We have a GM problem

[Hawkaholic]

The Hawks wasted so much time 2017-18 through 2020-21, basically four seasons when they needed to rebuild but were chasing mediocrity. In a perfect world, Bedard comes at the end of a rebuild

For sure, traded their picks in 2022, so they had to gut the team to get picks that lined up with their rebuild. I can't think of any teams that gutted their team like Chicago did, its going to take a while to rebuild it properly. But they can take the shortcut and start signing UFAs and be a playoff team that doesn't ever win anything.

 

[Castle8130]

It's crazy to think its going to be a 5 year rebuild. Especially when you started out with literally nothing. There were no prospects in the pipeline when they tore it down, there was no good to elite NHLers on the team when they drafted Bedard. 7-9 years is a much more realistic time frame for your prospects to develop to be great to elite players. After 7 years, you hope to be contending for the playoffs, 9 years you hope you are winning your division/championships.

Point me to a team who started out with nothing and became a contender in less than 7 years. You can't find a team that did that. Most teams who had a 1st overall pick had players around those picks to help them. Chicago had nothing.

We are one of, if not, the most attractive franchise for free agents. The Hawks pockets are deep and the facilities are top notch. We can get the strongest talent in free agency to bolster the roster at any time. The Hawks already had Vlasic/Crevier/Allen/EDM in the pipeline when KD decided to blow up everything to get Bedard. We have Seth Jones on the roster who has been a fine #3 and KD decided to let Strome go so we could suck.

The Hawks are more than capable of signing/trading for players to become a competitive team at anytime. Just like all the other powerhouse teams, you get 3-5 high end prospects and build around them through free agency signings and trades.

 

[Hawkaholic]

We are one of, if not, the most attractive franchise for free agents. The Hawks pockets are deep and the facilities are top notch. We can get the strongest talent in free agency to bolster the roster at any time. The Hawks already had Vlasic/Crevier/Allen/EDM in the pipeline when KD decided to blow up everything to get Bedard. We have Seth Jones on the roster who has been a fine #3 and KD decided to let Strome go so we could suck.

The Hawks are more than capable of signing/trading for players to become a competitive team at anytime. Just like all the other powerhouse teams, you get 3-5 high end prospects and build around them through free agency signings and trades.

Signing big free agents is a recipe for disaster. The other powerhouse teams didn't sign big free agents to make their teams better, they made savvy trades or developed their own, and made a signing when they were already a playoff team.

None of the guys you mentioned outside of Vlasic are good to elite, and Seth Jones is hopefully on his way out sooner rather than later.

 

[ClydeLee]

We are one of, if not, the most attractive franchise for free agents. The Hawks pockets are deep and the facilities are top notch. We can get the strongest talent in free agency to bolster the roster at any time. The Hawks already had Vlasic/Crevier/Allen/EDM in the pipeline when KD decided to blow up everything to get Bedard. We have Seth Jones on the roster who has been a fine #3 and KD decided to let Strome go so we could suck.

The Hawks are more than capable of signing/trading for players to become a competitive team at anytime. Just like all the other powerhouse teams, you get 3-5 high end prospects and build around them through free agency signings and trades.

This is a recipe for mediocrity. This pathway is based on zero teams that have done this to win a Cup. You want another Wild or Rangers (at best doing that)

Meanwhile every normal comparable Cup winner sans St Louis, has had years of basement getting multiple top 5 picks, who has won a cup in the cap era since 2011? It's like 1 in a decade that works, it's like winning in the nfl with an ok QB. It's not the model to copy

None of the powerhouse teams do this... Florida had a 1 2 and 3. Tampa had a 1 2 and 3, Pittsburgh had 2 1sts and 2 2nd overalls. Hawks had a 1, 2, 3. Caps has a 1, 4 & 5. There's several of those that weren't great picks, the smart move sometimes you quickly trade a guy for another great prospect like Tampa & Chicago did to help. You need these picks and time. I'd say the Hawks and Pens were exceptions that won quick because their teams cheapness held them back before the cap started.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Need a random, no reason for it breakout. Or 2. Whether it's a 2nd/3rd round pick that's a superstar. A random guy you trade for that hits a completely unexpected level. A waiver pickup that becomes your Number 1 Defenseman. Something like that. League is generally small/random enough for this kind of stuff to happen for anyone.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

