Confirmed with Link: Wes Clark leaves the Leafs for promotion with the Penguins
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Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
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That argument my friend assumes all picks are equal and that drafting Leafs Auston Matthews with the 1st overall = Leafs drafting Nathan Mayes in 2024 with the #225th pick (last overall) = 2 selections made. From a scouts POV and prospect level 2 very different things. 1st round and a 7th rounder are equal as PICKS but certainly not equal in VALUE.
You would have to take the value of of the draft selection spot ie spot #50 (2nd) and # 100 (4th) = 150 / 2 average draft class position = 75.. But if another team had 2 X 1st round picks in top 32 say picks 6 and 22 overall their average draft selection would be 28 / 2 = 14. Very different return on value and very different level of prospects a Scout is putting into a teams prospect pool.
Averaging doesn't work either ..
ex .. Team #1 = 1 X 2nd & 3 X 6th rounders + 3 X 7th rounders = 7 picks total & Team #2: 3 X 1sts & 2 X 2nds + 4th + 5th = 7 picks
Both teams average 7 picks but in 1 example a team making 5 picks in perhaps top 100 BEST players available is much much different then a team making 1 in top 150 and then 6 picks later also equal 7.
Also each draft class is individual because some are stronger graduating classes and some are weaker ones and you can't combine to average picks across classes as equal. A scout has to approach his work from 1 draft year to the next in a calendar year so averaging workload over many years also doesn't work.
ex.
View attachment 894086
vs.
View attachment 894087
You're implying via Math and averaging because the Leafs made 12 picks in 2020 (including 3 X 6th round & 3 X 7th all > 150 best players available that over that course of those last 4 years Leafs have made on average combined with the 11 draft picks (over 3 years combined 2021-2023 ) = 23 picks / 4 years = 5 - 6 picks a year. While the math is correct that is not telling an accurate story of scouts work load per year nor anywhere close to the level of talent a team is adding to its prospect pool.
Even though each team is given 7 picks per draft year by the NHL to start one in each round, that because Dubas made 12 picks in 2020 that excuses all the damage he did to classes 2021-2023 because on average he is fine. He was fired in 2023 and he had already traded 2023 - 2026 (4 years of future 2nds alone) he emptied rounds 1-4 in 2025. Not sure why you want to defend these actions.
Kyle Dubas went full Alex Anthopolous style mortgaging of the future for that 2023 run to the second round.
To give a sense of how long term the impact to that run was, the current Jake McCabe contract will have run its course, giving the Leafs 3 playoff runs and 2 full seasons of service time before the Blackhawks even use that first rounder.
People will say, that’s the price it takes to contend. Sure it is. But with the foundation so utterly incapable of delivering it just looks like a total failure of assessing the ability of the core, misplaced faith and a huge waste of assets for nothing.
Just trade McCabe and get a 1st back, retain if you have to... problem solved.
Trade Knies, get a 1st there, you paid less, obviously, we need these picks.
Treliving thinks they can compete by the way... they didn't sign Tanev to compete in 4 years, they signed him to compete over the next 2 years.
Guess the GM sucks by your assessment.
- Oct 18, 2010
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I think he wants us to pretend that the Leafs doing zero damage in 20 years except to their own fan base is something to be happy about.
- Oct 18, 2010
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MLSE doesn't like to pay people to not work for them. It's another on the long lists of scars that Dubas left the fan base. Everything changed after he fired Babcock for his best friend. It's the reason why Shamascam is still here, he's gone as soon as his contract runs out. It's a miracle Keefe was fired especially when you have "super fans" that love that the team hasn't done anything in 20 years.
The Rangers have 2 players on the team from back then. Vesey too I guess. Not much of a rebuild, they play in the same building after all.
No Bruins fan is happy with their playoff performances. Their team doesn't exist as a vehicle for nerds to try and win arguments online. They actually want their team to win in real life.
TheMadHatTrick
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2008
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Possibly my favorite burner account exposed story:
Internet connects Twitter dots to Bryan Colangelo’s wife
Internet sleuths believe they are one step closer to exposing the identity behind several Twitter burner accounts tied to 76ers president and general manager Bryan Colangelo, alleging his wife may …
nypost.com
Hours after the organization announced they would launch an internal investigation into allegations brought to light in The Ringer’s report, published Tuesday, a 76ers fan account, “Did the Sixers win?,” connected the dots to Colangelo’s wife, Barbara Bottini, noting the last two digits of her phone number were linked to three of the burners in question. Additional Twitter detectives followed suit, piling on the evidence.
“When you type Bryan Colangelo’s wife’s # into the Twitter reset form,” a Philadelphia-based user posted.
