Confirmed with Link: Walman and a 2nd Round Pick traded to SJ

[HisNoodliness]

That's true, but he could have acquired 4 first and Kiiskinen for Gibson and gave Walman away with a 2nd and it's still a bad trade.

Let's say the organization did have issues with him and needed the cap space.

There's no way he had such little value that a 2nd to be attached. None. You see if you can get anything value for him, if you can't you try waiving him, if he clears waivers then you try to attach a pick, starting with a 7th and work your way down. I'm sure some team would have stopped you before you got to a 2nd.

Even if Yzerman needed the cap space immediately for something that *might* happen (and didn't by the way) he just handedly it terribly and it's poor asset management. We sign Stamkos or the Trouba or some other trade goes down, it makes more sense. But as is we just gave away a decent player and decent draft pick for literally nothing.

Now with that being said is Jake Walman the difference between making a deep playoff run or not? Probably not. Was that 2nd likely to turn into anything we'll regret? More than likely no (but could have been used in other trades). Is he better than at least 3 or 4 of our current defenseman? Most certainly.

It's always been more about the poor asset management than it is Jake Walman specifically.

For what it's worth, I think teams recognized that Yzerman was desperate to move Walman and his sitting down the stretch had not gone unnoticed, and so decided to demand at least a second to take him. That's the hardest time of year to move money, and we paid a similar rate to others dumping contracts at the time. I don't think that he accepted a second when making another call would have let him move Walman with only a 4th.

That should have prompted Yzerman to wait and keep Walman. Frankly we never should have been trying to get rid of him in the first place, and especially not if the league decided to take advantage of us. My biggest problem with the trade is who we decided to keep/sign instead of Walman. If you have 5 employees, 2 are good at their jobs and three are useless, you don't fire one of the good guys because they were late to a meeting. You can be picky about the little things when you have an organization of good employees. If you're being desperately kept afloat by a few individuals, you keep them around.

I wouldn't give a shit about Walman if I wasn't watching Chiarot, Petry, Holl and Gustafsson play beer league hockey every game.

 

[Shaman464]

Every single GM is going to make many mistakes along the way. Its the nature of the business. What you are looking for a is a GM that makes more good moves than bad moves. IMO Yzerman has achieved that.

Copp, Compher, Holl, the goalie revolving door, Fester, the former Red Wings boys club that has incompetent people in key positions (Draper et al), etc. Yzerman has way more than a few bad moves. Yzerman has been GM for over half a decade and this team is as bad as it was when he started and still years away from truly turning the corner. I love Yzerman and want him to succeed but he’s high on his own supply and needs a wake up call so he can shake up the organization and get some better people and players on the team.

 

[SirloinUB]

Copp, Compher, Holl, the goalie revolving door, Fester, the former Red Wings boys club that has incompetent people in key positions (Draper et al), etc. Yzerman has way more than a few bad moves. Yzerman has been GM for over half a decade and this team is as bad as it was when he started and still years away from truly turning the corner. I love Yzerman and want him to succeed but he’s high on his own supply and needs a wake up call so he can shake up the organization and get some better people and players on the team.

I believe every gm is going to make many mistakes, not a few.

1) all three names you mentioned are overpaid. No disagreements. Bad pro scouting and bad resource allocation. I could live with one of Copp/compher, both is redundant. Arguably it’s had a cascading impact when you think about paying to unload Walman & not having flexibility to take on trouba’s full cap.

2) I actually think Draper has been pretty good. Yzerman overhauled the training & rehab facilities and program. That’s quality management. Pro scouting is definitely sus. Overall I think he has done a good job here.

3) despite point 1 this team is quantifiably better in ever single way since yzerman took over.

• He has a stable of emerging stars in Ray, Ed, & Seider who haven’t even entered their primes.
• He has a prospect pool that is strong in both the quantity and quality with kasper, Danielson, ASP, Cossa, Augustine, Johansson, Buchelnikov, Wallinder, Mazur, Plant all trending well. All of his top picks are looking very good.
• He’s locked up key players on good value contracts: Raymond, seider, Larkin, debrincat.
• Even his mistakes are less bad than the negative value of Weiss, abdelkader, Nielsen, Ericsson, Dekeyser.
• Okay, maybe that last point was a low bar still it’s better than it was.

