WCH - Impressions of the Tournament

[Gary Nylund]

I think you may be creating a bit of a strawman here by comparing the Olympic hockey tournament with the summer and winter Olympic events at large (you're right in that they are largely a corrupt mess). At least, that has been your chain of thought these last few pages. While the post-1998 Olympic hockey tournaments have been best-on-best tournaments which resulted in a lot of amazing hockey, there are still faults with the structure - namely, using shootouts to decide the playoff/medal games, and the single-game final. In my opinion, the ideal that the NHL should strive for with these World Cups, should they continue, is the 1996 version of the World Cup.

My concern with this upcoming World Cup is that it sets a precedent for potential future stupidity such as NA vs. Europe, playing for your country of ancestry (as discussed yesterday), etc. instead of simply implementing a proper ****ing World Cup. It's difficult to imagine how the NHL could take something so simple and screw it up so badly. Secondly, and most importantly, I'm concerned about the possibility of the NHL doubling-down on this World Cup nonsense and pulling out of the Olympics.

I think we're agreed on most things. I may be enjoying taking a few jabs at the Olympic Games because I'm starting to get sick of all the NHL bashing that's been going on. Some guy in another thread has been telling me that the refereeing is corrupt in the World Cup because the NHL wants a NA team to win. Gimme a break FFS, the more I hear crap like that the more I feel like telling the Europeans to stuff it. Screw the Olympics let's just have a WC (without gimmick teams of course) and leave the WHC to the Euros. Like I've said many times, this WC format is a mistake, I'm willing to forgive the NHL as long as they get it right next time.

 

[Seanaconda]

While the IOC/IIHF/Broadcasters/Sponsors and NHLPA should all be digging in their pockets to come up with the estimated 10 million $$$ price tag associated with insurance and logistics getting NHL players to and from Olympics, the question of insurance for summer orientation camp is and should be the sole responsibility of the individual national federations.


and yes, the NHLPA, not the NHL, has to come up with part of its share towards that 10 million $$$ price tag, as it is primarily the players who want Olympics. The only thing asked of the NHL is a 3 week shut down once every 4 years to accommodate this...and for that they should get some marketing rights.

USA doesn't pay its Olympic athletes so I doubt they cough up money. I'm not sure if Canada does? Russia would.
But if someone other than the nhl pays for that I'm sure they will go and have 2 offset 4 year gapped tournaments that are different. Olympics and the world cup.

If they wanted to cut the Olympics out they would of made the world cup the same format this way it gives us 2 different tournaments to get excited about while being different enough to not make the other irrelevant

 

[Lepardi]

This seems to a perfectly valid point. It should be interesting to see where the goal posts get shifted to this time.

There is no need nor time for a best-on-best Olympic soccer tournament cause we've got the Euros in 2016 and the World Cup in 2018. They're both best-on-best. So much about the "validity" of that point.

 

[Seanaconda]

Good luck trying to find people going on about how special the Olympic football tournament is. It's not a major tournament cause the world's best don't have time to take part. They were in the EURO2016 and Copa America in June and July, and they need some rest after that.

World Cup and the continental championships are the major tournaments in football. Come back with your raging when the World Cup of soccer starts to include teams like" Team South America U24" and "Team European Leftovers" for more competitiveness. Never gonna happen, cause it's so utterly moronic.

Not gonna happen because soccer/football has way more nations that are competitive. The only continent team they might make is team north America so we have a chance to lose slightly higher up the standings. The entire team would probably be whatever Mexicos team is tho.

If hockey had more competitive teams I would be more against having the 2 extra teams but after the top 4. And then czech and Finland there really isn't much competition. Expecially with Slovakia and the Czech Republic falling back

Big difference in making extra teams for a sport you only expect 4 nations to win vs a sport that what 20 countries could all win on a given year depending on how everything lines up

 

[1Gold Standard]

USA doesn't pay its Olympic athletes so I doubt they cough up money. I'm not sure if Canada does? Russia would.
But if someone other than the nhl pays for that I'm sure they will go and have 2 offset 4 year gapped tournaments that are different. Olympics and the world cup.

If they wanted to cut the Olympics out they would of made the world cup the same format this way it gives us 2 different tournaments to get excited about while being different enough to not make the other irrelevant

The NHL has already said, they want to cut out the Olympics. Gary Bettman and 90% of the owners have little appetite for the Olympics as it is, and no appetite for it if it means the NHL has to pay out of pocket to get their players insured and to and from Olympics. Nor should they be. I illustrated what the NHL's responsibility is and what the NHL should receive in return from the IOC in exchange for shutting down for 3 weeks and making their players available.

what the NHL has in mind is gimmicky tournaments and no Olympics. It's really that simple. And if this WCoH is successful that's just what we'll get.

