Walman and a 2nd to get rid of Holl is way too steep of a price to pay to get out of Holl’s deal. Maybe if it’s Copp it makes more sense but it’s still terrible asset management.
Confirmed with Link: Walman and a 2nd Round Pick traded to SJ
- Thread starter lhsgolf19
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Walman and a 2nd to get rid of Holl is way too steep of a price to pay to get out of Holl’s deal. Maybe if it’s Copp it makes more sense but it’s still terrible asset management.
Henkka
Registered User
As a normal trade the price will definitely look high or stupid, but you should wait to see the big picture, how the defence is constructed after next two weeks, and then look back.
Something is gonna happen at free agency and this was proactive move.
HisNoodliness
The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
I agree that it's still too steep, but it would be so much better than what apparently happened yesterday. Take into account that management soured on Walman, he was mediocre down the stretch and the whole league seems to know, and suddenly the Walman + 2nd + Holl seems reasonable.
Also if this cap space is used on Ghost and/or Perron, we riot.
At least if it’s to get rid of Holl it makes sense. At face value right now it’s a god awful trade.
I am keeping an open mind but if the plan is to free up money to just sign more UFA D, we are going to end up in the exact same spot in a few years.
19 for president
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Yeah even for a straight Holl cap dump that still seems high but I can at least make some sense of it if Holl gets claimed. I also think there is some smoke about the Wings and Walman's relationship souring so it sounds like the plan was to dump him anyhow, but I can't believe he had no value. His contract for production was not terrible, even with a down year. Unless it comes out that he isn't going to play next season for some reason, this seems very off value wise, unless more develops.
Indrid Cold
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If they dump Holl and get Roy at a decent cap hit, I would see this as a win.
That is my assumption, it is not Yzerman has a lengthy history with Grier, he is not Armstrong, Verbeek or Brisbois. And Yzerman is known for squeezing value, like he did with Dorion last year. Hell even for this trade he created an additional pick. The value of Walman is quite shocking to be honest. Maybe it is because of his NTC, but there shouldn’t be that many which cannot afford his cap hit. Still Yzerman‘s treatment of this case is questionable. How comes Red Wings have so many players you need to get rid immediately without a chance for them to repair their value
izlez
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Any future move is not predicated on this being a terrible trade. This could have been a good trade for fair value to free up money for a bigger move.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Biggest confusion to me is what was the rush to do this right now?
I get that a week from now teams have less cap space, but it seems like you could have reached an agreement with the Sharks for this deal IF NEEDED. Wings had nearly 30 mil in cap space even before this so there was no rush at all to clear anything out. Especially if we consider the possibility that maybe some teams would have been interested in Walman as a plan B or plan C if they strike out in Free agency.
I get that a week from now teams have less cap space, but it seems like you could have reached an agreement with the Sharks for this deal IF NEEDED. Wings had nearly 30 mil in cap space even before this so there was no rush at all to clear anything out. Especially if we consider the possibility that maybe some teams would have been interested in Walman as a plan B or plan C if they strike out in Free agency.
Henkka
Registered User
And Mike Grier doing all these favors... he is targeting to be the Red Wings next GM after Yzerman. 
I don’t even get it from a cap clearing perspective. There wasn’t any need to rush clearing cap space without Mo/Ray contracts in place. If we are signing free agents or making a trade that brings on money, you could do that without having to move out cap now. Then when Mo/Ray deals are ready, if you’re desperate you do something like this.
If this was all a plan to get them to take Holl after we waive him, why haven’t we done that? Is there only a certain timeframe we can waive? I know there are buyout windows, but Rangers just waived Goodrow and he was picked up. I’m just not sold on this deal being part of something bigger with SJ. How often do we see half a deal happen and then a week+ later the “future considerations” come into play?
If this was all a plan to get them to take Holl after we waive him, why haven’t we done that? Is there only a certain timeframe we can waive? I know there are buyout windows, but Rangers just waived Goodrow and he was picked up. I’m just not sold on this deal being part of something bigger with SJ. How often do we see half a deal happen and then a week+ later the “future considerations” come into play?
If holl or one of those bad contracts aren’t on waivers today then I’m gonna be very concerned with this move
Well the deal took place after 2pm which was when I believe players need to be waived by so in theory I’m guessing he wanted everything done on the deal before waiving holl/whoever else it may be. That’s the only thing I’m holding on to but again we should know by 2pm todat that is part of the deal. If it’s not I’m just totally lost I just don’t see how Walman was such a negative value
Ed Ned and Leddy
Brokering the Bally Sports + Corncob TV Merger
Thaaaaank you, the over-contextualizing here is so out of hand. Everyone on this board thought Walman was one of our four best blue liners last year. Nobody even remotely thought his 2x3 was a cap obstacle. I don’t know how people see this and just put their hands up like “Oh well, nothing else Yzerman could’ve done to clear 3m in cap space. I’m sure future moves will justify it.” Like what on earth?
