WCH - Impressions of the Tournament

[jj cale]

This would be true with or without gimmick teams.

I was just thinking about it, in my view the NHL has the best refs in the world. They let the guys play with more physicality and let them dictate the outcome. They understand that refs shouldn't be the centre of the show.

I think European fans are used to the refs calling every single penalty and a tight game. That's very different from how the North American game is played. The players have more leeway and can play more on edge, the penalties aren't called as tight.

It's not that the refs favour any team. They don't. NHL refs are by far the best in the world, it's more North American hockey is very different than European hockey and fans probably were not/are not used to the refs letting the players get away with more. This applies for both teams equally.

Exactly. I've been saying and have known that for a long time.

It's pretty obvious.

 

[snipes]

Exactly. I've been saying and have known that for a long time.

It's pretty obvious.

Maybe we need some more European allies. Suomi seems like a logical candidate. They have some outstanding young stars and talents who will be big time NHL players.

They're doing a pretty cool documentary on the lead up to these games. Hopefully they can see the light and support the NHL more.

At least with the NHL, the players have a strong union and are compensated. They also get 50% of the revenues from this. That makes me happy, I want the players to receive the benefit of their labour. The IOC and IIHF would never even fathom sharing profits with the players like that.

 

[Lepardi]

Sometimes, I think some Europeans forget our sense of fairness and committing to what is right. It's integral to us as a country.

As a European, I've seen the videos from 1987. If you really aren't able to admit how horrible the home refereeing was, then the denial is beyond me. Ofcourse I've already understood that to you this just makes me a bitter Russian whiner. But I know I'm not Russian and I know I don't like the country. That's not what it's about, it's about calling it as it is.

 

[snipes]

As a European, I've seen the videos from 1987. If you really aren't able to admit how horrible the home refereeing was, then the denial is beyond me. Ofcourse I've already understood that to you this just makes me a bitter Russian whiner. But I know I'm not Russian and I know I don't like the country. That's not what it's about.

Why? Because of cherry picked incidents?

The game is just not called as tightly in North America. Not every infraction results in a penalty.

 

[Lepardi]

You have most of the posters from Europe around here saying the NHL should change it's scheduled season in order that all their players are available for the WHC every year.

Nice strawman there. I've never demanded such a thing, and neither has the vast majority of European posters.

But the soccer players, oh, that's different..............they need rest and should be accomodated for.

Precious darlings.

You know the soccer season for European clubs runs from mid-August to mid-May? That's nine months. Already a month more than the NHL season is for Stanley Cup finalists. And it's nine months for all the teams, while in the NHL 14 out of the 30 teams only play competitive hockey for six months.

After the club season is over in May, the best soccer players go straight to their national teams to prepare for the Euros/Copa. The Euro final this year was on July 10th. Were they to take part in the Olympics, they'd have go straight from the Euros into the preparation for that tournament. The Olympic soccer tournament ends in late August. By going there the players miss some of their club teams' first league games, cause the Premier League and La Liga for instance were already underway during the Olympics.

So a combination of domestic league, domestic cup, domestic league cup, UEFA Champions League, EURO2016 and the Olympics would mean that the elite soccer players in Europe would get about three weeks off from competitive football in July and August, and no time off from football altogether. There would be no vacation and no time to really prepare pyhysically for the coming season at any point. The Sharks and Penguins players who take part in the World Cup this fall get three months off from competitive hockey. The last Stanley Cup final was played on June 12th, and the World Cup begins on September 17th.

"Precious little darlings" indeed, those soccer players, not being ready to play competitive football 11 months a year, when the NHL stars already play competitive hockey for eight, and sometimes even nine months. If their team is one of the best in the NHL. Otherwise it's more like six or seven months.

 

[jj cale]

Why? Because of cherry picked incidents?

The game is just not called as tightly in North America. Not every infraction results in a penalty.

And there were calls and calls not made made there that had me pissed at the time.

Out of my memory banks I can recall a Russian player blatantly hooking Ray Bourque and hauling him down at our blueline and a Russian player picks up the puck to go in a breakaway and score.