So if you’re going to say “this team is as bad as it was when he started” I call bullshit on every level.

Overall his work with seider, ray, Ed, kasper, Larkin, dbc and what appears to be coming with asp Danielson Cossa, etc drastically outweighs his mistakes with copp compher holl and Walman

 

[Snuggs]

My BS radar has always said something behind the scenes happened with Walman, something we'll never know. Player on player crime with girls, etc. Coaches didn't like him personally, something.

There's just no way(imo) Yzerman thought it was a good idea to trade for him, resign him, then trade him away with a pick. It's never made sense outside of something happened internally, likely, not even involving Yzerman at all he just had to choose sides.

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

My BS radar has always said something behind the scenes happened with Walman, something we'll never know. Player on player crime with girls, etc. Coaches didn't like him personally, something.

There's just no way(imo) Yzerman thought it was a good idea to trade for him, resign him, then trade him away with a pick. It's never made sense outside of something happened internally, likely, not even involving Yzerman at all he just had to choose sides.

Not worth speculating IMO what the locker room or personal issue was, but this is the most likely scenario. It was bad enough that a decision had to be made on his future in Detroit. Something more than being late to meetings or playing bad music at high decibels in the locker room. It would also explain why he ended up on one of the worst teams in the league with nothing to lose rather than a good team that could have improved its D depth for FC. Personal issues aren't a secret in the small world of the NHL.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

My BS radar has always said something behind the scenes happened with Walman, something we'll never know. Player on player crime with girls, etc. Coaches didn't like him personally, something.

There's just no way(imo) Yzerman thought it was a good idea to trade for him, resign him, then trade him away with a pick. It's never made sense outside of something happened internally, likely, not even involving Yzerman at all he just had to choose sides.

Exactly, if we needed the cap space that bad, I'm sure there was some team would have taken on Justin Holl for a free 2nd. This didn't have to be Walman.

 

[SirloinUB]

Exactly, if we needed the cap space that bad, I'm sure there was some team would have taken on Justin Holl for a free 2nd. This didn't have to be Walman.

It is completely plausible that the price to dump Holl would have been higher.

 

[Reddwit]

I dunno. I don’t get the vibe that Walman did something so egregious that he HAD to be jettisoned. Why would San Jose bring a cancer into their young locker room? This trade comes off like Walman did something that Yzerman *personally* had beef with and his ego got bruised which had him working the phones to get Walman off the squad ASAP.

In fact, this whole Yzerman era feels like it’s his ego running the show. Sure! Just take prospects and sign players who Play The Right Way, because you and Draper know what that looks like, and everything will fall into place! He tried to finagle his way into the playoffs by signing a bunch of guys with lunch pail reputations, thinking he knew better, and now the wheels are all the way off. Same with his handling of Lalonde. Whole thing reeks of “Things will pan out. I know better.”

Sorry for the rant, but Yzerman’s fingerprints are all over this organization at this point and it’s a mess. He’s gonna need a sharp redemption arc going forward. No one is impressed by him anymore.

 

[raymond23]

I gotta hide this thread

I think we've covered everything and its too sad to look at

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Every time this thread gets bumped I keep getting re-triggered.

 

[Euro Twins]

There is a worrying trend though. If a defenseman is good we get rid of them. If a defenseman is bad, we covet them. That's a concerning trend.

That would be true if walman was good. He was trending downward and had a bad second half of the year. I'm not going to defend sending a second round to dump him because I would have thought he had some value. Like even waivers. We could have gone over the cap, and figured it out later. But people are acting like we traded away a very good dman. He was ok at times outside of a couple clutch ot goals.

The hronek trade was good because we got asp out of it, and we were never going to pay hronek that contract. Not was he going to be on the top pair here to even be worth that. Yes walman hronek would be a much more palatable 2nd pairing. But asp will be something special for a lot longer than hronek, and we will find a good LD to pair with him.

