Traded Vladimir Tarasenko (1 year, 5 million)

[flyingfingers]

I'm supposed to put stock into what TSN analysts think of Tarasenko?

Let's not play these stupid games. He's a 2nd line scorer that put up top 6 numbers for us despite playing a fair bit of the season at 3rd line RW and almost exclusively on PP2.

I didn't list the 4th that Kane returned because the 4th was likely for Mikkola. And yes I listed it as a conditional 1st for that very reason.

I'm not considering it a catastrophe he got a future 3rd and a 4th, but you're rationalizing this as if this wasn't a return universally viewed as god awful even given the circumstances.

The return is only being viewed as "god awful" by Sens fan here and on Twitter who overrate the player because he was a decent bright spot around a lot of shit. I mean, some Sens fans seem to be pointing to the Wennberg deal as being proof... despite the fact that Wennberg is the more useful player.

Reasonable people around the hockey world (like TSN analysts) are certainly not taking the stance of this being a terrible return.

And Tarasenko has been a second-line scorer on a 28th-place team. He's not a second-line scorer on a Stanley Cup contender. He's a depth piece and the Panthers paid a depth piece price.

Also, by your logic, if Kane got a 1st, Tarasenko got two 3rds, not a 3rd and 4th.

Like I said before, without a NMC, I think Tarasenko could have gotten a 2nd and 4th, the same as Mantha. So am I shocked that considering he had control of the trade, he got a 3rd and 4th? No. It is what it is.

What was crazy was people throwing out things like a 1st rounder or Anton Lundell.

 

[Ouroboros]

I'm not sure how much value was even left on the table. Publicly, it was reported that the Sens were asking for a 2nd and a prospect, which is nominally the same as a 2nd and a 4th. They got a 3rd and a 4th. It's not an outstanding return, but it's not the end of the world either.

I don't see how you can play hardball if you're in Staios' shoes. If Florida is the only place Tarasenko will go then you need to move on that. They might be his only choice, but is he theirs? The market is teeming with scoring wingers. Keeping him out of spite is really bad. You think players don't take notice of that sort of thing? They do. Ottawa is already a near-impossible destination to get players to come to and that sort of thing would just make it worse. We can't be ruthless they way Vegas or New York can. It's just not viable.

It is what it is.

 

[chipsens]

It's not a good look to give away Tarasenko for scraps.

Let's other team's GMs know that Staios will compromise and settle for a bad return.

Doesn't bode well for a potential Chychrun return.

If trading players is like poker, then Staois has a twitchy eye that is an obvious tell
Or is this also on Poulin hockey ops genius?!

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I'd be curious to know what the supposed Edmonton offer was that Tarasenko turned down.

All the word was they were all in on a center, likely Henrique, so I certainly don't see it like we were getting what they gave up for him as it was likely a both scenario, not Senko instead. Could see us having needed to take back a contract like Kulak or Ceci.

 

[Hale The Villain]

You're being unreasonable.

A player's value isn't just determined by what he did in the ~50 games before a trade, it's dictated by what GMs think he can provide to their team after the deal.

The year before the trade, Kane had put up 92 points. There was a reasonable belief among GMs that he could be a 1st line winger if he caught fire in the playoffs.

The same was true for Giroux. The Panthers were trading for a guy who was, without a doubt, going to be a top-six, if not a top-four forward for them.

Now, neither of those trades ended up working out. But both players had more value and higher expectations.

Tarasenko still had some pedigree last year, but there's a much more tempered view of him today.

Nobody believes he'll be anything more than a 15-minute-a-night, second-PP complimentary depth player on a contender, which is why the return was what it was.

GMs trading for rentals care far more about how a player is playing in the current season than what they have done in the past. Your point would make more sense if they were trading for players with term.

Your view of Giroux is coloured by his resurgence here in Ottawa. When he was traded he was coming off of 3 almost identical seasons averaging around 60P/82GP.

Kane is a legend and was incredible the year before, but teams trading for Kane knew that he was playing through a hip injury all season, which is why he only had 45 points in 54 games that year.

Tarasenko's play last season and this season is basically the same. He wasn't forcing himself to only be traded to the Rangers like Kane, which is why he returned a 1st+, but only getting a 3rd+4th is laughable and it's amusing to see so many people jump right to stage 3 so quickly.

 

[flyingfingers]

GMs trading for rentals care far more about how a player is playing in the current season than what they have done in the past. Your point would make more sense if they were trading for players with term.

Your view of Giroux is coloured by his resurgence here in Ottawa. When he was traded he was coming off of 3 almost identical seasons averaging around 60P/82GP.

Kane is a legend and was incredible the year before, but teams trading for Kane knew that he was playing through a hip injury all season, which is why he only had 45 points in 54 games that year.

Tarasenko's play last season and this season is basically the same. He wasn't forcing himself to only be traded to the Rangers like Kane, which is why he returned a 1st+, but only getting a 3rd+4th is laughable and it's amusing to see so many people jump right to stage 3 so quickly.