I could cherry pick stuff like that and say the NHL refs were giving the Russians some breaks in order that they prove they were not biased.

We can all do that going either way.

It is different officiating over here as you have pointed out. Every single year we go over to the WHC and put up with and have to adjust to all those b.s penalties that IIHF reffing considers legit but that our players think and know are ridiculous compared to how the game is called over here, European teams have that edge there EVERY year but do we complain and say they are out to get us? Nope.

Well, I did hear the Finnish team complain about the reffing there after that elimination game with Russia a few short years back.Olli Jokinen was even crying foul about it all in an interview after the game.

What does that tell you? they can't even think IIHF refs are impartial when they lose.

Let's all step back and consider that for a moment.

But you put a tournament in N.A with N.A refs and sit back and watch the moaning and groaning.

It's getting a little old with me and I can't help but be at my end with it all.

Quit *****ing and play gentlemen.

 

[DoyleG]

Not all, but there are a fair number of posters who dislike this World Cup and disliked all previous editions just because the NHL was the organizing body. A lot of the old suspects in that regard haven't posted much about this tournament actually, but your idea that some will blindly champion the Olympics as superior to Canada/World Cups is definitely true on this website at least. The Olympic soccer tournament has nothing to do with it though. Some will not accept the NHL organizing the tournament even when the NHL does a good job.

Or perhaps the NHL is only interested in NHL. NBA and MLB have learned that being miserable being when it comes to international play doesn't help. Even with the WBC having issues about quality and attendance, they've improved since working with the existing partners rather than trying to be the bully.

Basically, they've copied the Stern playbook in how to expand one's international presence. Bettman obviously never learned that lesson since he though the NHL could bully it way around and get what it wants.

No wonder the whole history of WCH has been such a joke to the sporting world. Monkey's would've done a better job of organizing it than the NHL ever could.

Hence why people get so peeved at the Bettman sock puppets who come in and say thing about the WCH that are absolute BS. Anywhere else and they would've been thrown off the mountain a long time ago.

 

[jj cale]

Nice strawman there. I've never demanded such a thing, and neither has the vast majority of European posters.




You know the soccer season for European clubs runs from mid-August to mid-May? That's nine months. Already a month more than the NHL season is for Stanley Cup finalists. And it's nine months for all the teams, while in the NHL 14 out of the 30 teams only play competitive hockey for six months.

After the club season is over in May, the best soccer players go straight to their national teams to prepare for the Euros/Copa. The Euro final this year was on July 10th. Were they to take part in the Olympics, they'd have go straight into the preparation for that tournament. The Olympic soccer tournament ends in late August. By going there the players miss some of their club teams' first league games, cause the Premier League and La Liga for instance were already underway during the Olympics.

So a combination of domestic league, domestic cup, domestic league cup, UEFA Champions League, EURO2016 and the Olympics would mean that the elite soccer players in Europe would get about three weeks off from competitive football and no time off of football altogether. There would be no vacation at any point. The Sharks and Penguins players who take part in the World Cup this fall get three months off of competitive hockey. The last Stanley Cup final was played on June 12th, and the World Cup begins on September 17th.

"Precious little darlings" indeed, those soccer players, not being ready to play competitive football all year round.

I have nothing against you lepardi so I think it is only the neighbourly think to do in advising you not to waste anymore of your time in trying to convince me on this matter any longer.

Thank you, my questions have all been answered!!

You would be better off using what I am sure is valuable time of yours in trying to convince some other Canadian dupe of your argument regarding this subject.

I am sure you will find willing saps, but it won't be me.

You are not going to convince me now knowing what I know, so don't bother.

P.S...................this goes for anyone else who I am sure will try to rush in with their counter arguments concerning all this.

The olympics likes gimmicks..........no more needs to be learned on my end.

 

[JackSlater]

Why? Because of cherry picked incidents?

The game is just not called as tightly in North America. Not every infraction results in a penalty.