 

[Seanaconda]

[/B]

The NHL has already said, they want to cut out the Olympics. Gary Bettman and 90% of the owners have little appetite for the Olympics as it is, and no appetite for it if it means the NHL has to pay out of pocket to get their players insured and to and from Olympics. Nor should they be. I illustrated what the NHL's responsibility is and what the NHL should receive in return from the IOC in exchange for shutting down for 3 weeks and making their players available.

If they cut out the Olympics chances are they just change the world cup to the exact same format so no loss. The only reason it would be different this year would be that they weren't sure if they would go back to the Olympics or not. They will probably/hopefully keep the 3 game final tho.

And if I was the nhl why would you pay to be the biggest draw for the olympics. Don't they make like a billion dollars every time they are on? Can easily pay the 10 million if that's all it is to let nhl player's go.

 

[Canuckistani]

Not gonna happen because soccer/football has way more nations that are competitive.

Not really. Only a handful of teams out of 32 have a realistic chance of winning the FIFA World Cup. The rest are there to compete and maybe pull off an upset or two. Yet no one wants a Team Asia, Team Africa or Team rest-of-Europe to correct this "problem."

And so what if hockey has few competitive teams? Upsets are part of what makes sport so compelling.

Using Bettman logic, USA in 1980 and Belarus in 2002 should both have been merged with other teams since they had no chance at all to beat the Soviets or Sweden.

 

[Seanaconda]

Not really. Only a handful of teams out of 32 have a realistic chance of winning the FIFA World Cup. The rest are there to compete and maybe pull off an upset or two. Yet no one wants a Team Asia, Team Africa or Team rest-of-Europe to correct this "problem."

And so what if hockey has few competitive teams? Upsets are part of what makes sport so compelling.

Using Bettman logic, USA in 1980 and Belarus in 2002 should both have been merged with other teams since they had no chance at all to beat the Soviets or Sweden.

USA 1980 was nice because the nhl didn't send players yet so that was the asterisk Olympics no ? Where the Olympics open to the nhl by 2002 ?

But anyways I'm all for adding more world cup teams. Bring it up to 10 or 15 I just like the 2 gimmick leftover cast-off teams to be in it as well. No point in having it the same as the Olympics. Isn't that why they got rid of the world cup in the first place because it was replaced by the Olympics

Finland and czech Republic are the 2 teams fighting for upsets atm with the 2 gimmick teams. Any other nations after that tend to be teams for stat padding

 

[Gary Nylund]

[/B]

The NHL has already said, they want to cut out the Olympics. Gary Bettman and 90% of the owners have little appetite for the Olympics as it is, and no appetite for it if it means the NHL has to pay out of pocket to get their players insured and to and from Olympics. Nor should they be. I illustrated what the NHL's responsibility is and what the NHL should receive in return from the IOC in exchange for shutting down for 3 weeks and making their players available.

what the NHL has in mind is gimmicky tournaments and no Olympics. It's really that simple. And if this WCoH is successful that's just what we'll get.

You keep stating these things as if you know for sure what the NHL is planning (when probably they're not even sure themselves yet). When you do that it's impossible to take you seriously.

Not really. Only a handful of teams out of 32 have a realistic chance of winning the FIFA World Cup. The rest are there to compete and maybe pull off an upset or two. Yet no one wants a Team Asia, Team Africa or Team rest-of-Europe to correct this "problem."

And so what if hockey has few competitive teams? Upsets are part of what makes sport so compelling.

Using Bettman logic, USA in 1980 and Belarus in 2002 should both have been merged with other teams since they had no chance at all to beat the Soviets or Sweden.

Maybe it's just me but I find these upsets less compelling than some others. A goalie gets hot and huge upsets can happen but so what? The Miracle on Ice had a cool result in that there was a huge uptick in interest in hockey in the US but from strictly a hockey perspective there wasn't all that much to get excited about and only goes to illustrate how much of a crap shoot the Olympics can be (one reason to prefer the WC, at least there's a 3 game final).

Belarus too, hey they won on a fluke goal, fantastic. That just deprived the world of seeing a much anticipated Canada-Sweden semifinal. Or did you really enjoy watching Canada clobber Belarus instead? I sure didn't and even though playing Belarus was almost like a free pass to the final I still wasn't happy about it as I really wanted revenge on the Swedes (they beat us badly in the peliminary game and I knew some people who were happily chirping about it).

 

[Lepardi]

Big difference in making extra teams for a sport you only expect 4 nations to win vs a sport that what 20 countries could all win on a given year depending on how everything lines up

So which 20 countries have a better chance of winning the World Cup of soccer than Finland has in the World Cup of hockey?

