Buffalo Bills Week 4: Bills @ Ravens

[Onry]

The cap says no.

As does his durability

 

[Jim Bob]

 

[kirby11]

In the scheme & magnitude of the entire season - no it's not important.

How is it not important when they're another potential high seed in the conference? We missed the one seed last year in large part because we lost to the Titans in week 6. I'd much rather not have to make up 1.5 games to Baltimore, even with three quarters(ish) of the season left.

 

[TehDoak]

The cap says no.

If you get NYG to retain then it wouldn't be hard to make it work. But let's see how the season goes.

 

[Husko]

Random thought RE: roster-building given the number of injuries the team has sustained so far.

I'm now in full agreement with @Husko that the Bills need to stop using roster spots on guys who provide zero value outside of special teams (i.e. Jones, Neal, Matakevich). Between the Bills not punting that much, and the fact that most kickoffs are non-events with the ball getting booted deep into or through the end zone, those guys are playing, what, 6-8 meaningful snaps at most per game? To be fair, I don't know if they're on FG/XP protection duty, so maybe bump that number up to 12-15. And, if pressed into offensive or defensive gameplay (which seems more likely this year compared to previous seasons), they'd probably be worse than other, potentially better skill position players who aren't true special teams aces. The fact that Neal, in particular, couldn't even get a look at CB over an undrafted rookie last week says a lot.

A convert!

But for real, the Neal stuff is particularly painful if you go back and read the discourse at the time they gave him that silly extension. Remember all that talk about how he's a versatile defensive swiss army knife because he covered a tight end once? Yet in a game where we were overrun with secondary positions EVERYWHERE he didn't see the field? That's what's worth 11 million over 3 years?

 

[Husko]

Re Rhodes: Not to be a debbie downer, but I'm seeing a lot of discourse about how he's a "zone heady" player and therefore a perfect fit for the Bills scheme. I wish that was true, buttttttt

Rhodes has spent most of his career as a man-exclusive corner. Coming out of college the biggest critique was that he had only played man. He dominated with the Vikings as an island-man corner where their entire scheme was putting him on an island in man coverage and letting him dominate physically. As soon as his physical prowess started to fall off his performance fell off a cliff because you can't play man without physical traits. He ended up getting cut as a result.

Now, that said, maybe he reinvented himself in Indy? Maybe he learned to be passable in zone there. I haven't followed closely enough to have a strong opinion. But all of the "he's an experienced zone corner!" takes just seem weird to be.

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

Re Rhodes: Not to be a debbie downer, but I'm seeing a lot of discourse about how he's a "zone heady" player and therefore a perfect fit for the Bills scheme. I wish that was true, buttttttt

Rhodes has spent most of his career as a man-exclusive corner. Coming out of college the biggest critique was that he had only played man. He dominated with the Vikings as an island-man corner where their entire scheme was putting him on an island in man coverage and letting him dominate physically. As soon as his physical prowess started to fall off his performance fell off a cliff because you can't play man without physical traits. He ended up getting cut as a result.

Now, that said, maybe he reinvented himself in Indy? Maybe he learned to be passable in zone there. I haven't followed closely enough to have a strong opinion. But all of the "he's an experienced zone corner!" takes just seem weird to be.

By November he could be starting next to Poyer at Safety.

 

[Zman5778]

I'm now in full agreement with @Husko that the Bills need to stop using roster spots on guys who provide zero value outside of special teams (i.e. Jones, Neal, Matakevich). Between the Bills not punting that much, and the fact that most kickoffs are non-events with the ball getting booted deep into or through the end zone, those guys are playing, what, 6-8 meaningful snaps at most per game?

Have you missed that Bass hasn't been booting them through the end zone? He's been getting a TON of hangtime on his kicks and our STers have been on top of the returners practically immediately. Opposing drives have been starting well within the 25 and sometimes within the 20.

It's clearly a tactic that we're using -- kick the kickoffs high and to a point right on the goal-line or to the 1 or 2, forcing a return. Our return units then gang tackle well within where a touchback would be.

 

[kirby11]

Have you missed that Bass hasn't been booting them through the end zone? He's been getting a TON of hangtime on his kicks and our STers have been on top of the returners practically immediately. Opposing drives have been starting well within the 25 and sometimes within the 20.

It's clearly a tactic that we're using -- kick the kickoffs high and to a point right on the goal-line or to the 1 or 2, forcing a return. Our return units then gang tackle well within where a touchback would be.

I’ve seen them do it a few times, but haven’t really kept close track of it. Glad it’s working, still wonder about the value of having so many ST only guys—admittedly, mostly because of all the injuries so far this season

 

[Zman5778]

I’ve seen them do it a few times, but haven’t really kept close track of it. Glad it’s working, still wonder about the value of having so many ST only guys—admittedly, mostly because of all the injuries so far this season

If we were doing nothing but kicking into the end zone, I might also disagree with the wisdom of keeping 3 ST-only guys around.

Matakevich and Neal I'd argue for anyways............Jones is the real big target for me if we decide to prune a STer-only guy.