I do think that the referee style favoured Canada somewhat there, since the Soviets had almost no familiarity with that style of refereeing, but there is a lot of revision. For all the crying about Hawerchuk hooking on the final Canadian goal, a person can check out the hook on Bourque that lead to the third (third or fourth...) Soviet goal. Not bothering to find the video now, but the refereeing was bad in the same way that all 1980s refereeing was bad. A lot of exaggeration takes place about that tournament. You would almost think that the refereeing was as bad as the refereeing in the Moscow portion of the Summit Series.

Or perhaps the NHL is only interested in NHL. NBA and MLB have learned that being miserable being when it comes to international play doesn't help. Even with the WBC having issues about quality and attendance, they've improved since working with the existing partners rather than trying to be the bully.

Basically, they've copied the Stern playbook in how to expand one's international presence. Bettman obviously never learned that lesson since he though the NHL could bully it way around and get what it wants.

No wonder the whole history of WCH has been such a joke to the sporting world. Monkey's would've done a better job of organizing it than the NHL ever could.

Hence why people get so peeved at the Bettman sock puppets who come in and say thing about the WCH that are absolute BS. Anywhere else and they would've been thrown off the mountain a long time ago.

The NHl has proven that it can properly organize an international best on best tournament. What exactly are your criticisms with the previous two World Cup tournaments that the NHL organized?

 

[Lepardi]

I have nothing against you lepardi so I think it is only the neighbourly think to do in advising you not to waste anymore of your time in trying to convince me on this matter any longer.

I understand you have no counter-arguments, cause you don't have the faintest idea of what you're talking about when you talk about soccer.

I just have to ask you this: what would you think if Sidney Crosby had to go straight from the Stanley Cup finals to Team Canada to prepare for the North American hockey championships. He'd have a two-week training camp and then he'd be representing Canada in the continental championship tournament for the whole of July. Once that tournament is over, he'd go straight into the preparation for the World Cup of hockey. The World Cup would begin on August 21st and last three weeks. Once the World Cup is over in September, he would go straight back to the Penguins, whose NHL season has already begun during the last days of the World Cup. From there on he'd play competitive hockey for the Penguins for the next nine months. There would be no vacation and no time for summer-training at any point.

Do you think that it would make Sidney a "precious darling" if under those circumstances he'd want to skip either the continental championships or the World Cup. Cause that's what the calendar would look like for elite soccer players, were they to take part in both the Euros AND the Olympics.

Ofcourse there will be no answer, cause by the "pigeon playing chess" -logic you've already won the argument by taking a dump on the board.

 

[snipes]

I do think that the referee style favoured Canada somewhat there, since the Soviets had almost no familiarity with that style of refereeing, but there is a lot of revision. For all the crying about Hawerchuk hooking on the final Canadian goal, a person can check out the hook on Bourque that lead to the third (third or fourth...) Soviet goal. Not bothering to find the video now, but the refereeing was bad in the same way that all 1980s refereeing was bad. A lot of exaggeration takes place about that tournament. You would almost think that the refereeing was as bad as the refereeing in the Moscow portion of the Summit Series.

No kidding, that was objectively the worst attempt at blatantly trying to alter the outcome I've ever seen.

I just think that Europeans were not used to NHL rules. North American rules and how the game is called is different than it is in Europe. You can get away with more in North America, penalties are not called as frequently. It goes that way for both teams, both sides are allowed to play more aggressively.

There was no attempt to alter the outcome at the Canada Cup. That seems so absurd that we would ever try to do that. Maybe some projecting is going on because that's something other countries might think of and try to do? (i.e. the ref substitution in 1972 in Moscow).

A more simple and innocent explanation exists, the NHL refs simply let the guys battle it out. It was poor for both sides. North American hockey is interpreted differently, we don't call every possible penalty. We prefer the players solve it themselves.

 

[jj cale]

You know the soccer season for European clubs runs from mid-August to mid-May? That's nine months. Already a month more than the NHL season is for Stanley Cup finalists. And it's nine months for all the teams, while in the NHL 14 out of the 30 teams only play competitive hockey for six months.