 

[Euro Twins]

I believe every gm is going to make many mistakes, not a few.

1) all three names you mentioned are overpaid. No disagreements. Bad pro scouting and bad resource allocation. I could live with one of Copp/compher, both is redundant. Arguably it’s had a cascading impact when you think about paying to unload Walman & not having flexibility to take on trouba’s full cap.

2) I actually think Draper has been pretty good. Yzerman overhauled the training & rehab facilities and program. That’s quality management. Pro scouting is definitely sus. Overall I think he has done a good job here.

3) despite point 1 this team is quantifiably better in ever single way since yzerman took over.

• He has a stable of emerging stars in Ray, Ed, & Seider who haven’t even entered their primes.
• He has a prospect pool that is strong in both the quantity and quality with kasper, Danielson, ASP, Cossa, Augustine, Johansson, Buchelnikov, Wallinder, Mazur, Plant all trending well. All of his top picks are looking very good.
• He’s locked up key players on good value contracts: Raymond, seider, Larkin, debrincat.
• Even his mistakes are less bad than the negative value of Weiss, abdelkader, Nielsen, Ericsson, Dekeyser.
• Okay, maybe that last point was a low bar still it’s better than it was.

So if you’re going to say “this team is as bad as it was when he started” I call bullshit on every level.

Overall his work with seider, ray, Ed, kasper, Larkin, dbc and what appears to be coming with asp Danielson Cossa, etc drastically outweighs his mistakes with copp compher holl and Walman

I agree with most of what you said here.

I also have a sneaky suspicion this offseason/trade deadline is when you're going to see Yzerman make some actual bold moves to truly improve the roster. He tried and failed to land stammer and trouba. He knows he has to show results soon and with the young guns coming up in the pipeline the time is not to make a big splash via trade with a top 10 protected first. I have a feeling the pain is almost over as abysmal as this season has started.

Maybe I'm just naive like a Sabres or leafs fan. Or maybe it's Maybelline

 

[Retire91]

There is a worrying trend though. If a defenseman is good we get rid of them. If a defenseman is bad, we covet them. That's a concerning trend.

There is a difference between coveting bad defenseman, and running plugs during a rebuild.

 

[14ari13]

It means that up until Ed's emergence this year we had 1 dman that could anchor a line and support an offensive minded dman. Then on top of that last year Seider's usage and deployment shot up to be some of the hardest minutes in the NHL last year, and 90% of more offensive dman cannot play that hard of defensive minutes.

Hronek and Seider won't going to play together because they are both RD. Hronek worked with Maata until he went down, but Maata was never the same after. Hronek/Hughes works because QH is a LD and also they play more offensive zone deployment.

Ghost is a bit streaky so I can see his numbers slowing as the season goes on but looked his best when paired with Seider. Sadly he wasn't good enough defensively to take the deployment that Seider got (hardest in NHL), and when dropped down to a lower pair had no dman that could support him.

Walman did pretty well with Seider two seasons ago but when they upped Seiders defensive deployment/ hard minutes, Walman couldn't handle that level of a defensive assignment.

Offensive specialist need a better dman to be paired with and also need to get primarily offensive assignments. Because we only had Seider to be that anchor guy and he gets some of the hardest minutes in the league, we are not a team set up super well for an offensive specialist.

I could see Ed/ASP being a banger pair if a few years because I think Ed will be able to help cover with ASP's deficiencies. If they are the 2nd pair with Seider/ Other taking the defensive minutes then you are setting up a guy like ASP to succeed.

I agree 20% of what you wrote, disagree 80.

 

[TheClap]

Much like how waiving Kyle Quincey to keep a 44 year old Chris Chelios and then trading a 1st round pick to bring him back 4 years later would serve as the perfect set of moves to epitomize the back half of Holland's career in Detroit, so too will Walman's contract extension then subsequent unloading a 2nd round pick to dump him a year later while he outscores everyone else on the Wing's D (and all but 3 forwards), epitomize Steve Yzerman's failed tenure.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Walman already passed last seasons totals. What a f***ing joke.