Need a random, no reason for it breakout. Or 2. Whether it's a 2nd/3rd round pick that's a superstar. A random guy you trade for that hits a completely unexpected level. A waiver pickup that becomes your Number 1 Defenseman. Something like that. League is generally small/random enough for this kind of stuff to happen for anyone.

Maybe a chance Rinzel or Kantserov is that?

 

[Kevin Musto]

Maybe a chance Rinzel or Kantserov is that?

Rinzel for sure has that kind of upside.

Lardis is putting up nasty numbers, and could be a top 6er.

John Mustard is quite good and that doesn't get mentioned ever. He's very young too with his August birthday.

 

[Bubba88]

8-9 years to rebuild is fine if you want to contend then. 8-9 years of rebuild just to get to the POs seems a bit long.

If you make the POs on the back of young players, that's saying you have done something right. To contend, it takes more than that.

 

[Sarava]

For sure, traded their picks in 2022, so they had to gut the team to get picks that lined up with their rebuild. I can't think of any teams that gutted their team like Chicago did, its going to take a while to rebuild it properly. But they can take the shortcut and start signing UFAs and be a playoff team that doesn't ever win anything.

They didn't have to gut their team...they chose too. I agree, they took this down to the studs further than you see other teams do it. It was almost like they were copying what the Cubs and Sox did in baseball, moreso than following other NHL teams' path to success. Actually probably more like the White Sox, who's rebuild failed spectacularly.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that the Hawks have had 8 1st round picks and 5 2nd round picks in the last 3 drafts. They have another 2+2 lined up for this coming draft (could end up being more or less).

They shouldn't need to tank for more top 5 picks after this season.

Now let's start to erase this losing culture and get it moving in the right direction. Get Bedard a stud to play with and help his development. Stop relying on aging former stars to help Bedard.

It will take time. We all get that. They won't be a cup contender in the next few years.

But this hesitancy by some fans to even try and be competitive is bizarre. It's what we all used to make fun of when Edmonton fans acted like they won the Stanley Cup every time they secured another top pick in the draft.

 

[GIADF]

Let's not lose sight of the fact that the Hawks have had 8 1st round picks and 5 2nd round picks in the last 3 drafts. They have another 2+2 lined up for this coming draft (could end up being more or less).

Yep, exactly. If we need another 2-3 top 5 picks after this next draft like some posters suggest then things are going poorly enough that I wouldn't blame Bedard, or anyone else for that matter, for asking for a trade out of this mess.

With consecutive drafts of 1 OA, 2 OA, and whatever this draft yields us + the other picks you mentioned. That plus all the cap space they have should be plenty to get the ball rolling in the right direction.

We will see what the off season brings, I think it'll be a make or break situation for KD.

 

[Hawkaholic]

They didn't have to gut their team...they chose too. I agree, they took this down to the studs further than you see other teams do it. It was almost like they were copying what the Cubs and Sox did in baseball, moreso than following other NHL teams' path to success. Actually probably more like the White Sox, who's rebuild failed spectacularly.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that the Hawks have had 8 1st round picks and 5 2nd round picks in the last 3 drafts. They have another 2+2 lined up for this coming draft (could end up being more or less).

They shouldn't need to tank for more top 5 picks after this season.

Now let's start to erase this losing culture and get it moving in the right direction. Get Bedard a stud to play with and help his development. Stop relying on aging former stars to help Bedard.

It will take time. We all get that. They won't be a cup contender in the next few years.

But this hesitancy by some fans to even try and be competitive is bizarre. It's what we all used to make fun of when Edmonton fans acted like they won the Stanley Cup every time they secured another top pick in the draft.