After the club season is over in May, the best soccer players go straight to their national teams to prepare for the Euros/Copa. The Euro final this year was on July 10th. Were they to take part in the Olympics, they'd have go straight from the Euros into the preparation for that tournament. The Olympic soccer tournament ends in late August. By going there the players miss some of their club teams' first league games, cause the Premier League and La Liga for instance were already underway during the Olympics.

So a combination of domestic league, domestic cup, domestic league cup, UEFA Champions League, EURO2016 and the Olympics would mean that the elite soccer players in Europe would get about three weeks off from competitive football in July and August, and no time off from football altogether. There would be no vacation and no time to really prepare pyhysically for the coming season at any point. The Sharks and Penguins players who take part in the World Cup this fall get three months off from competitive hockey. The last Stanley Cup final was played on June 12th, and the World Cup begins on September 17th.

I loved this part.

His argument for why they can't play in the olympics is because of the length of the domestic leagues and whatnot. They wouldn't have a break he says.

Well then why can't they just do what so many posters here have demanded the NHL do to cater to the olympics and WHC? shorten your domestic league schedules by a healthy amount in order that you give the players the opportunity to play in the olympics if the olympics are what you declare it to be..........the be all and end all of international sport.

Shorten schedules, get rid of unneeded tournaments such as the champions league,whatever needs to be done................make it happen. After all, it's the holy olympics correct?

Are those domestic leagues so horribly greedy that they cannot manage to make that monetary sacrifice for the good of the international game?

You guys are really something else, for the NHL and hockey..........you demand different standards and take no account of their business needs. You demand they follow your view of things and nothing else matters to you.

But soccer leagues, well, that is a different story.

You'll give them all the leeway they desire.

If the powers that be in soccer wanted to be in the olympics they could make it happen, but they don't, and you do not have a problem with that.

Then you shouldn't have a problem with the NHL looking after it's own interests first either.

 

[jj cale]

I understand you have no counter-arguments, cause you don't have the faintest idea of what you're talking about when you talk about soccer.

I just have to ask you this: what would you think if Sidney Crosby had to go straight from the Stanley Cup finals to Team Canada to prepare for the North American hockey championships. He'd have a two-week training camp and then he'd be representing Canada in the continental championship tournament for the whole of July. Once that tournament is over, he'd go straight into the preparation for the World Cup of hockey. The World Cup would begin on August 21st and last three weeks. Once the World Cup is over in September, he would go straight back to the Penguins, whose NHL season has already begun during the last days of the World Cup. From there on he'd play competitive hockey for the Penguins for the next nine months. There would be no vacation and no time for summer-training at any point.

Do you think that it would make Sidney a "precious darling" if under those circumstances he'd want to skip either the continental championships or the World Cup. Cause that's what the calendar would look like for elite soccer players, were they to take part in both the Euros AND the Olympics.

Ofcourse there will be no answer, cause by the "pigeon playing chess" -logic you've already won the argument by taking a dump on the board.

I just gave you a counter argument.

But if I don't argue with you it's because i really don't have to anymore.

You have a silly gimmick event in the most important global sport at the olympics and you rag on the nhl for it?

That's all the argument I need.

You wanna post hypocrisy don't count on me backing you up.

 

[Lepardi]

For all the crying about Hawerchuk hooking on the final Canadian goal

There's no point in crying about calls like that. There was only one referee back then, and he can't be looking at Hawerchuk at that point, cause he has to follow the puck-carrier. Those are the kind of infractions that can't be spotted in a one-referee system. A similar incident happened in the World Championship final in 1994, when Brind'Amour hooked Kurrri and Robitaille scored. People are still bitter about that in Finland, but the referee had no chance of spotting that, cause he was out there alone and had to look at the puck.

But when a Soviet player scores and a Canadian guy slashes him in the head right in front of the referee and that goes unpenalized, that's not something that just happens. That's the kind of thing that only happens when there's intent.

