WCF: Edmonton Oilers vs. Colorado Avalanche ( Avs lead 3-0 )

[Tobias Kahun]

Actually, I did not know that and I apologize for misrepresenting that they played weaker competition. I missed that the schedule was updated so that skews my previous outlook on the qoc. However, I do stand by the rest of my statement.

But I do agree, the Avs have the best defense the Oilers have seen.

Maybe not "in-zone", but they transition the damn puck so well it almost looks like art work.

 

[Bank Shot]

Your rebuttal was that the 12 guys you faced could get icetime over a guy that plays 10min a game. I don’t understand why you’re grasping at this being a slam dunk retort.

You’re right there’s guys in those 2 D-cores better than JJ so my statement was off, but you “daring to refute” also reaffirms that you have faced some absolutely dogs*** d-cores. I’ll take the L on that statement if you want, but I’m shocked you keep trying to drive this home because it in turn helps my overall point.

Calling Calgary's d-core dog crap after they were top five in goals against during the season is pretty ridiculous.

Seems like you are just interested in making overly dramatic statements.

 

[JoeSakic13]

Makar would likely hit an entirely new level if he had someone defensively solid like Tanev to back him up.

I’d still have Toews over Tanev personally (even though Toews had some serious brain farts in round 2), but there’s no question that’s a scary pairing.

 

[Three On Zero]

I’d still have Toews over Tanev personally (even though Toews had some serious brain farts in round 2), but there’s no question that’s a scary pairing.

Makar / Toews
Byram / Tanev

switch Tanev and Toews on game needs.. then find a truly shut down 3rd pairing.

A younger Toews is definitely a safer bet

 

[McFlyingV]

And stats are great... with context. The Flames played weaker offensive teams through the regular season, teams that focused on defensive structure over offensive pace. Teams that sit back and allow the opposition to push while waiting for their opportunities. If you think, as a whole, that the Flames are a better team with regards to defensive play then that's on you. Look at the forwards, and name the players capable and willing to play a defensive structure. The Flames do not have the defensive forward depth of Colorado. Look at the Defense, the Flames do not have the defensive depth over Colorado. They are a solid group and deserve accolades on the season they had but if you believe they have as much defensive ability because stats say so then that's on you.

This isn't even taking into account the deadline acquisitions, all of whom were targeted for their defensive strengths. These players played a couple weeks for the Avs, not the whole regular season. And to be clear, they have made a BIG difference on this run.

I know your gonna say "here we go again with the weaker division excuse" but when you play weaker competition regularly over the duration of a season of course your going to look good on the stats sheet. Remember, Ryan Graves was an NHL leader in +/- previously. Stats need context.

Colorado finished first in the west and a major strength, all season long, was their defenses' ability to limit oppositions attack time, while being elite at transitional defense. Colorado are not world beaters defensively but they are a top defensive team and the biggest test the oilers will have faced in these playoffs.

Colorado played in a division (divisional games account for about 30% of a team's games played) that scored 6% more (excluding Colorado and Calgary) than the Pacific division. If you think that a 6% higher scoring division in 30% of a team's games account for the big discrepancy of defensive metrics between Calgary and Colorado then I'm not sure what to tell you. The defensive metrics aren't close between Calgary and Colorado in the regular season.

And for the record I do believe Calgary overachieved this season, but you can't dispute their actual performance on the ice was among the best defensively of all NHL teams this year.

 

[CycloneSweep]

If the fact that you faced teams with defenses good enough to crack our depth D is something you want to hang your hat on? All the power to you.

I mean, Calgary had the third lowest xGA all season, Colorado was 9th, LA is 12. So yes, we have faced a team that all season was stingier than Colorado. We haven’t faced a team that has the on paper better defenders individually, but we have faced a defence core that had better results defensively.

I wouldn’t sleep on EJ and Manson, who have really stepped it up recently after sub-par regular seasons.

Ceci is one of the most underrated defenceman left in the playoffs Imo. From what I’ve seen, he’s been Edmonton’s best defenceman in the postseason.

It’s been off and on between him and Kulak honestly at least for consistency

 

[CycloneSweep]

And stats are great... with context. The Flames played weaker offensive teams through the regular season, teams that focused on defensive structure over offensive pace. Teams that sit back and allow the opposition to push while waiting for their opportunities. If you think, as a whole, that the Flames are a better team with regards to defensive play then that's on you. Look at the forwards, and name the players capable and willing to play a defensive structure. The Flames do not have the defensive forward depth of Colorado. Look at the Defense, the Flames do not have the defensive depth over Colorado. They are a solid group and deserve accolades on the season they had but if you believe they have as much defensive ability because stats say so then that's on you.

This isn't even taking into account the deadline acquisitions, all of whom were targeted for their defensive strengths. These players played a couple weeks for the Avs, not the whole regular season. And to be clear, they have made a BIG difference on this run.

I know your gonna say "here we go again with the weaker division excuse" but when you play weaker competition regularly over the duration of a season of course your going to look good on the stats sheet. Remember, Ryan Graves was an NHL leader in +/- previously. Stats need context.