I'm not saying they are going to tank for another 3+ seasons, I just dont think they will be a legit contender for another 5 seasons or so. Maybe they get lucky and get into the playoffs in 3 years, or are at least competing for a spot and come up short in 3-5 years. I don't consider the rebuild over if they are doing that though, the rebuild is over when we are a legit playoff team that can win a couple or a few playoff rounds.

I dont think there is hesitancy from some fans (like me) to be competitive, its just how do you go about becoming competitive that people disagree on. I just dont think signing big free agents (unless you can wow McDavid to come here) is the way to go.

 

[TLEH]

I'm not saying they are going to tank for another 3+ seasons, I just dont think they will be a legit contender for another 5 seasons or so. Maybe they get lucky and get into the playoffs in 3 years, or are at least competing for a spot and come up short in 3-5 years. I don't consider the rebuild over if they are doing that though, the rebuild is over when we are a legit playoff team that can win a couple or a few playoff rounds.

I dont think there is hesitancy from some fans (like me) to be competitive, its just how do you go about becoming competitive that people disagree on. I just dont think signing big free agents (unless you can wow McDavid to come here) is the way to go.

I just think with the cap numbers being what they are, its sort of a get out of jail free card to take some additional risks.

 

[Pertti]

Like what? Pittsburgh had legit NHLers and Malkin and Fleury drafted on their team when they drafted Crosby, Tampa had Martin St. Louis, Lecavalier, etc when they drafted Stamkos and drafted Hedman the next year, old Hawks had a plethora of great prospects in the pipeline when they drafted Toews and Kane and Dalls never rebuilt at all, and they haven't won jack squat.

Those are completely differnet situations than what the Hawks are in right now.

We had DeBrincat and Dach drafted and Strome traded and we sold them to away before we ended up nothing.

 

[SimpleJack]

We had DeBrincat and Dach drafted and Strome traded and we sold them to away before we ended up nothing.

I just read this sentence 4 times in a row trying to figure it out and now my head hurts.

 

[WarriorofTime]

People just need to be realistic about certain things, like if you trade Seth Jones before the start of next season, that doesn't make the team better for 2025-26. That doesn't mean you don't do it, but just realize that leaves a big hole unless Levshunov and Rinzel are both suddenly ready and don't have growing pains, which would of course be surprising. The only 01s and 02s who are the really ideally aged players from normal cycles (23/24 years old next season) to be "ready to now go from young and breaking into NHL to ones that are turning into winning players" are Vlasic, Crevier, Reichel, Slaggert, Kaiser, which is fine but largely depth. You're still largely waiting on a lot of your most notable pieces to come through.

 

[Hattrick Kane]

People just need to be realistic about certain things, like if you trade Seth Jones before the start of next season, that doesn't make the team better for 2025-26. That doesn't mean you don't do it, but just realize that leaves a big hole unless Levshunov and Rinzel are both suddenly ready and don't have growing pains, which would of course be surprising. The only 01s and 02s who are the really ideally aged players from normal cycles (23/24 years old next season) to be "ready to now go from young and breaking into NHL to ones that are turning into winning players" are Vlasic, Crevier, Reichel, Slaggert, Kaiser, which is fine but largely depth. You're still largely waiting on a lot of your most notable pieces to come through.

We saw life without Jones already, they won three games in a row for the first time in years lol.

Jones just doesn’t have the impact you want on the team, hence why he’s available. No they won’t be significantly better or anything, but they aren’t getting worse either.

 

[Crow]

Jones has been very good lately. He definitely has his ups and downs and I’m not entirely sure if they are based on his compete or health but he can be a pretty damn good player still for long stretches. I wouldn’t give him up or pay to get rid of him yet. To me it’s worth seeing how prospects continue to progress. He is at worse a minutes eater who does no harm in any way. Sometimes he is pretty bad, sometimes he is very good. We also are going to need some guys like him short term to meet the floor. I don’t think he is worth dismissing unless we get something out of it.

