leafsgirl12]

And he will still probably do better than Marner in the playoffs.

Not if he is in constant pain

 

[FabledKnight]

as i mentioned in the other thread, if we were to fire Dubas, i'd want Jeff Gorton as his replacement.

Would need to happen quick. That's on Shanny and so far Shanny has proven to take too long to make a decision like Babcock

 

[Egghead1999]

Regarding the reports of Marner acting like a prima donna, I am not the least bit surprised.

Yet another reason to move on from him. It's bad for the locker room.

I will not read too much into the "prime donna" stuff. On the other hand, I will see this is a sign that Leafs is planning to move him after July 1st. Don't be surprised it will be a one to one trade.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Nylanders contract is a steal. Saying that marner is worth 40% more than him and 20 percent more than Rantanen is a f***ing travesty

Literally the only contract he got right. The holdout should be seen as a success by Dubas. Should have pulled the same shtick with Marner tbh.

 

[Gallagbi]

they can't start from scratch until JT contracts runs out
will make it tough for any new gm to come in

Most teams starting from scratch don't axe everyone immediately and completely rebuild. It is usually a process with some lingering players

 

[4thline]

IMO Dubas is sitting on 2 strikes. This series and the Jackets. The to me is whether refusal to commit to a big change this summer is strike 3, or if he can buy himself a year with a core trade and/or coaching change.

Either way this organization is in good shape moving forward whether it's Dubas at the helm or someone else. But I'm kind of scared of a reactionary move followed by Burke/Nonis hole digging.

 

[4thline]

they can't start from scratch until JT contracts runs out
will make it tough for any new gm to come in

Two years left until decision point on Matthews. Dubas likely has one of them due to this loss being more about core performance than roster construction. If results are no better next year he's gone.

New GM has one year with Matthews to decide direction of team. At that point JT will have two years, Matthews/Nylander/Muzzin/Brodie 1. Worst case is a high octane rebuild.