Colorado finished first in the west and a major strength, all season long, was their defenses' ability to limit oppositions attack time, while being elite at transitional defense. Colorado are not world beaters defensively but they are a top defensive team and the biggest test the oilers will have faced in these playoffs.

I mean, based on every metric, Colorado was a good defensive team, top 10 for sure, but not top 5. The reason they have excelled is that they are a good to great defensive team while also being great offensively and having solid special teams. They arguably weren’t the best at any one thing but were one of the best combinations of all things.

 

[McFlyingV]

But I do agree, the Avs have the best defense the Oilers have seen.

Maybe not "in-zone", but they transition the damn puck so well it almost looks like art work.

This post I can agree with on Colorado's D. I would also argue though that this is also the fastest offence and forecheck the Avs have seen these playoffs. Both teams are about to see something they haven't seen yet.

 

[Seanaconda]

So who was a better bet for the money?

Anyone that was on the oilers 5 cups plus the Rangers oilers reunion cup

 

[JoeSakic13]

This post I can agree with on Colorado's D. I would also argue though that this is also the fastest offence and forecheck the Avs have seen these playoffs. Both teams are about to see something they haven't seen yet.

Agree and disagree. I’d argue that this is the handily the best offense Colorado has faced so far, but St. Louis’ forecheck can be relentless and scarier than Edmonton’s.

 

[Mikeshane]

Kuemper hasn't been good but I don't think he's been really that bad either. St Louis scored the 4th most goals in the regular season(1 less than the Avs) so it's reasonable that they are gonna score some goals. If your expectations of Kuemper are to be solid then he pretty much has been that in the playoffs so far.

 

[McFlyingV]

Agree and disagree. I’d argue that this is the handily the best offense Colorado has faced so far, but St. Louis’ forecheck can be relentless and scarier than Edmonton’s.

Physically, sure I'd agree. In terms of speed and getting sticks in lanes I think the Oilers group is one of the best in that regard.

Should be a fun battle either way. The Oilers cycle game is where I think the Oilers best chance to win this series lies. Thats the one aspect Colorado struggles with the most.

 

[Avsfan1921]

Colorado played in a division (divisional games account for about 30% of a team's games played) that scored 6% more (excluding Colorado and Calgary) than the Pacific division. If you think that a 6% higher scoring division in 30% of a team's games account for the big discrepancy of defensive metrics between Calgary and Colorado then I'm not sure what to tell you. The defensive metrics aren't close between Calgary and Colorado in the regular season.

And if you look at those two rosters and come to the conclusion that Calgary has more ability to shut it down than the Avs then I’m not sure what to tell you. Look at the personnel. Just because the Avs play a more high octane style of play does not mean they can’t shut it down.

I won’t try and convince you further as we are both set on our views and only time will tell if the Avs can play a better defensive style against the Oiler compared to the flames. But I will end it with saying that stat watching is not the best indicator when it comes to the metrics you like to use. Just because teams tend to play offensively doesn’t mean they lack the ability to buckle down defensively. The Avs are structured to play either style, yet typically push the pace. If they need to adjust and play harder defensively they will. Look at their roster and compare it to Calgarys and tell me that Calgary has more ability to shut teams down. Zadorov was their top d man down the stretch.

 

[JoeSakic13]

Physically, sure I'd agree. In terms of speed and getting sticks in lanes I think the Oilers group is one of the best in that regard.

Should be a fun battle either way. The Oilers cycle game is where I think the Oilers best chance to win this series lies. Thats the one aspect Colorado struggles with the most.

Colorados cycle game is fantastic!…..they just don’t stop cycling……

 

[Avsfan1921]

I mean, based on every metric, Colorado was a good defensive team, top 10 for sure, but not top 5. The reason they have excelled is that they are a good to great defensive team while also being great offensively and having solid special teams. They arguably weren’t the best at any one thing but were one of the best combinations of all things.

I 100% agree that they are not a top defensive team. They are however, deeper than Calgary, but play at a higher pace which creates more high danger opportunities for both them and their opposition. If they decide that they need to change that style to a more defensive structure, they will fare better than the flames. They were overrated all season and last series showed it. That is what my argument is.

They are elite at transition and puck retrieval, nothing more. They are adequate at zone defence, nothing more.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Kuemper hasn't been good but I don't think he's been really that bad either. St Louis scored the 4th most goals in the regular season(1 less than the Avs) so it's reasonable that they are gonna score some goals. If your expectations of Kuemper are to be solid then he pretty much has been that in the playoffs so far.

Ya. Blues are definitely a tough team for goalies to play against.

 

[McFlyingV]

And if you look at those two rosters and come to the conclusion that Calgary has more ability to shut it down than the Avs then I’m not sure what to tell you. Look at the personnel. Just because the Avs play a more high octane style of play does not mean they can’t shut it down.