“For more evidence of her number ending in 91, see the following screenshot from @2003mubb who noted the recover number on Barbara’s email,” tweeted another Philadelphia-area sports blogger
hotpaws
Registered User
- Nov 21, 2009
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yup , that was a good one , it cost the idiot his careerPossibly my favorite burner account exposed story:
Internet connects Twitter dots to Bryan Colangelo’s wife
Internet sleuths believe they are one step closer to exposing the identity behind several Twitter burner accounts tied to 76ers president and general manager Bryan Colangelo, alleging his wife may …
Hours after the organization announced they would launch an internal investigation into allegations brought to light in The Ringer’s report, published Tuesday, a 76ers fan account, “Did the Sixers win?,” connected the dots to Colangelo’s wife, Barbara Bottini, noting the last two digits of her phone number were linked to three of the burners in question. Additional Twitter detectives followed suit, piling on the evidence.
“When you type Bryan Colangelo’s wife’s # into the Twitter reset form,” a Philadelphia-based user posted.
“For more evidence of her number ending in 91, see the following screenshot from @2003mubb who noted the recover number on Barbara’s email,” tweeted another Philadelphia-area sports blogger
leafers
Registered User
- Oct 2, 2006
- 1,276
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I assume he left because of a promotion and not because he didn’t want to be here. But how come Shanahan didn’t match their offer?
uncleben
Global Moderator
That argument my friend assumes all picks are equal and that drafting Leafs Auston Matthews with the 1st overall = Leafs drafting Nathan Mayes in 2024 with the #225th pick (last overall) = 2 selections made. From a scouts POV and prospect level 2 very different things. 1st round and a 7th rounder are equal as PICKS but certainly not equal in VALUE.
You would have to take the value of of the draft selection spot ie spot #50 (2nd) and # 100 (4th) = 150 / 2 average draft class position = 75.. But if another team had 2 X 1st round picks in top 32 say picks 6 and 22 overall their average draft selection would be 28 / 2 = 14. Very different return on value and very different level of prospects a Scout is putting into a teams prospect pool.
Averaging doesn't work either ..
ex .. Team #1 = 1 X 2nd & 3 X 6th rounders + 3 X 7th rounders = 7 picks total & Team #2: 3 X 1sts & 2 X 2nds + 4th + 5th = 7 picks
Both teams average 7 picks but in 1 example a team making 5 picks in perhaps top 100 BEST players available is much much different then a team making 1 in top 150 and then 6 picks later also equal 7.
Also each draft class is individual because some are stronger graduating classes and some are weaker ones and you can't combine to average picks across classes as equal. A scout has to approach his work from 1 draft year to the next in a calendar year so averaging workload over many years also doesn't work.
ex.
View attachment 894086
vs.
View attachment 894087
You're implying via Math and averaging because the Leafs made 12 picks in 2020 (including 3 X 6th round & 3 X 7th all > 150 best players available that over that course of those last 4 years Leafs have made on average combined with the 11 draft picks (over 3 years combined 2021-2023 ) = 23 picks / 4 years = 5 - 6 picks a year. While the math is correct that is not telling an accurate story of scouts work load per year nor anywhere close to the level of talent a team is adding to its prospect pool.
Even though each team is given 7 picks per draft year by the NHL to start one in each round, that because Dubas made 12 picks in 2020 that excuses all the damage he did to classes 2021-2023 because on average he is fine. He was fired in 2023 and he had already traded 2023 - 2026 (4 years of future 2nds alone) he emptied rounds 1-4 in 2025. Not sure why you want to defend these actions.
That's not the math I was doing at all
You made the claim that Clark left because Dubas never had any picks (and that's why he's leaving to go work for Dubas?)
I was just showing over Dubas' time that he did in fact have about as many picks as most other competitive teams in the league
If you're building a team, of course there's difference between a 1st and 7th! It would be silly to suggest otherwise. But if you are concerned about scouts sitting in cold rinks, I think most scouts who are passionate about their job would love having extra sixes and sevens to ply their trade and go to bat for their diamonds in the rough. Anybody can take Auston Matthews or Macklin Celebrini with 1OA and pat themselves on the back
My biggest point is why is anyone shocked we traded away picks to try and be competitive in our window?
Be frustrated at the results, sure!
But sitting on our hands and our picks shouldn't be the goal.
Not having our 2nd round picks is typically a good sign in terms of competitiveness - the first step to actually passing the first round.
I'd rather be in 2024 with no second rounds until 2027 but a chance to win a Cup, then in 2015 where Mike Sanotrelli and Cody Franson are our best players on the block and we can leverage them to draft Dermott and Bracco with our excessive number of picks.
Of course, it's not a black and white dichotomy; it's too easy to boil this down to "sides". It's not about excuses or defending anyone, but literally everyone trades their picks, especially playoff teams - it's not a Dubas thing. I'm sure Florida is not lamenting not having a pick within the top 150 next year
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Mess
Global Moderator
Re: McCabe not only do the Hawks have Leafs 1st in 2025 they also have Leafs 2nd in 2026 for that same trade.
Dubas needed to empty entire draft classed years into the future to fuel his failure only to lose in round #1 each year.
2025 entry draft .. Before Treliving trade back 2 X in the Ben Danford selection to get Florida's 2nd in 2025.