 

[TheClap]

I agree with most of what you said here.

I also have a sneaky suspicion this offseason/trade deadline is when you're going to see Yzerman make some actual bold moves to truly improve the roster. He tried and failed to land stammer and trouba. He knows he has to show results soon and with the young guns coming up in the pipeline the time is not to make a big splash via trade with a top 10 protected first. I have a feeling the pain is almost over as abysmal as this season has started.

Maybe I'm just naive like a Sabres or leafs fan. Or maybe it's Maybelline

How many consecutive years have we said this now? "This is the offseason he makes a big splash." This team isn't anywhere close to a big trade away from being a contender.

The fact he thought Stammer and Trouba would be helpful assets is highly concerning, and should make us doubt him more.

For what it's worth, I think teams recognized that Yzerman was desperate to move Walman and his sitting down the stretch had not gone unnoticed, and so decided to demand at least a second to take him. That's the hardest time of year to move money, and we paid a similar rate to others dumping contracts at the time. I don't think that he accepted a second when making another call would have let him move Walman with only a 4th.

That should have prompted Yzerman to wait and keep Walman. Frankly we never should have been trying to get rid of him in the first place, and especially not if the league decided to take advantage of us. My biggest problem with the trade is who we decided to keep/sign instead of Walman. If you have 5 employees, 2 are good at their jobs and three are useless, you don't fire one of the good guys because they were late to a meeting. You can be picky about the little things when you have an organization of good employees. If you're being desperately kept afloat by a few individuals, you keep them around.

I wouldn't give a shit about Walman if I wasn't watching Chiarot, Petry, Holl and Gustafsson play beer league hockey every game.

Isn't it concerning that a guy that they sign a nice contract extension to, is then labeled a locker room cancer or something based on rumors and hearsay just over a year later, and has to packaged with a second round pick to dump the toxic contract you just gave to this "toxic" player?

Even granting that he is the locker room problem he's alleged to be, then how did you not see that before rewarding him with that contract extension? No matter what angle you look at this, it reflects poorly on Wings management. From an asset management perspective, from a talent and scouting perspective, from a coaching/schematic perspective.

If the Jake Walman Saga doesn't scream absolute dysfunction/incompetence in our front office/locker room, I don't what does. The problem clearly wasn't Walman. The disease is from within.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Isn't it concerning that a guy that they sign a nice contract extension to, is then labeled a locker room cancer or something based on rumors and hearsay just over a year later, and has to packaged with a second round pick to dump the toxic contract you just gave to this "toxic" player?

Even granting that he is the locker room problem he's alleged to be, then how did you not see that before rewarding him with that contract extension? No matter what angle you look at this, it reflects poorly on Wings management. From an asset management perspective, from a talent and scouting perspective, from a coaching/schematic perspective.

If the Jake Walman Saga doesn't scream absolute dysfunction/incompetence in our front office/locker room, I don't what does. The problem clearly wasn't Walman. The disease is from within.

I mostly agree with you but it's also not absolute dysfunction/incompetence. We can chill a bit too though. It's a mistake. One of many that are currently sinking this team. Fortunately all of the problems are minor and short term. The Walman saga is concerning, but as long as we don't bring in more Chia Pets, it's not going to sink this team's future.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Copp, Compher, Holl, the goalie revolving door, Fester, the former Red Wings boys club that has incompetent people in key positions (Draper et al), etc. Yzerman has way more than a few bad moves. Yzerman has been GM for over half a decade and this team is as bad as it was when he started and still years away from truly turning the corner. I love Yzerman and want him to succeed but he’s high on his own supply and needs a wake up call so he can shake up the organization and get some better people and players on the team.

The Walman trade was terrible.

But it’s laughable to suggest the team is anywhere near as bad as the 2020 Wings.

