Was 08-09 Crosby closer to 13-14 Crosby than we think?

[Matsun]

13-14 is considered one of Crosbys best regular seasons and 08-09 is seen as one of his worst. I got the idea to compare these regular seasons since Crosby and Getzlaf scored around the same amount of points both seasons. First the top 5 scorers in 09:

2008-09	GP	P
Malkin	82	113
Ovechkin	81	110
Crosby	77	103
Datsuyk	82	97
Parise	82	94

Now lets see 2014:

2013-14	GP	P
Crosby	80	104
Getzlaf	77	87
Giroux	82	86
Seguin	80	84
Perry	81	82

Obviously 13-14 looks more impressive for Crosby, but there are some things that stand out. First off 08-09 Malkin and Ovechkin are clearly better than any player 13-14 Crosby competed against, secondly the top players in 08-09 played more games than Crosby while the top per game scorers in 13-14 missed alot of games. Here are the players with the best scoring pace in the 2 seasons.

2008-09	GP	Pace	P
Ovechkin	79	114	110
Malkin	82	113	113
Crosby	77	110	103
Semin (!)	62	104	79
Datsuyk	82	97	97

2013-14	GP	Pace	P
Crosby	80	107	104
Malkin	60	98	72
Tavares	59	95	68
Getzlaf	77	93	87
Hall	75	87	80

If we remove Ovechkin and Malkin from 08-09 I think these seasons start looking really close.

2008-09	GP	Pace	P
Crosby	77	110	103
Semin (!)	62	104	79
Datsuyk	82	97	97
Kovalchuk	79	94	91
Parise	82	94	94
Getzlaf	81	92	91

2013-14	GP	Pace	P
Crosby	80	107	104
Malkin	60	98	72
Tavares	59	95	68
Getzlaf	77	93	87
Hall	75	87	80
Seguin	80	86	84

Notice how healthy the top per game scorers in 08-09 were. Crosby goes from playing the 2nd fewest games among per game leaders to playing the most. 13-14 was also the season Stamkos had his first terrible injury, otherwise he would likely would've been hovering around 95 points too.

Crosby has gone from slightly being outscored by Malkin in 08-09 to clearly outscoring him in 13-14, but how much of that is because Crosby has improved and how much is because Malkin has regressed? If there was a peak Ovechkin in the league in 2013-14 would Crosby outscore him? Not sure. Clearly Crosby had a better season in 2013-14, but I wonder how much that was due to him being better than 08-09 and how much was due to outside factors.

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[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby was just fine in 08-09. Also have to remember he was just 21 years old.

 

[Video Nasty]

Yeah, I mean it’s a basic point most people don’t seem to get. Just because Crosby had weak, injured competition in 2013-2014, it doesn’t mean he was better as an individual. The fuss about 2013-2014 has always been overblown.

 

[Letsdothis]

The average 5vs5 scoring rate for forwards plummeted for whatever reason during 2011-17. Not only that, but powerplay opportunities were well down as well. I'll dig the data once I'm on my computer. It was a really tough time to put up gaudy point totals.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I remember all the talk after and during that season that ovechkin and malkin were having great seasons while crosby was having a poor one. Crosby was firmly second/third in scoring almost entire year n was on pace for 3 and 4 less points than the older russians.

 

[Offtheboard412]

I remember all the talk after and during that season that ovechkin and malkin were having great seasons while crosby was having a poor one. Crosby was firmly second/third in scoring almost entire year n was on pace for 3 and 4 less points than the older russians.

Yes I remember very well just how over the top the criticism for Crosby was that year. I often see people claim the top end competition in that period was weak, but a peak Ovechkin and Malkin plus a peak Datsyuk scoring 97 points while winning the Selke was pretty stiff competition and for the most part Crosby kept pace that year. I understand the hype for Crosby was skewing people's perception of that season, and I know this will probably open a can of worms, but that year gets disrespected way more than it should. Is it really any worse than say, McDavid in 18/19? I don't remember people talking about McDavid nearly as harshly as they did for Crosby in 08/09.

 

[Crosby2010]

I can remember Crosby in that year in the regular season. Let's remember some context. The Pens were coming off a Cup final appearance. They lost some veteran presences and they also had Gonchar missing most of the season due to injury. Their power play was not clicking and they really missed Gonchar. Whether it was having the best 2 out of 3 players in the NHL or not on their team they still missed Gonchar on the back end. So they struggled. They were 27-25-6 and then they went on a tear to finish the season at 18-3-4. At one point on January 3rd the Pens lost 6-1 to Florida. Crosby got into a fight with Brett McLean and you might remember that was the fight right off the faceoff where he dropped the gloves and just started whaling on McLean.