GMs care about what they think the player will do when they get to their team. If a lot of GMs think a player will be good for them, the price will be high. If not a lot of GMs think a player will be good for them, the price will be low.

Last year, the Rangers thought that they were getting a top-line scorer. They whiffed. This year, nobody thinks that Tarasenko would be a top-line scorer, despite him having decent numbers on a terrible team.

Things change fast. Tarasenko went from being traded for a 1st at the deadline to settling for a 1-year deal in Ottawa.

The Panthers are trading for a depth player.

His value was a 2nd + 4th without the NMC. Considering he had the clause, why would anyone be surprised at this return? It's not that far off.

The catastrophizing is hilarious.

What were you expecting?

 

[Hale The Villain]

GMs care about what they think the player will do when they get to their team. If a lot of GMs think a player will be good for them, the price will be high. If not a lot of GMs think a player will be good for them, the price will be low.

Last year, the Rangers thought that they were getting for a top-line scorer. They whiffed. This year, nobody thinks that Tarasenko is a top-line, despite him having decent numbers on a terrible team.

Things change fast.

The Panthers are trading for a depth player.

You can call Tarasenko a depth player all you want, it's just not true.

He's 100th in the league in forward PPG (min 20GP) and that's with playing a fair amount of time on the 3rd line because we have Giroux and Batherson at RW, not to mention normally playing PP2.

He's easily a 2nd line forward. He may play 3rd line RW in Florida because they have Tkachuk and Reinhart on the right-side, but that doesn't mean he's a depth player.

 

[flyingfingers]

You can call Tarasenko a depth player all you want, it's just not true.

He's 100th in the league in forward PPG (min 20GP) and that's with playing a fair amount of time on the 3rd line because we have Giroux and Batherson at RW, not to mention normally playing PP2.

He's easily a 2nd line forward. He may play 3rd line RW in Florida because they have Tkachuk and Reinhart on the right-side, but that doesn't mean he's a depth player.

Again, he's a 2nd line forward on a 28th-place team. Not on a contender.

Frank Vatrano is a first-liner in Anaheim, but no playoff team trading for him will think he's going to be a first-liner for them. If he ends up in NY, he'll be a complimentary forward.

On Florida, in terms of importance and ice time, Tarasenko is going to be behind Tkachuk, Barkov, Verhaeghe, Reinhart, Lundell, Bennett and Lundell. He'll be on par with Luostarinen and Rodrigues. So he's their 8-10th forward. AKA. a depth guy.

Hell, Tarasenko was 8th in ice time amongst forwards here. And we suck.

 

[chipsens]

Not trading Tarasenko and then letting him walk for nothing would have been indefensible. I'm sure Staios got the highest picks available to him.

Defending the indefensible: the crappy picks Sens got back will never play for Baby Sens, let alone for the Senators. If we kept Tank for the rest of the season, fans would have seen him play for the remaining 20 games at a cost of $2.5mill. IMO keeping him is better than retaining $2.5mil for nothing. IMO Staois/Poulin got fleeced. Amateurs

 

[Hale The Villain]

Again, he's a 2nd line forward on a 28th-place team. Not on a contender.

Frank Vatrano is a first-liner in Anaheim, but no playoff teams trading for him will think he's going to be a first-liner for them.

On Florida, in terms of importance and ice time, Tarasenko is going to be behind Tkachuk, Barkov, Verhaeghe, Reinhart, Lundell, Bennett and Lundell. He'll be on par with Luostarinen and Rodrigues. So he's their 8-10th forward. AKA. a depth guy.

He'd be a 2nd line forward on their team immediately if he plays LW.

He's better than Lundell, arguably better than Bennett and far better than Loustarinen and Rodrigues.

Only forwards clearly better than him on that roster are Tkachuk, Barkov, Reinhart and Verhaeghe.

 

[flyingfingers]

He'd be a 2nd line forward on their team immediately if he plays LW.

He's better than Lundell, arguably better than Bennett and far better than Loustarinen and Rodrigues.

Only forwards clearly better than him on that roster are Tkachuk, Barkov, Reinhart and Verhaeghe.

He doesn't play LW. He plays RW.

If you think he's getting top 6 minutes there, you're out to lunch, so I'm not surprised that you're upset by this trade.

Nobody around the league that's not a die-hard Sens fan shares your view.

Last year with the Rangers in the playoffs, he played 15 min a night and was ninth in even strength ice-time amongst forwards. He was a 3rd liner who got PP time.

Florida is better and he'll get less time there. I'd bet that 5v5, he's around 11-12 min a night, which will put him 9th or 10th on their team.

 

[GCK]

He'd be a 2nd line forward on their team immediately if he plays LW.

He's better than Lundell, arguably better than Bennett and far better than Loustarinen and Rodrigues.

Only forwards clearly better than him on that roster are Tkachuk, Barkov, Reinhart and Verhaeghe.

This is a luxury add for Florida so I’m skeptical there was anymore meat to get off that bone.

 

[Hale The Villain]

This is a luxury add for Florida so I’m skeptical there was anymore meat to get off that bone.