I don’t even know how you could type that and not immediately erase it because of nonsense

 

[Shaman464]

I mostly agree with you but it's also not absolute dysfunction/incompetence. We can chill a bit too though. It's a mistake. One of many that are currently sinking this team. Fortunately all of the problems are minor and short term. The Walman saga is concerning, but as long as we don't bring in more Chia Pets, it's not going to sink this team's future.

The season he came back the Wings had a .451 winning percentage. His first year of management they hit rock bottom, but when he joined at the end of 18-19 the Wings were in the same position they are now, really bad. Detroit still lacks top end talent. Larkin was never the guy you could build an offense around and now he’s going to be 30 and has very little prime ahead of him. Raymond is a very good player but isn’t a top tier guy in a league where 40 other players are at or above PPG. Seider could be a Norris candidate but could also just be a very good top pairing d man. Ed could be the next Makar or he could be a second pairing offensive d man. And Detroit has a lot of future NHLers in the farm but no one that is likely to be a star player.

 

[mikerooooose]

There is also the factor that whatever his locker room issue was (assuming there was one) — he has since taken care of it.

The trade was a shock to him I'm sure and he might be playing well as a "f*** you" to Yzerman.

It's impossible to say if he would have the same outcome if he was still on Detroit.

 

[Boy Hedican]

He got 2 more apples in another impressive game last night (despite the loss). He's been really good. Excellent skater, huge shot, great hands -- not the most defensive d man, and his skill will get his into trouble sometimes, but man what a stud.

To be fair, Grier has done an AMAZING job making SJ the place for players to prove who they are. It's really a perfect storm situation. Losing isn't a problem this season. It's more about the intangibles + individual accolades. Not to suggest team work isn't rewarded or pushed, it's just GMMG seems to understand that rebuilding teams goals isn't to win games. It's more granular than that right now.

Add that to the low pressure environment of San Jose in general, its a perfect place for a player who may not get their chance in others orgs to grow and show their game. Many players never reach their potential due to logjams, and then they get typecast. Not sure this was the case with Walman in DET, but him and Liljegrim are blossoming before our eyes.

 

[SirloinUB]

Bad trade made worse by turning around and signing Gustafsson. It really was a massive miss by Yzerman and co,

 

[Pizza!Pizza!]

Walman already passed last seasons totals. What a f***ing joke.

That's one of those crazy things about hockey when it comes to young players, increased ice time can completely change them. Some players burn out or get exposed/fatigued, others need the extra time to 'find their game' and become better players. There are many trades in hockey history that when you look at in hindsight you scratch your head because some superstar was dealt young before getting a shot (Brett Hull lol). I remember watching Tage Thompson, he wasn't just rookie bad, he was one of the worst players I've ever seen. Buffalo kept playing him and giving him more ice time because they literally do not seem to care about fielding a good team and just played the young kids hoping they'd get good - and he did. Walman had a lot of flashes of brilliance as an offensive defenseman, so I am surprised he didn't get a longer leash or 2nd chance here. In any case, dumping him with a 2nd is unacceptable without a clear explanation from the GM as to WHY.

The Red Wings being worse this year despite getting the best goaltending they've had in a decade means this thread will keep getting bumped after every loss.

Walman is currently 9th in the LEAGUE in points by a Defensemen with a +6. All 5 of his goals are at even strength. (Ghostbear is currently 5th in NHL with -6).

Walman has more points than Petry, Holl, Gustafsson, Chiarot, Johansson and Maatta* (w/Det) COMBINED.

If the Wings miss the playoffs again this year I think we need a new GM.

 

[Retire91]

Never feels great to see a player catch fire after you trade them away especially when facing a draught here, but there is also no guarantee, in fact also quite unlikely that Walman and or Gostisbehere have that kind of season in our current environment. Calling for a GM's head after overall trending upward in talent pool for 5 straight seasons is laughable. It is grossly obvious that some type of personality related issue did not allow Walman to stay with the team. It's also only a few months into a long season and one season in a long career. People are just looking for excuses to bash Yzerman becuase they are sick of losing and I don't blame them for being emotional. But let's also be rational. A trade that looks bad on paper at the moment and let's fire him? LOL hyperbull.