 

[WarriorofTime]

We saw life without Jones already, they won three games in a row for the first time in years lol.

Jones just doesn’t have the impact you want on the team, hence why he’s available. No they won’t be significantly better or anything, but they aren’t getting worse either.

Yeah it was 11-22-4 vs. 6-9-2 when out but there’s also just some variance to that. He eats a lot of minutes, is productive offensively especially on powerplay and plays the right side which most of our young guys aren’t very well equipped to do because the ready one are LHD.

 

[TheFridge]

They didn't have to gut their team...they chose too. I agree, they took this down to the studs further than you see other teams do it. It was almost like they were copying what the Cubs and Sox did in baseball, moreso than following other NHL teams' path to success. Actually probably more like the White Sox, who's rebuild failed spectacularly.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that the Hawks have had 8 1st round picks and 5 2nd round picks in the last 3 drafts. They have another 2+2 lined up for this coming draft (could end up being more or less).

They shouldn't need to tank for more top 5 picks after this season.

Now let's start to erase this losing culture and get it moving in the right direction. Get Bedard a stud to play with and help his development. Stop relying on aging former stars to help Bedard.

It will take time. We all get that. They won't be a cup contender in the next few years.

But this hesitancy by some fans to even try and be competitive is bizarre. It's what we all used to make fun of when Edmonton fans acted like they won the Stanley Cup every time they secured another top pick in the draft.

The irony, of course, is that Edmonton did get those picks and are now a perennial cup contender with two of the best five players in the world as their top centres.

The Bedard pick really f***ed with the average fan too much. This isn't the NBA or NFL. One superstar young player isn't enough on their own to turn around a franchise completely. We're literally two and a half years into this rebuild and fans are mad that they aren't competitive enough yet, when the goal is still to acquire high-end young talent. They're still in the foundational portion of the rebuild and it's right where they should be, Bedard or no Bedard.

You start trying to accelerate this thing and all you're going to accomplish is right back where they were before they started the rebuild: the middle. Not good enough to make the playoffs, not bad enough to draft high enough to draft high-end young talent.

 

[Sarava]

The irony, of course, is that Edmonton did get those picks and are now a perennial cup contender with two of the best five players in the world as their top centres.

The Bedard pick really f***ed with the average fan too much. This isn't the NBA or NFL. One superstar young player isn't enough on their own to turn around a franchise completely. We're literally two and a half years into this rebuild and fans are mad that they aren't competitive enough yet, when the goal is still to acquire high-end young talent. They're still in the foundational portion of the rebuild and it's right where they should be, Bedard or no Bedard.

You start trying to accelerate this thing and all you're going to accomplish is right back where they were before they started the rebuild: the middle. Not good enough to make the playoffs, not bad enough to draft high enough to draft high-end young talent.

Edmonton's 1st of 4 #1 OA picks was 15 years ago. and they had top 10 picks 2 of the 3 drafts before that. So we're going back to 2007 here. I'm sorry, but I'm not on board with an 18 year rebuild.

I do hope for their fans' sake they win a cup eventually. The fans that are too young for the Gretzky era deserve one after what they've been put through.

Again though - 10 firsts and 7 2nds in 4 years - and you say they need to continue sucking for high end young talent? Is this a lack of confidence in Kyle's drafting and developing? That sounds more like a plan to throw a bucket full of shit against the wall and cross your fingers that a bunch of it sticks.

 

[MHO]

Edmonton's 1st of 4 #1 OA picks was 15 years ago. and they had top 10 picks 2 of the 3 drafts before that. So we're going back to 2007 here. I'm sorry, but I'm not on board with an 18 year rebuild.

I do hope for their fans' sake they win a cup eventually. The fans that are too young for the Gretzky era deserve one after what they've been put through.