 

[Seanaconda]

So which 20 countries have a better chance of winning the World Cup of soccer than Finland has in the World Cup of hockey?

I'm not sure maybe that was hyperbole. But I'm assuming the competition is much greater considering every country plays football. While the top 4 of hockey win pretty much every tournament in hockey. Would include czech or Slovakia a couple years ago but right now hockey is pretty well dominated by 4 teams

.fifa has France Brazil and England out of the top 5 so obviously the competition is far greater than it is for hockey. 20th is Hungary and turkey *well tied for 19th.

I honestly don't watch soccer/football as much as hockey but I don't think it's as dominated in the top end as hockey is am I wrong?

 

[Jussi]

You're still missing the point, why don't you admit it?

I can do this all day ...

Your comparison doesn't make sense, why can't you admit it?

We Finns can argue about semantics forever so...

 

[snipes]

^^ It's true Gary .

I'm curious, what is the buzz or discussion is like in Finland and Sweden outside of ticket prices? That series they are putting on in Finland right now is really good. I enjoyed the first episode, hopefully someone translates the 2nd episode and puts it up on YouTube.

The marketing in Canada has been terrible. I think that's more because Sportsnet sucks, if TSN was the network showing the games there would be some serious hype. Sportsnet is just inept.

 

[BMann]

I feel if the NHL worked with the Euro leagues. Meaning those leagues shut down and all players were able to participate. A qualifying round for lower seeded nations. This tournament would have gotten more respect from hockey fans from around the world.

Why should the Euro leagues shut down for this gimmick ? In every other sport national federations follow the rules laid down by the governing body not the other way around. The NHL is a law unto itself.

 

[JackSlater]

^^ It's true Gary .

I'm curious, what is the buzz or discussion is like in Finland and Sweden outside of ticket prices? That series they are putting on in Finland right now is really good. I enjoyed the first episode, hopefully someone translates the 2nd episode and puts it up on YouTube.

The marketing in Canada has been terrible. I think that's more because Sportsnet sucks, if TSN was the network showing the games there would be some serious hype. Sportsnet is just inept.

As much as I would like to put the lack of hype down to the ridiculous nature of the tournament... yeah, Sportsnet is dropping the ball. Similar to the NHL coverage this past year, so it's not that shocking. I doubt that this tournament would be getting much more hype even if it was an actual best on best due to Sportsnet's general ineptitude.

 

[snipes]

As much as I would like to put the lack of hype down to the ridiculous nature of the tournament... yeah, Sportsnet is dropping the ball. Similar to the NHL coverage this past year, so it's not that shocking. I doubt that this tournament would be getting much more hype even if it was an actual best on best due to Sportsnet's general ineptitude.

Sportsnet is absolutely awful. Nay, they are beyond awful, and it showed in the ratings. Canadians did not appreciate Ron MacLean getting the boot and the NHL meddling in our Hockey Night in Canada Traditions.

TSN and the 2016 World Hockey Championship blew away Stanley Cup ratings this year. It wasn't just because of lack of Canadian NHL teams, Canadians are smart hockey fans. Sportsnet coverage is a joke.

Sportsnet is beyond inept. Agreed, even if this was true best-on-best we would still see a lack of hype due to Sportsnet being such a joke.

 

[BMann]

I'm not sure maybe that was hyperbole. But I'm assuming the competition is much greater considering every country plays football. While the top 4 of hockey win pretty much every tournament in hockey. Would include czech or Slovakia a couple years ago but right now hockey is pretty well dominated by 4 teams

.fifa has France Brazil and England out of the top 5 so obviously the competition is far greater than it is for hockey. 20th is Hungary and turkey *well tied for 19th.

I honestly don't watch soccer/football as much as hockey but I don't think it's as dominated in the top end as hockey is am I wrong?

Association football is a simple sport to play and consequently is the biggest global sport in terms of number of countries participating and competitive depth. At the premier tournament however the same usual names still appear.

Rugby union is the second global sport. Ice hockey comes a long way down the list but is growing slowly. The cost of facilities, climate, equipment makes it much harder to develop. However the IIHF unfortunately do not have control over the direction of the sport. It's the only sport I can think of that there is this issue.

 

[snipes]

Why should the Euro leagues shut down for this gimmick ? In every other sport national federations follow the rules laid down by the governing body not the other way around. The NHL is a law unto itself.

The NHL and North American hockey govern ourselves with our own rules, rink size, and style of game. We always have, and we always will.