 

[Puppa2Miller]

If we were doing nothing but kicking into the end zone, I might also disagree with the wisdom of keeping 3 ST-only guys around.

Matakevich and Neal I'd argue for anyways............Jones is the real big target for me if we decide to prune a STer-only guy.

The idea that some people think Neal is strictly a special teams guy is very unfair. The guy played very well at nickel when Taron Johnson was hurt 2 years ago. Johnson just so happens to have been healthy since the start of last year, thus the Bills haven't used Neal much in that stretch.

J. Johson was "strictly a special teamer" until Hyde got hurt. These guys are important players.

Matakevich is a middle ground for me. He is clearly the last LBer on the bench and has looked kinda passable in that role when he has been in during garbage time. I get the argument both ways with him.

Jones is just utterly uselsess beyond special teams. He shouldn't be here. Can't catch and can't run with the ball.

 

[Husko]

The idea that some people think Neal is strictly a special teams guy is very unfair. The guy played very well at nickel when Taron Johnson was hurt 2 years ago. Johnson just so happens to have been healthy since the start of last year, thus the Bills haven't used Neal much in that stretch.

J. Johson was "strictly a special teamer" until Hyde got hurt. These guys are important players.

Matakevich is a middle ground for me. He is clearly the last LBer on the bench and has looked kinda passable in that role when he has been in during garbage time. I get the argument both ways with him.

Jones is just utterly uselsess beyond special teams. He shouldn't be here. Can't catch and can't run with the ball.

He failed to record a single defensive snap in a game where our two starting safeties and 3 of our top 4 corners were all injured. They trusted Ja'Marcus Ingram to play 56% of defensive snaps but didn't trust Neal to give any of Johnson, Hamlin, or Johnson even one play off? (In a heat stroke game?) If Neal isn't just a special teamer, why won't they let him play on defense even in the most needy of situations?

 

[Puppa2Miller]

He failed to record a single defensive snap in a game where our two starting safeties and 3 of our top 4 corners were all injured. They trusted Ja'Marcus Ingram to play 56% of defensive snaps but didn't trust Neal to give any of Johnson, Hamlin, or Johnson even one play off? (In a heat stroke game?) If Neal isn't just a special teamer, why won't they let him play on defense even in the most needy of situations?

The guy is not a safety. NOT A SAFETY! He isn't a boundary corner! NOT A BOUNDARY CORNER! He would be the last DB in those situations and it did not reach that point in a game the defense was barely out there.

Why didn't Quintin Morris play OL when injuries hit? Probably because he is a TE. OMG. Case Keenum didn't play WR with all the injuries? Cut him now! OMG /S

You mentioned swiss army knife earlier. Neal isn't that. There are like 10 guys in the entire league that are truly like that. It has been a term thrown around way too loosely on this board.

 

[Husko]

The guy is not a safety. NOT A SAFETY! He isn't a boundary corner! NOT A BOUNDARY CORNER! He would be the last DB in those situations and it did not reach that point in a game the defense was barely out there.

Why didn't Quintin Morris play OL when injuries hit? Probably because he is a TE. OMG. Case Keenum didn't play WR with all the injuries? Cut him now! OMG /S

You mentioned swiss army knife earlier. Neal isn't that. There are like 10 guys in the entire league that are truly like that. It has been a term thrown around way too loosely on this board.

So what is he?

Edit: FWIW, the Bills official depth chart lists him as a backup boundary corner, not a nickel back.

 

[Puppa2Miller]

So what is he?

a nickel corner! I am sure you must have watched him 2 years ago when Taron Johnson was injured for a bit.

 

[Husko]

a nickel corner! I am sure you must have watched him 2 years ago when Taron Johnson was injured for a bit.

I assume you mean 2019 when Johnson missed weeks 2-5. Neal played 35%, 50%, 38%, and 24% of defensive snaps in those 4 games. If I'm being honest I have no recollection to how effective Neal was at the beginning of 3 seasons ago.

 

[Puppa2Miller]

I assume you mean 2019 when Johnson missed weeks 2-5. Neal played 35%, 50%, 38%, and 24% of defensive snaps in those 4 games. If I'm being honest I have no recollection to how effective Neal was at the beginning of 3 seasons ago.

I meant 2020, but I am probably conflating it with 2019. Memories, lol?! I was at the Steelers game in 2020 that Johsnon got hurt and Neal replaced him and did well. Johnson famously had a pick 6 before the injury.

 

[Dubi Doo]

He failed to record a single defensive snap in a game where our two starting safeties and 3 of our top 4 corners were all injured. They trusted Ja'Marcus Ingram to play 56% of defensive snaps but didn't trust Neal to give any of Johnson, Hamlin, or Johnson even one play off? (In a heat stroke game?) If Neal isn't just a special teamer, why won't they let him play on defense even in the most needy of situations?

McD said they didn't use Neal because of the heat. They didn't want to "double dip" between special teams and defensive snaps. Really tells you how hot it was out there!