 

[jj cale]

There's no point in crying about calls like that. There was only one referee back then, and he can't be looking at Hawerchuk at that point, cause he has to follow the puck-carrier. Those are the kind of infractions that can't be spotted in a one-referee system. A similar incident happened in the World Championship final in 1994, when Brind'Amour hooked Kurrri and Robitaille scored. People are still bitter about that in Finland, but the referee had no chance of spotting that, cause he was out there alone and had to look at the puck.

But when a Soviet player scores and a Canadian guy slashes him in the head right in front of the referee and that goes unpenalized, that's not something that just happens. That's the kind of thing that only happens when there's intent.

And?

Are you saying they were robbed of victory because of that?

 

[Lepardi]

Well then why can't they just do what so many posters here have demanded the NHL do to cater to the olympics and WHC?

I'm not responsible for other people demanding the NHL to shorten their season. I think the NHL has absolutely no responsibility to change their schedule to cater to the World Championships. Just like I think that the European soccer leagues have no responsibility to change their schedule to cater for the Olympics. We don't need a best-on-best Olympic soccer tournament, cause we already get best-on-best soccer once every two years. And it's great. And we don't need a best-on-best World Championship in hockey, if we get best-on-best Olympic hockey every four years and a best-on-best World Cup every four years.

If we'd have best-on-best international hockey as well every two years, I wouldn't have much of a problem with the NHL organizing an "international event" where a team of left-handed people plays against a team of people under six feet, and a team of players born in January plays against against a team of players born in May.

But right now the last time we saw international best-on-best hockey was two and a half years ago, and we don't know if we'll ever see it again. This being the case, I'm really annoyed by the fact that the NHL ruined this year's World Cup by the gimmicks. I would be equally annoyed, if UEFA and FIFA ruined their prestigious tournaments in a similar fashion.

 

[jj cale]

I'm not responsible for other people demanding the NHL to shorten their season. I think the NHL has absolutely no responsibility to change their schedule to cater to the World Championships. Just like I think that the European soccer leagues have no responsibility to change their schedule to cater for the Olympics. We don't need a best-on-best Olympic soccer tournament, cause we already get best-on-best soccer once every two years. And it's great.

If we'd have best-on-best international hockey as well every two years, I wouldn't have much of a problem with the NHL organizing an "international event" where a team of left-handed people plays against a team of people under six feet, and a team of players born in January plays against against a team of players born in May.

But right now the last time we saw international best-on-best hockey was two and a half years ago, and we don't know if we'll ever see it again. This being the case, I'm really annoyed by the fact that the NHL ruined this year's World Cup by the gimmicks. I would be equally annoyed, if UEFA and FIFA ruined their prestigious tournaments in a similar fashion.

I'm glad you feel this way.

So many of your brethren don't see it this way.

It's been right here in this very thread, NHL bend over........shorten seasons, change schedules, do whatever it takes to make international hockey the way THEY want it to happen.

No compromise, just demands.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

I'm trying to think what the players are actually playing for. Forget the standard national pride aspect because the same can be said of the near useless World Championship tournament. The NHL is the Stanley Cup. The Olympics is a medal. The Summit Series and Canada Cups were different animals.

This...what are the players aspiring to win here? Seriously. There's no mystique behind the tournament (yet) and the trophy is a joke to look at. Lemieux skating around with that thing in '04 was one of the more awkward moments you'll see in hockey history.

 

[jj cale]

I'm trying to think what the players are actually playing for. Forget the standard national pride aspect because the same can be said of the near useless World Championship tournament. The NHL is the Stanley Cup. The Olympics is a medal. The Summit Series and Canada Cups were different animals.

This...what are the players aspiring to win here? Seriously. There's no mystique behind the tournament (yet) and the trophy is a joke to look at. Lemieux skating around with that thing in '04 was one of the more awkward moments you'll see in hockey history.

I agree the Canada Cups were a different animal from this tournament because of the gimmick teams but the 2004 world cup was not.


It was all national teams. That comes back to what was being discussed yesterday, why has the passion for this tournament decreased in Canada?

NHL participation at the olympics and subpar promotion were two theories floated around.

 

[Lepardi]

Are those domestic leagues so horribly greedy that they cannot manage to make that monetary sacrifice for the good of the international game?