Leafs 1st rounder headed to Chicago to pay off McCabe trade from 2 years ago.
Leafs 2nd rounder headed to Arizona/Utah to dump his poor UFA signing of Nick Ritchie.. ( Is this guy even still playing hockey?)
Leafs 3rd rounder headed to Seattle to pay off the Sam Lafferty trade.
Leafs 4th rounder traded to Minny to retain cap on Noel Acciari traded to TO in the ROR deal.
Wes Clark is sitting there saying "F this shit I'm out of here" I'm not sitting around making 5-7th round selections. He probably was in on all this anyways telling Dubas to trade away because Leafs success = job security for the Soo Greyhound 3 Musketeers, because he knew he had job security as long as Dubas was his boss because of Soo Greyhound blood brothers to the end.
So no surprise he is re-joining his BFF in Pitts and advising Dubas because he is now immune to accountability for job performance review, because he has tenure as long as Dubas keeps his job. Now Dubas can tell Wes to go back to drafting small soft smurfs to build the Pens dynasty back up.
Punch Drunk Loov
Thought Viktor Loov was going to be a guy
- Dec 6, 2011
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I changed my mind, Wes is a goofball.
He has barely tweeted in his career but when he leaves the Leafs he certainly didn't have a classy send off like Keefe thanking the City and the fans. Instead he basically said, "I love Dubas, therefore, I'm out".
He has barely tweeted in his career but when he leaves the Leafs he certainly didn't have a classy send off like Keefe thanking the City and the fans. Instead he basically said, "I love Dubas, therefore, I'm out".
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
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The McCabe deal isn’t bad, and people will also defend the price paid by citing the cap retention. But at the same deadline Edmonton paid a similar price in draft capital and unloaded Tyson Barrie for Mattias Ekholm who turned into the Oilers defensive cornerstone. Meanwhile Toronto couldn’t execute a deal with that much cap space because we had to keep Holl and Kerfoot for the big ‘23 run.
I’d also tally up the draft capital cost in acquiring Lyubushkin the first time in ‘22 letting him walk and then acquiring Schenn in ‘23. Meanwhile we could have avoided the whole mess and acquired Schenn at the low low price Vancouver paid for him as a UFA to begin with.
Then you consider the other piece connected to the first Lyubushkin trade. Toronto let Hyman walk as UFA, went out and spent his cap on Nick Ritchie and Peter Mrazek, and both pieces (of…) had to be disposed by downgrading draft capital.
Top it all off. The Leafs went out and got Matt Murray the same day they got rid of Mrazek. Even with retention MLSE basically spent $9 million plus on 23 Matt Murray games.
Literally every step of the way we saw poor decisions compounding against each other and spendthrift tendencies to just make things happen. Utter incompetence. Dubas is basically JFJ with a head start and good boardroom game.
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This isn't even right.
The 1st went to the McCabe trade that Treliving is still benefitting from.
The 2nd got us Lyubushkin.
The 3rd was part of Trelivings trade for Lyubushkin.
The 4th was for retention on O'Rielly, not Acciari.
Don’t think this was a money or position thing. Wes Clark’s contract ran out. He didn’t want to resign in Toronto. He wanted to work with Dubas, that’s his guy. James Mirtle said the organization has known about this move for a while. The understanding was this was going to be Wes Clark’s last draft
TheMadHatTrick
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- Nov 2, 2008
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Da Cool Rula
Registered User
Easton Cowan revealed that out of all of the departures from the Leafs organization, there was one that greatly affected him this summer.
Drafted in the first round of the 2023 NHL Entry Draft, Easton Cowan didn't have much time to get to know former director of amateur scouting Wes Clark, but in speaking with the media at the World Junior Summer Showcase, Cowan revealed that in the short amount of time they got to know each other, Clark had a massive impact on his development.
"Yeah, I was actually heartbroken when I saw that," Cowan said. "He was one of the guys who believed in me and drafted me. It's really unfortunate, I sent him a text. He's still sending me motivational quotes and still helping me out. It's hard to say no to a good job so I'm just happy for him and hopefully see him down the road at some point."
Drafted in the first round of the 2023 NHL Entry Draft, Easton Cowan didn't have much time to get to know former director of amateur scouting Wes Clark, but in speaking with the media at the World Junior Summer Showcase, Cowan revealed that in the short amount of time they got to know each other, Clark had a massive impact on his development.
"Yeah, I was actually heartbroken when I saw that," Cowan said. "He was one of the guys who believed in me and drafted me. It's really unfortunate, I sent him a text. He's still sending me motivational quotes and still helping me out. It's hard to say no to a good job so I'm just happy for him and hopefully see him down the road at some point."
Leafs scout Chris Roque is joining Wes Clark with the pens apparently.
Leaf Fans
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- Sep 29, 2017
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He was a Greyhounds scout before Dubas gave him the job with the Leafs. Makes sense·
Leaf Fans
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That wouldn't suprise anyone as he was hired directly from the Greyhounds as well.
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