 

[Jablkon]

I'm not really "justifying" it, I've said from the start that the gimmick teams are a bad idea. I just think some of the negative reactions are too "over the top". Not watching at all is something I would not consider as it will still be incredibly interesting and far from meaningless in my humble opinion. Despite my objections to the U23 team they will be very interesting to watch and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they did much better than some expect. How anyone can not want to watch this team play is beyond me. Also, talking about how the gimmick teams are here to stay as if it's a fact is untrue and annoying. Etc.



In my case it's just a reaction to the tone set by some posters here - the WC is just a "cash grab", the WC is meaningless, it's not "international", it's not best-on-best, the NHL is evil (OK I overstated that one but still), the NHL is corrupt and so on whereas the Olympic Games on the other hand are some sort of ideal to strive for.

In my opinion, the Olympic Games are a corrupt mess and it's just kind of fun to point out that some of the things that people have been screaming about with respect to the WC also apply to the Olympics.

People in NA will watch them and HFB people too. Neverthless I would bet that ordinary european hockey fan does not know Calgary first line or any other. This tourney is like loose loose for euros. They dont know U23 and they dont give a ...... about team Europe It will be fun but seriously there are very few things to attract european fans....

 

[snipes]

People in NA will watch them and HFB people too. Neverthless I would bet that ordinary european hockey fan does not know Calgary first line or any other. This tourney is like loose loose for euros. They dont know U23 and they dont give a ...... about team Europe It will be fun but seriously there are very few things to attract european fans....

What about within the Big 6 and hockey mad European nations? I mean, I see why Belarus fans wouldn't notice or care, but what about the hockey powers?

 

[jj cale]

Good luck trying to find people going on about how special the Olympic football tournament is. It's not a major tournament cause the world's best don't have time to take part. They were in the EURO2016 and Copa America in June and July, and they need some rest after that.

World Cup and the continental championships are the major tournaments in football. Come back with your raging when the World Cup of soccer starts to include teams like" Team South America U24" and "Team European Leftovers" for more competitiveness. Never gonna happen, cause it's so utterly moronic.

No, but i've seen them often go on about how special the olympics are and why the nhl players need to be there.

And then you find out they have been leading the way with gimmick events and people still praise the olympics and trash the NHL?

Don't even bother with that line on me anymore.

 

[snipes]

No, but i've seen them often go on about how special the olympics are and why the nhl players need to be there.

And then you find out they have been leading the way with gimmick events and people still praise the olympics and trash the NHL?

Don't even bother with that line on me anymore.

It would be so much better if the IOC and IIHF would use some pragmatism and just cover the insurance and travel costs for the NHL players, like they have always done in the past.

Why are they being stubborn? The IOC and IIHF have covered these costs every Olympics since 1998.

It would allow the World Cup to get creative and try to play the best hockey possible, transcending national boundaries and traditional limitations. We would still have best-on-best for the purists every 4 years with the Olympics.

The entire hockey world would win in this situation.

 

[jj cale]

Olympic soccer is an U-23 + 3 event because soccer already has a world cup plus regional championships that are best-on-best.

In other words, no one cares that it's U-23 as Olympic soccer isn't a big deal.

Trying pulling that U-23 format at the FIFA world cup or the Euro/Copa events and see how well that goes down.

I don't care that the olympics have the soccer under 23 at it's games because soccer already has a world cup.

It's the olympics, having a strictly under 23 event, especially for such a globally important sport is the gimmick to end all gimmicks and something that is totally contrary to what the olympics is supposed to be about.

I just don't want anyone going on to me about the superiority of the olympics versus the world cup when the olympics have been knee deep in gimmicks before the nhl started to roll with them also.

 

[jj cale]

It would be so much better if the IOC and IIHF would use some pragmatism and just cover the insurance and travel costs for the NHL players, like they have always done in the past.

Why are they being stubborn? The IOC and IIHF have covered these costs every Olympics since 1998.

It would allow the World Cup to get creative and try to play the best hockey possible, transcending national boundaries and traditional limitations. We would still have best-on-best for the purists every 4 years with the Olympics.

The entire hockey world would win in this situation.

All these people going on and on about the special character of the olympics around here.

I feel like i've been lied to.

 

[snipes]

All these people going on and on about the special character of the olympics around here.

I feel like i've been lied to.

It is special because it has the attention of the entire world. I mean, 80% of Canadians watched our Olympic team at some point in 2010.

The Olympics are extremely important because the whole world cares. Therefore, it gives us the biggest stage to share our game with the world. The IOC and IIHF need to get over themselves, they make huge money from this.

The least they can do is continue to cover the insurance and travel costs for the NHL, like they always have done when the NHL started allowing their players to go.


Edit: Here is why it is so special. Look at the reaction at 0:34, that's Canada.