Those domestic leagues have multiple breaks every season for international games. The Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga and Serie A are on break right now, cause national teams are playing World Cup qualifiers. They'll have another break in October, one in November and one in March. All for the sake of national teams to be able to play qualifiers for World Cup 2018. This is what the qualifying schedule looks like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_–_UEFA_Group_A

The players on those teams also take part in a major international best-on-best tournament every other June and July.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

I agree the Canada Cups were a different animal from this tournament because of the gimmick teams but the 2004 world cup was not.


It was all national teams. That comes back to what was being discussed yesterday, why has the passion for this tournament decreased in Canada?

NHL participation at the olympics and subpar promotion were two theories floated around.

I'd say those are two primary reasons, along with the spacing between the tournaments. If you pick and choose to do these tournaments at random times as opposed to the traditional 4-year gap of these events, there is no continuity for fans to get excited about.

 

[Lepardi]

But soccer leagues, well, that is a different story.

You'll give them all the leeway they desire.

I can assure you that if some soccer league tries to include teams like "Team South America U24" and "Team European Leftovers" in the World Cup of soccer, I won't be giving them any more leeway than I'm giving the NHL right now. I like to watch the best players in the world represent their country in international best-on-best events. Both in soccer and in hockey. In soccer I saw it this summer and I'll see it again in June 2018, in hockey I don't know if I'll ever see it again.

If the powers that be in soccer wanted to be in the olympics they could make it happen, but they don't, and you do not have a problem with that.

Then you shouldn't have a problem with the NHL looking after it's own interests first either.

I would have a major problem if I couldn't watch international best-on-best soccer tournaments regularly. But I can. I was in France just two months ago to see such an event, and the atmosphere was amazing. That's why I have no problem with the international competition calendar in soccer. I do have a problem with the fact that I can't watch international best-on-best hockey this September because of Bettman & co's idiocy.

 

[jj cale]

Those domestic leagues have multiple breaks every season for international games. The Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga and Serie A are on break right now, cause national teams are playing World Cup qualifiers. They'll have another break in October, one in November and one in March. All for the sake of national teams to be able to play qualifiers for World Cup 2018. This is what the qualifying schedule looks like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_–_UEFA_Group_A

The players on those teams also take part in a major international best-on-best tournament every other June and July.

All duly noted.

So the yearly major international tournaments can be done away with and other tournaments such as the champions league in an olympic year no?

Then we would have what we should have for soccer in the olympics, a best on best.

This would be possible would it not? I am sure people will lose money but what the hell.............it's the olympics after all right?

It deserves the best, just like Hockey.

I find it hard to believe things can't be made to work out in order to insure a best on best olympics in soccer.

But if not.........I guess we can cut the NHL a little slack.

 

[snipes]

Can we move on from Soccer?

They aren't comparable. There are approximately 4 or 5 leagues that are the most elite and roughly equal as the "best" leagues.

With hockey it is one, the NHL. Period.

 

[jj cale]

I can assure you that if some soccer league tries to include teams like "Team South America U24" and "Team European Leftovers" in the World Cup of soccer, I won't be giving them any more leeway than I'm giving the NHL right now. I like to watch the best players in the world represent their country in international best-on-best events. Both in soccer and in hockey. In soccer I saw it this summer, in hockey I don't know if I'll ever see it again.

Point taken and I am sure they would chafe at any attempt of a gimmick team at the world cup.

But just because they already have a proper world cup does not mean they should not have a best on best at the olympics.

If there is no demand for that in soccer then we don't have to demand it for hockey, we should just get to work on having a proper world cup, on that I think we could be in agreement.

My point is on this silliness some have for the sanctity of a best on best olympics in hockey when they don't even demand it for the biggest sport on the globe by far. It gets even more silly when they hold this view and use the gimmick teams as proof of their view but wishy wash gimmickry soccer at the olympics.

It just reeks of ingrained anti NHL bias.

You either want the best for all sports in the major international competitions or you are just picking and choosing and on this matter many seem to be picking and choosing on the basis of some dislike for a certain hockey organization.