What are examples of historical revisionism that you hate the most?

[End on a Hinote]

That people would have respected Daniel Sedin more if he punched Marchand back when he was repeatedly punching him in the face in 2011.

Bullshit.

 

[DitchMarner]

I'd be lying if I said I paid close attention to Crosby's defensive play when he was young (it's not exactly what he was known for), but he certainly didn't have a reputation for being a notable two-way player from, say, 2005-2010. He was an offensive dynamo, as were Ovechkin and Malkin. People did used to make the generic franchise C > more valuable than franchise W argument when comparing him to Ovechkin, but I don't really remember people saying he was actually a good two-way C at that time. He was certainly never considered to be in the class of guys like Datsyuk, Mike Richards, Kesler, Kopitar etc when it came to defensive play. He was probably better at actual defensive play than Ovechkin at the time (which isn't saying much), but Ovechkin was actually a very strong possession player (which people may have forgotten as he's significantly changed his game since he was young) and a physical force during his peak years, to the point that whatever advantage Crosby may have had defensively may have been negated when it comes to aspects of hockey outside of offense. If Crosby was so much better defensively in those years, why did he finish behind him in Hart voting in 2010 when they both had 109 points and Crosby had one more goal?

McDavid has been somewhat inconsistent defensively in his career (solid to good at times and a liability at other times). I remember in 2019 some were arguing Crosby had a better season based on better all-around play, but early in his career his defensive play wasn't close to as good as it was in 2019 (it probably hasn't been in any other season, either). I think some may have retroactively applied the narrative from that one season to both of their early careers as a whole even though both were basically just considered franchise scoring centres in their early days and neither was heralded as any sort of a two-way force (granted, Crosby was better at playing a grinding style, but that's different from defense).

Crosby's defensive peak (2019) was higher than those of players like Ovechkin, Jagr and McDavid, but I think it's erroneous to always assume that he has some sort of a meaningful defensive advantage (which seems to have become a popular trend) when comparing him to one of those players (it may or may not be the case depending on which years/career stages are being compared).

 

[Reaser]

You mention "dump and chase" repeatedly.

If your actual point is about the two-line pass, the conclusion is the same. No one is saying it caused the game to be exclusively dump and chase. But it did slow the game down and decrease scoring.

I gave it as an example of what others have said, and used that example in exactly two posts. If that's "repeatedly" then okay?

Yes, the point was the two-line pass, as was very clearly stated in the original post.

Which, you proved my point with your "slow game down and decrease scoring" response. From when? It existed for over 60 years before the lockout. It wasn't a new thing.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Not sure about the insult stuff, there were no insults?

Re-read what he was referring to on that specific part.

 

[DitchMarner]

Islanders fans hated Tavares because he went to Toronto and only because of that

What other reasons do they have for not liking him?

 

[gsharpe]

This one could be in my head/maybe nobody actually has this misconception anymore, but I've always gotten the impression that Pavel Bure had the stereotype of a lazy primadonna Russian who never played defense and just hung around center to cherry-pick, and that was never remotely true. That center-ice-pass acceleration play was his bread and butter, but he was pretty responsible/hard-working defensively, and was always a solid forechecker and backchecker, at least in his Vancouver days.

I'd argue he was significantly better defensively than Ovechkin at any point in his career, including in his tenacious heat-seeking-missile days, which admittedly isn't really saying much.

Us Canuck fans know this very well. Too bad he left . Damn you Keenan!

 

[Reaser]

Re-read what he was referring to on that specific part.

The second quote wasn't there when I responded.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

The second quote wasn't there when I responded.

Then re-read it for the first time; I don't know what to tell you.

 

[SheldonJPlankton]

Nobody ever thought Sundin was generational. Elite, however, he absolutely was at points. A few years in the top ten for goals and points, a couple post-season All Star selections in an era with very stiff competition at his position, and his International resume is unimpeachable.

Sundin was called out by Forsburg for cheating in the 2006 Olympics.

Not exactly unimpeachable.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

I referred to their primes discussion, where one of the usual points is that young Crosby brought substantially better two-way play than the others. I find it revisionist

You don’t know what revisionism is in that case. Crosby even back in his prime was widely considered defensively responsible. It’s not something that was attached after. Crosby was from the onset of his career regarded as a solid, if not good defensive player.

This isn’t new.