Again though - 10 firsts and 7 2nds in 4 years - and you say they need to continue sucking for high end young talent? Is this a lack of confidence in Kyle's drafting and developing? That sounds more like a plan to throw a bucket full of shit against the wall and cross your fingers that a bunch of it sticks.

How do you define when a rebuild ends? Is it when a team finally wins the cup? In that case, Edmonton is in a 44 year rebuild and every team except 1 is technically in one. I'd say a rebuild ends somewhere between where a team is competing for the playoffs and becomes a legit cup contender.

But I do agree that at this point, the Hawks should try and be better and not worse at this point. They likely won't get McKenna but there are gonna be a bunch of great players coming out that year and they'll likely be picking between 4-6.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

Edmonton's 1st of 4 #1 OA picks was 15 years ago. and they had top 10 picks 2 of the 3 drafts before that. So we're going back to 2007 here. I'm sorry, but I'm not on board with an 18 year rebuild.

I do hope for their fans' sake they win a cup eventually. The fans that are too young for the Gretzky era deserve one after what they've been put through.

Again though - 10 firsts and 7 2nds in 4 years - and you say they need to continue sucking for high end young talent? Is this a lack of confidence in Kyle's drafting and developing? That sounds more like a plan to throw a bucket full of shit against the wall and cross your fingers that a bunch of it sticks.

Leafs teardown is probably the blue print but then you need to land Matthews, Marner and Nylander in consecutive drafts...obviously we want the Hawks to walk away a more balanced team than the Leafs but the ceiling of the rebuild is determined by how good the drafts are and who you luck into...if we had Bedard and Celebrini out there every night right now we would be talking about the teardown ending very soon

 

[WarriorofTime]

I have no idea what people even want… These arbitrary timetables are bs.

 

[TheFridge]

Edmonton's 1st of 4 #1 OA picks was 15 years ago. and they had top 10 picks 2 of the 3 drafts before that. So we're going back to 2007 here. I'm sorry, but I'm not on board with an 18 year rebuild.

I do hope for their fans' sake they win a cup eventually. The fans that are too young for the Gretzky era deserve one after what they've been put through.

Again though - 10 firsts and 7 2nds in 4 years - and you say they need to continue sucking for high end young talent? Is this a lack of confidence in Kyle's drafting and developing? That sounds more like a plan to throw a bucket full of shit against the wall and cross your fingers that a bunch of it sticks.

Right but it didn't take 18 years, did it? They made the playoffs in McDavid's second season, had a couple bubble/mid seasons where they missed and then have been in the playoffs for what is about to be the 6th consecutive year. The only player drafted from that string of consecutive 1st overall picks that's even there anymore is RNH.

And the Oilers did things that were dumb during their rebuild too. Constantly cycling through coaches, GMs, etc. Making bad trades. But you get a couple of uber elite talents from the draft and it doesn't even matter.

You've done it twice now and I get it, you think it helps your point, but conflating a top-3 pick with a 1st round pick in any other part of the round is moronic. You get that right? Most of those 1st round picks have been in the back half of the 1st round. You're not getting, generally speaking, elite talent in the back-half of the 1st round. It can and does happen, but your chances dwindle dramatically as the 1st round goes on. Hell, your chances of getting a franchise-altering player drops dramatically ususally at pick number 2 most years.

Top-3 picks = Bedard, Levshunov
Top-10 picks = Korchinski
Top-15 picks = Nazar

Everyone else was selected in the back-half of the 1st round.

So yeah, I'd say pinning your rebuild on Bedard and Levshunov, while hoping a bunch of other very good prospects pop off into the elite category is actually taking a bucket of shit and throwing it against the wall hoping something sticks. I like a lot of the kids Davidson's drafted. But in the ranges they were drafted, they were never projected to be stars. You need stars to contend.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Edmonton has been a consistent good team since 2019-20 which is ten years after picking Hall first. And they made so many mistakes along the way that delayed their timeline. And have still been a consistent and very real Stanley Cup threat for four straight seasons.