The funny thing is he was still scoring. His best month was probably November with 21 points in 11 games. It isn't as if he went off a cliff. And 103 points for the season was 3rd behind Malkin at 113 and Ovechkin at 110. I mean, you know you are pretty darn good when you finish 3rd in scoring with 103 points and people think you are having an off year. I guess there was this idea that Crosby was supposed to take off via Mario or Gretzky by now. He was never going to be as good as them, who is? But his 2009 regular season was still good. He was 6th in Hart voting. Datsyuk and Parise and even Mike Richards I can remember all having good years and there was this idea that perhaps there isn't a lot that separates him from other stars. Well, there was. He sure turned it on in the playoffs with 31 points and the Cup.

Maybe people thought he should be outscoring Malkin and Ovechkin, but come on, is it that bad that there is a season or two that these two guys outscore you? No shame in that. Plus he got the best of Ovechkin in the playoffs.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Maybe people thought he should be outscoring Malkin and Ovechkin, but come on, is it that bad that there is a season or two that these two guys outscore you? No shame in that. Plus he got the best of Ovechkin in the playoffs.

Ovechkin was obviously the best player in that series. The Pens beat the Capitals when Ovie wasn't on the ice.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin was obviously the best player in that series. The Pens beat the Capitals when Ovie wasn't on the ice.

You mean the series where crosby was the first star in game 7 and stripped the puck off OV and scored on a breakway in said game 7?

 

[Offtheboard412]

Ovechkin was obviously the best player in that series. The Pens beat the Capitals when Ovie wasn't on the ice.

There was nothing obvious about it. They were both lights out fantastic in that series.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You mean the series where crosby was the first star in game 7 and stripped the puck off OV and scored on a breakway in said game 7?

Ah you mean like this:

 

[Crosby2010]

Ovechkin was obviously the best player in that series. The Pens beat the Capitals when Ovie wasn't on the ice.

Ovechkin 14 points in 7 games, Crosby 13 points including 2 goals and an assist in Game 7. No one was "obviously" better in that series, at the end of the day Crosby got the last laugh though. I'd give him the edge here.

 

[DRW895]

Ah you mean like this:

crosby was very bad defensively entire series and that`s very fair ending, although his fan gonna blame only Letang for whole 2018 postseason

 

[MadLuke]

Ovechkin was obviously the best player in that series. The Pens beat the Capitals when Ovie wasn't on the ice.

And the capitals gained ground on the Pens only when Crosby was not on the ice, so what do we do with that information ? The Pens were 72.73% GF with Crosby on the Ice v 64% for when Ovechkin was on the ice (at least when their was a goaltender in net, I am using their stats when fleury-varlamov was on the ice vs was not)

Could still pick Ovechkin as the more dynamic player here, but I am not sure if it was obvious.

 

[daver]

Does Crosby really lose that many "career value" points for that season when he seemingly was able to turn on a switch once the playoffs started that year?

It seemed clear that his regular season production increased in relation to Malkin's performance; the less Malkin scored the more he scored. I think one has to consider the dynamics of having another superstar C on a team. It seemed like Forsberg and Sakic would alternate playing at superstar level.

There is no argument that Malkin had firmly placed his name alongside Crosby and Ovechkin after the 2009 season. I think both Malkin and Crosby could have had gaudier numbers if they were the sole superstar offensive talent like OV was but likely have less team success.

Ultimately all that matters is winning.

The Oilers reached the SCF with basically the same team this past season when they were able to separate McDavid and Draisaitl at ES unlike in 2022; when it was an all out offense strategy.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Does Crosby really lose that many "career value" points for that season when he seemingly was able to turn on a switch once the playoffs started that year?

It seemed clear that his regular season production increased in relation to Malkin's performance; the less Malkin scored the more he scored. I think one has to consider the dynamics of having another superstar C on a team. It seemed like Forsberg and Sakic would alternate playing at superstar level.

There is no argument that Malkin had firmly placed his name alongside Crosby and Ovechkin after the 2009 season. I think both Malkin and Crosby could have had gaudier numbers if they were the sole superstar offensive talent like OV was but likely have less team success.

Ultimately all that matters is winning.

The Oilers reached the SCF with basically the same team this past season when they were able to separate McDavid and Draisaitl at ES unlike in 2022; when it was an all out offense strategy.

Really wish crosby could have produced more in the finals. 31 in 24 looks great on paper but seeing be had 28 in 17 gp going in....i personally prefer his 2008 n 2017 runs as he prouduced in the finals