 

[Shareefruck]

I'd be lying if I said I paid close attention to Crosby's defensive play when he was young (it's not exactly what he was known for), but he certainly didn't have a reputation for being a notable two-way player from, say, 2005-2010. He was an offensive dynamo, as were Ovechkin and Malkin. People did used to make the generic franchise C > more valuable than franchise W argument when comparing him to Ovechkin, but I don't really remember people saying he was actually a good two-way C at that time. He was certainly never considered to be in the class of guys like Datsyuk, Mike Richards, Kesler, Kopitar etc when it came to defensive play. He was probably better at actual defensive play than Ovechkin at the time (which isn't saying much), but Ovechkin was actually a very strong possession player (which people may have forgotten as he's significantly changed his game since he was young) and a physical force during his peak years, to the point that whatever advantage Crosby may have had defensively may have been negated when it comes to aspects of hockey outside of offense. If Crosby was so much better defensively in those years, why did he finish behind him in Hart voting in 2010 when they both had 109 points and Crosby had one more goal?

McDavid has been somewhat inconsistent defensively in his career (solid to good at times and a liability at other times). I remember in 2019 some were arguing Crosby had a better season based on better all-around play, but early in his career his defensive play wasn't close to as good as it was in 2019 (it probably hasn't been in any other season, either). I think some may have retroactively applied the narrative from that one season to both of their early careers as a whole even though both were basically just considered franchise scoring centres in their early days and neither was heralded as any sort of a two-way force (granted, Crosby was better at playing a grinding style, but that's different from defense).

Crosby's defensive peak (2019) was higher than those of players like Ovechkin, Jagr and McDavid, but I think it's erroneous to always assume that he has some sort of a meaningful defensive advantage (which seems to have become a popular trend) when comparing him to one of those players (it may or may not be the case depending on which years/career stages are being compared).

This implies that Hart Trophy voting is some accurate standard of meritocracy beyond just looking at counting stats and word of mouth hearsay around the league. I would argue that that would have actually been a reasonable argument a the time (although people just as easily argued that the goals > assists argument supersedes/negates it, and many did).

It's true that Crosby was not remotely in the class of guys like Datsyuk, Mike Richards, Kesler, and Kopitar (hell, even in recent years, at his peak defensive performance, he isn't), but he was always non-trivially stronger defensively than Ovechkin, IMO (arguably because Ovechkin was on the weaker side, defensively, not because Crosby had a reputation for being exceptionally strong or something), and it always came up in back and forth discussions.

It certainly wasn't a super notable quality of Crosby's, though, nor was it usually a primary talking point. I'd say that his defense at the time was not nearly as good as the defense of high end sub-Selke-level third liners (which he might be closer to now), but still better than most offensive star players. So very solid but not great.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

When people say “even Bobby Orr was traded “.
Never happened. He left as a free agent under unscrupulous circumstances that his crooked agent, Alan Eagleson, never informed him of.

I've never heard anyone say that before. I've heard people say it about Gretzky, but never Orr

 

[SensontheRush]

Sure seems like revisionism to say that Crosby was bad defensively. If Toews was considered a 2-way beast, so too was Crosby.

 

[Chips]

Grinding doesn’t equal good defense. In his early-mid 20s he didn’t really show strong defensive awareness and positioning while his backchecking efforts were suspect at times.

Grinding absolutely does count as defense, assuming the player is actually good at it and not just chasing hits out of position. There’s different ways you can contribute


Top tier grinders can keep the puck in the other teams zone and keep their defenders (or even trap their top players) chasing


Garnet Hathaway is one of the best depth players in the league the last few years for this skill more than his offense. Certainly in Washington he was trapping other teams stars, or core depth, or whoever he was out against in their d zone


The further the puck is from your net the better. That said there’s great transition players who don’t excel at grinding or otherwise maintain O zone pressure and don’t bring the defensive benefit as much.

 

[Shareefruck]

Grinding absolutely does count as defense, assuming the player is actually good at it and not just chasing hits out of position. There’s different ways you can contribute


Top tier grinders can keep the puck in the other teams zone and keep their defenders (or even trap their top players) chasing


Garnet Hathaway is one of the best depth players in the league the last few years for this skill more than his offense. Certainly in Washington he was trapping other teams stars, or core depth, or whoever he was out against in their d zone


The further the puck is from your net the better. That said there’s great transition players who don’t excel at grinding or otherwise maintain O zone pressure and don’t bring the defensive benefit as much.