Re Rhodes: Not to be a debbie downer, but I'm seeing a lot of discourse about how he's a "zone heady" player and therefore a perfect fit for the Bills scheme. I wish that was true, buttttttt

Rhodes has spent most of his career as a man-exclusive corner. Coming out of college the biggest critique was that he had only played man. He dominated with the Vikings as an island-man corner where their entire scheme was putting him on an island in man coverage and letting him dominate physically. As soon as his physical prowess started to fall off his performance fell off a cliff because you can't play man without physical traits. He ended up getting cut as a result.

Now, that said, maybe he reinvented himself in Indy? Maybe he learned to be passable in zone there. I haven't followed closely enough to have a strong opinion. But all of the "he's an experienced zone corner!" takes just seem weird to be.

Apparently he was really good in 2020 for Indy, but had an injury filled year last year and wasn't as noticeable. Hopefully he can provide decent depth if needed.

Also, so far, so good in regards to Miller. Apparently, the Bills pressured Tua quite a bit, but one of his best traits is how fast he gets the ball out, so I think he avoided pressure well. Still amazed to see how well Elam did in those circumstances. Hopefully that was his breakout game!



And, as I always say- screw PFF unless it supports my favorite teams players!

 

[Rowley Birkin]

How is it not important when they're another potential high seed in the conference? We missed the one seed last year in large part because we lost to the Titans in week 6. I'd much rather not have to make up 1.5 games to Baltimore, even with three quarters(ish) of the season left.

I'd much rather have my players in the best possible shape they can be in for the playoffs.

Stop acting like one week 4 regular season game is 'must win at all costs'.

Even if a loss to Baltimore would cost home advantage (it very likely won't) - I'd take a healthy squad w/o home advantage over a depleted squad with home advantage.

 

[truthbluth]

The more that comes out about it, the more I think it’s really messed up that the Dolphins stadium is designed to make the opposing team suffer. Having guys needing IVs just to play the game is a competitive advantage? May as well just allow steroids if player safety is not going to be a consideration at all.

 

[Jim Bob]

If you get NYG to retain then it wouldn't be hard to make it work. But let's see how the season goes.

I do not know if you can retain in NFL trades like you can in the NHL.

The Bills have less than $1.5M in cap space.

Barkley has a $7.2M cap hit and it is all base salary with him being a UFA after the season. There would be roughly $3.5-4M in remaining cap hit at the trade deadline.

Add in all the injuries and the probable need for some cap space to address injuries throughout the season and I just doubt this is something that Beane makes work.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

I do not know if you can retain in NFL trades like you can in the NHL.

The Bills have less than $1.5M in cap space.

Barkley has a $7.2M cap hit and it is all base salary with him being a UFA after the season. There would be roughly $3.5-4M in remaining cap hit at the trade deadline.

Add in all the injuries and the probable need for some cap space to address injuries throughout the season and I just doubt this is something that Beane makes work.

Even aside from the cap crunch or the injury history - trading for Barkley doesn't make much sense. It just isn't an area to invest big money in. There are very few prospects worthy of early picks - but aside from those exceptions I'm not even a fan of using draft capital on backs unless there are absolutely no holes left to fill. I loved Cook this year for example - but he should have gone R3 not R2.

I've actually liked what I've seen from our backs this year when they have been given the chance too. Obviously the play calling will heavily favour the pass & the OL needs to be better when they do favour the run. But between our 3 guys there are things to like.

 

[Jim Bob]

Even aside from the cap crunch or the injury history - trading for Barkley doesn't make much sense. It just isn't an area to invest big money in. There are very few prospects worthy of early picks - but aside from those exceptions I'm not even a fan of using draft capital on backs unless there are absolutely no holes left to fill. I loved Cook this year for example - but he should have gone R3 not R2.

I've actually liked what I've seen from our backs this year when they have been given the chance too. Obviously the play calling will heavily favour the pass & the OL needs to be better when they do favour the run. But between our 3 guys there are things to like.

The bigger issue than the RBs has been the lack of solid OL play in the running game.

I am guessing that they hope that the OL plays better before going after a short term guy like Barkley. With the Bills over the cap for next season, I do not believe there is any chance that they pay to extend Barkley. Heck, they are unlikely to keep the homegrown RB who will cost less.

 

[sabresfan129103]

I don't understand why people are getting their panties in a bunch over Ken Dorsey losing his shit at the end of the game. I loved it. The guy clearly has passion for the game and wants to win.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

The bigger issue than the RBs has been the lack of solid OL play in the running game.

I am guessing that they hope that the OL plays better before going after a short term guy like Barkley. With the Bills over the cap for next season, I do not believe there is any chance that they pay to extend Barkley. Heck, they are unlikely to keep the homegrown RB who will cost less.

Exactly - draft a guy each year in R3/R4 & keep replenishing your RB room that way.

I'd be very surprised (also disappointed) if Singletary were to be extended. Nothing against him as a player - i think he's generally under rated - but it just doesn't mesh with the long term cap.

Running backs tend to fall off a cliff production wise after a certain point too. Even the beat ones. Especially quickly if they ever had injury issues like Barkley.