Henkka
Registered User
On latest presser Yzerman said Walman had some muscle injury which was bothering him late on the season.
So maybe it could end same way like Copp ?
Going to surgery, never the same player again?
Like you could rehab, but maybe you will never be the same Walman again he was at his best. Able to play, and not possible for LTIR.
Justin moving on from him, without taking that risk and opening the LD slots for LD kids.
The long-term plan hasn't changed anywhere, how the growth will come from our LD, thanks to our LD kids and RD should be build with vets behind Seider.
And what Sandin Pellikka will do for that mix, it's still far far away in the future.
So maybe it could end same way like Copp ?
Going to surgery, never the same player again?
Like you could rehab, but maybe you will never be the same Walman again he was at his best. Able to play, and not possible for LTIR.
Justin moving on from him, without taking that risk and opening the LD slots for LD kids.
The long-term plan hasn't changed anywhere, how the growth will come from our LD, thanks to our LD kids and RD should be build with vets behind Seider.
And what Sandin Pellikka will do for that mix, it's still far far away in the future.
HisNoodliness
The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
I think it's mostly that we can't understand it unless it's predicated on other moves. Does Yzerman have dementia? Is Yzerman trying to make the Red Wings worse? If both of those are no, then there has to be more to the story.
Ed Ned and Leddy
Brokering the Bally Sports + Corncob TV Merger
If after a trade you speculate that any of:
1) the player’s muscles are turning to dust;
2) the player did some egregious acts off of the ice; or
3) future considerations isn’t a like 7th round pick swap but instead something valuable for the first time in NHL history
you probably did not get good value for that player.
I’m with you, I agree that there’s likely something else going on. What I can’t get behind is that people are comfortable with this value based on on-ice performance.
1) the player’s muscles are turning to dust;
2) the player did some egregious acts off of the ice; or
3) future considerations isn’t a like 7th round pick swap but instead something valuable for the first time in NHL history
you probably did not get good value for that player.
I’m with you, I agree that there’s likely something else going on. What I can’t get behind is that people are comfortable with this value based on on-ice performance.
HisNoodliness
The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
Yeah I totally agree. We're grasping at straws. We're a bunch of children reading a Superman comic where he murders everyone in an old person's home. When that happens "those old people were secret biological weapons constructed by Braniac" is easier to accept than "Supes just needed to blow off some steam." Maybe we're reading Injustice though and we just haven't realized it yet.
Henkka
Registered User
Easy mathematics is:
A) Can Yzerman make Red Wings better by signing another 3M defenceman?
or
B) Can Yzerman make Red Wings better getting rid of 3.4M defenceman, and signing 6.4M defenceman, instead of another 3M defenceman?
And, there's also the roster spot thing existing. You have to open something to bring something else in.
HisNoodliness
The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
My answer to both of those is an emphatic no. Also we should still have been able to trade Walman for something instead of as a cap dump. Also we have 4 defenseman on worse contracts that should have moved first, and I find it hard to believe that any of them outside of Holl would have cost more than a 2nd.
Ed Ned and Leddy
Brokering the Bally Sports + Corncob TV Merger
Be honest. 48 hours ago someone asks how you’d suggest clearing 3.4m in cap space and one roster spot. You can suggest, idk, a dozen options that you think are reasonable paths to getting there.
Is trading a 2nd round pick to dump Jake Walman on your list of suggestions?
I think there are way too many conspirancy theories based on how unexpected it was - we need to accept the reality:
- Yzerman wanted to get rid of at least one maybe more defensemen, at decided on Walman, based on ??? (like his play last year or off-ice reasons for him being benched or whatever)
- Walman's value was ridiculously low
- Yzerman still decided that having Walman and his cap around is more detriment than waiting for his value to rebound and try to move somebody else
- There is no backroom agreements between Grier and Yzerman - if they wanted they could have included Holl or swap 14th and 15th picks in this trade.
- Everybody need just to take off from main board if they cannot handle stupidity of Sens' fans
Basically we can agree or disagree with Yzerman, but the market's gives him some kind of confirmation in his wish to get rid of him - Walman just does not seems like a hot commodity.
- Yzerman wanted to get rid of at least one maybe more defensemen, at decided on Walman, based on ??? (like his play last year or off-ice reasons for him being benched or whatever)
- Walman's value was ridiculously low
- Yzerman still decided that having Walman and his cap around is more detriment than waiting for his value to rebound and try to move somebody else
- There is no backroom agreements between Grier and Yzerman - if they wanted they could have included Holl or swap 14th and 15th picks in this trade.
- Everybody need just to take off from main board if they cannot handle stupidity of Sens' fans
Basically we can agree or disagree with Yzerman, but the market's gives him some kind of confirmation in his wish to get rid of him - Walman just does not seems like a hot commodity.
LongTimeDRWF
Registered User
That was my first take, if Holl hits the waiver wire for a buyout tomorrow, SJ claims him. The PA will be pissed, but sometimes, the GM has to be the GM.