It can but doesn't have to, is his point, I think. Crosby tongue-in-cheek being labelled as "a grinder" doesn't do anything to suggest that he's good defensively. Plenty of players that are considered grinders aren't good defensively.

 

[DitchMarner]

I did a Google search trying to find articles about Crosby's defensive play early in his career.

Couldn't really find anything worthwhile, but this one piece of writing is pretty funny:

Sidney Crosby vs. Jonathan Toews: Which Player Is More Valuable To His Team?

Sidney Crosby of the Pittsburgh Penguins and Jonathan Toews of the Chicago Blackhawks are two of the most dynamic young forwards in the NHL. At 23 and 22 years of age, respectively, they have each accomplished a lot in their careers...

bleacherreport.com

 

[Chips]

It can but doesn't have to, is his point, I think. Crosby tongue-in-cheek being labelled as "a grinder" doesn't do anything to suggest that he's good defensively. Plenty of players that are considered grinders aren't good defensively.

Those players hit and are called grinders


Crosby with his skill and edge work could do this


So much of his best work was along the boards, even with multiple players on him or shoving him or whatever

 

[Osakahaus]

What other reasons do they have for not liking him?

No playoff success

 

[nowhereman]

Sure seems like revisionism to say that Crosby was bad defensively.

Pretty much this. The notion that Crosby was ever a poor defensive player is the real revisionism. And it's usually an argument most often proposed by fans of the same handful of rival teams.

 

[Three On Zero]

People who act like Crosby want good defensively in his younger years

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

Probably people who put someone over Gretzky. It's funny though, and I enjoy it every time. There is virtually no support for it. Career stats? Nope. Single seasons stats? Nope. Your guy made so and so a 50 goal scorer? That's nice. Gretzky turned Bernie Nicholls into a 70 goal scorer.

Someone? Besides Mario?

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

I actually watched him play and you're wrong.

brb, changing my username to this.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Not that it's necessarily a trump card because it only matters if you actually understand what you're watching, but for standard internet argument disclaimer purposes I've seen almost every single Crosby game in his career. The last time I missed one was in April 2007.

Very young Crosby was obviously smart and hard working, but he wasn't very refined defensively. Someone said upthread that he lacked defensive awareness and was bad positionally...that's completely wrong. He's the smartest guy on the ice. He just wasn't very good at putting it to use defensively, he also wasn't really encouraged to (look at his coach, the guy doesn't even get stuff right while looking at replays). So, yeah, teenager Crosby wasn't doing much.

Michel Therien getting there changed things and the team learned how to play defense. In the regular season, he was just fine at it. He did what he had to do, but it's not like he deserved any Selke votes or anything categorically similar. But, in the playoffs - and this became the trend for his entire career - he played a hard 200 foot game. He's Selke level good in the playoffs over the course of his whole career. He's not Selke level good in the regular season.

I wrote this in 2018 in a thread about (apparently) Gretzky and Crosby's defensive ability.

You are correct, in that a lot of times Kurri would handle F1 responsibilities...there are times in Crosby's career where he was granted that benefit, namely when playing with Pascal Dupuis...mature Dupuis handled F1 duties towards the end of the Bylsma era and allow Crosby to stay on the pointman...

It speaks more to Dupuis' evolution as a player...which was pretty remarkable in terms of the details, it was cool to watch. Crosby, now paired almost exclusively with weaker and incomplete and inexperienced players (like Bryan Rust and Jake Guentzel) has upped his defensive game significantly even during the regular season (he's always been strong two-ways in the playoffs because he's just a monster) to compensate for the lack of defensive conscience he deals with now since Dupuis and Kunitz are gone...

Crosby is doing more work defensively than he did because someone has to on his line. Being paired with defense-less players of late like Guentzel, Sheary, etc. but he still shouldn't be getting Selke votes. Someone said something to the effect of "he wasn't as bad as people are making it out to be back in the day, and he's not as good as is being purported now" and yeah, that's about the size of it.

So, I guess over time it's like...
Young player that was generally in good spots but couldn't do much with it -> team played defense, he joined in -> the Dupuis takes on more F1 backcheck duties allowing him to "Gretzky" things up high time period -> good/very good defensive play because of playing with young, incomplete wingers

And then that's covered by legitimate Selke caliber defense for the majority of his playoff career.

 

[Mike C]

that goaltenders in the 80s were all terrible

Billy Smith says hi

 

[Mike C]

What other reasons do they have for not liking him?

That stupid picture of him in his pajamas and his Toronto bed sheets