I won’t try and convince you further as we are both set on our views and only time will tell if the Avs can play a better defensive style against the Oiler compared to the flames. But I will end it with saying that stat watching is not the best indicator when it comes to the metrics you like to use. Just because teams tend to play offensively doesn’t mean they lack the ability to buckle down defensively. The Avs are structured to play either style, yet typically push the pace. If they need to adjust and play harder defensively they will. Look at their roster and compare it to Calgarys and tell me that Calgary has more ability to shut teams down. Zadorov was their top d man down the stretch.

I don't think Calgary has a better D group than Colorado, I've just simply disputed these ridiculous claims that Edmonton played weak defensive teams in Calgary and LA. I'm well aware of Colorado's Defensive strengths and weaknesses, I watch them a ton (I have said on numerous occasions on this board that Cale Makar was going to be a top 3D in this league before he ever even played on your team).

Edmonton will see far less offensive zone time against Colorado's D than they saw against LA or Calgary, but Colorado's D is not elite at all when the opposition gets possession in their end.

Colorados cycle game is fantastic!…..they just don’t stop cycling……

I know that. Both team's D struggle with the cycle game. Colorado's is very good at limiting teams from getting set up on the cycle though because of their quick puck possession game.

 

[PuckG]

ya'll were the underdog in one series .. haha LA should have been done in 5 maybe 6 and im a kings fan

What's your point...mine still stands.

 

[Avsfan1921]

I don't think Calgary has a better D group than Colorado, I've just simply disputed these ridiculous claims that Edmonton played weak defensive teams in Calgary and LA. I'm well aware of Colorado's Defensive strengths and weaknesses, I watch them a ton (I have said on numerous occasions on this board that Cale Makar was going to be a top 3D in this league before he ever even played on your team).

Edmonton will see far less offensive zone time against Colorado's D than they saw against LA or Calgary, but Colorado's D is not elite at all when the opposition gets possession in their end.

I believe we are arguing the same points then. I genuinely do not believe that Colorado’s defence is some juggernaut and I genuinely do not believe that Calgarys defence is bad.

All I was trying to get across to those that thought Calgary was a tougher defensive match than the Avs is that the whole reason our team has had the success that they have is because of the defensive cores ability to limit time in their end with great puck retrieval and zone exits, which is a boon defensively as they don’t spend much time in their end typically.

Ftr, I have never once stated that the oilers were taking advantage of weak teams or defences. They deserve to be where they are at and I have real reservations on the outcome of this series.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Colorados cycle game is fantastic!…..they just don’t stop cycling……

That's Foegele and McLeod in a nutshell. Cycle for a full minute without a shot until they turn it over

 

[tkb81]

What's your point...mine still stands.

oh yah i forgot how what it was like talking to a oilers fan .. haha .. i'll leave it here because most of you are never wrong and cant see anyone elses point

 

[Gregsky99]

oh yah i forgot how what it was like talking to a oilers fan .. haha .. i'll leave it here because most of you are never wrong and cant see anyone elses point

Well in that case I'm gonna keep arguing anyway so you so you can't stop

 

[Mr Kot]

Now now lets save some shittalking for the game. This thread is almost reaching 1000 posts and the first game hasnt started

 

[Spawn]

This is revisionist history. The Flames as a team had better defensive metrics this year than Colorado. To claim their regular season results were due to Markstrom is objectively wrong.

Yep.

It’s not just the Flames either. The Flames were 1st and Kings 3rd in the west in terms of goals against. Avalanche allowed 2 fewer goals than the Kings in the regular season

The Avalanche are a great team. But the notion that they can defend while the Flames and Kings couldn’t is ridiculous.

 

[EdAVSfan]

I’m not really sure where the notion that the Avs are a good defensive team came from. Having good defensive metrics doesn’t necessarily mean they are good defensively.

As I mentioned before, the Avs are not some stalwart in the d zone. They play a fairly simple system that allows them to reduce the number of high danger chances. However, if you are to cycle, or get extended time in their zone, they absolutely will give up chances.

And there lies the crux of their “defense”. What makes the Avs good defensively, is that the other team mostly gets one and done type offense, and not extended shifts in the Avs zone. The Avs are excellent at getting the puck out of zone once they get a touch on it. They are also not at all a team that flips pucks out of their zone consistently. They will skate it out. The other part of what makes it a one and done offense against them is that they hold the puck. They keep the puck in the offensive zone and fatigue the other team. Even if the other team gets the puck, they simply need to line change, and the process repeats. Should the Avs have turnovers, their fast forwards also create lots of back pressure and their D all skate well, so they simply don’t give up many odd man chances.

Are LA and Calgary better defensive teams? Who the F knows. Every team defends differently. Every team defends better against certain styles of play. The Avs struggle against fast heavy forechecks. But they can excel against forechecking teams also if the forward aren’t quick enough, because they can turn it up ice in a flash. If your forecheck, it needs to be timed extremely well or the Avs D will burn you quick up ice.

Fascinating series. Will be interesting to see who’s gameplay works best.

But personally, neither of these teams are great defensively. They make their team defense in their own way.