No they definitely had room to add a top 9 forward. Guys like Cousins, Gadjovich, Lomberg, Stenlund, etc... are ideally located on the 4th line rather than the 3rd.

He'll finish off that top 9 group perfectly.

 

[GCK]

No they definitely had room to add a top 9 forward. Guys like Cousins, Gadjovich, Lomberg, Stenlund, etc... are ideally located on the 4th line rather than the 3rd.

He'll finish off that top 9 group perfectly.

But they didn’t need to add, they were already the best team in the East. Zero leverage for the Sens.

 

[Hale The Villain]

But they didn’t need to add, they were already the best team in the East. Zero leverage for the Sens.

They are the best team but that doesn't mean they don't need to add.

Rangers added Wennberg and Bruins may be adding E.Lindholm, and both are nipping at their heels.

Cup isn't in the bag for them just yet.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The Rangers seemed to learn from their big game hunting in the past with Senko and Kane too. Much wiser play by them this year imo.

 

[Tundraman]

Oh well I guess the picks could get them a lower ranked goalie who'll turn into a superstar or a project player who becomes that coveted right D they've been looking for.

 

[flyingfingers]

No they definitely had room to add a top 9 forward. Guys like Cousins, Gadjovich, Lomberg, Stenlund, etc... are ideally located on the 4th line rather than the 3rd.

He'll finish off that top 9 group perfectly.

This is how their forwards rank in ice-time at 5v5:

Verhaeghe: 14:46
Tkachuk: 14:28
Reinhart: 14:28
Bennett: 14:19
Barkov: 14:10
Rodrigues: 13:36
Lundell: 13:01
Luostarinen: 12:41
Cousins: 12:24

In Ottawa, he was getting 13:45 a game at 5v5 (but we're terrible). Last year with the Rangers, he got 12:46 in the playoffs.

That's probably around what he'll get in FLA. So he'll be their 8-10th forward at ES and have a spot on the 2nd PP.

That's what teams call a depth piece.

 

[Micklebot]

So, not sure if this has been brought up or not, but apparently his wife and youngest kids live in Florida while his oldest kid came here to live in Ottawa with him as he's a goalie and they saw an opportunity for him to play in a more competitive league I guess? So... The whole his family seems to like Ottawa was probably a pretty big leap.

 

[flyingfingers]

So, not sure if this has been brought up or not, but apparently his wife and youngest kids live in Florida while his oldest kid came here to live in Ottawa with him as he's a goalie and they saw an opportunity for him to play in a more competitive league I guess? So... The whole his family seems to like Ottawa was probably a pretty big leap.

His wife hated Ottawa so much she abandoned her son, her own flesh and blood! Rough!

Ottawa does have a really good goaltending development center/camp though. Vasilevskyi spent summers training in Stittsville when he was a prospect.

 

[Tuna99]

Defending the indefensible: the crappy picks Sens got back will never play for Baby Sens, let alone for the Senators. If we kept Tank for the rest of the season, fans would have seen him play for the remaining 20 games at a cost of $2.5mill. IMO keeping him is better than retaining $2.5mil for nothing. IMO Staois/Poulin got fleeced. Amateurs

Might make you feel better that Tank makes Florida better which in turn makes the Leafs worse.

 

[Micklebot]

Wennberg getting a second is a bit depressing...

That NMC though... I guess expectations were never that we'd be flipping him, Korpisalo signing really ruined this season imo.

 

[PlayOn]

So, not sure if this has been brought up or not, but apparently his wife and youngest kids live in Florida while his oldest kid came here to live in Ottawa with him as he's a goalie and they saw an opportunity for him to play in a more competitive league I guess? So... The whole his family seems to like Ottawa was probably a pretty big leap.

It’s all just PR fluff. Like when someone gets 60 million dollars to play here so they say how great the city is and how we’re gonna win soon!

 

[BigRig4]

His wife hated Ottawa so much she abandoned her son, her own flesh and blood! Rough!

Ottawa does have a really good goaltending development center/camp though. Vasilevskyi spent summers training in Stittsville when he was a prospect.

Maybe the Sens can send their players there then

 

[lancepitlick]

I don't know how people can sit here and say that Staois needs to announce his plan or do something - anything - to "make a statement."

This is exactly the kind of thinking that got the club into this mess in the first place. You don't broadcast what you're going to do as you lose leverage. You don't make moves for PR reasons even if they don't help you in the long-term. See: Duchesne, Debrincat, Chychrun, ZBad, Hoffman etc., Korpisalo, even Tarasenko himself was a desperation move to cover up for the Debrincat blunder. If you offer a 1 year deal and a full NMC how can you hold out for a King's ransom? You are playing a game of chicken with Tarasenko/Florida and it's just as likely you end up on Saturday with nothing and another 20 meaningless games of Tarasenko. What would the reaction to that be?

I have some bad news for people: the team as constructed is terrible and they have no assets, little cap space or ways to improve. You can like or hate that, but that's the situation. If you want to get out of that hole it's going to take time, luck, and smarts. Is that what anyone wants to hear after 7 years of misery? To expect even more misery? Of course not, but what we want isn't always whatb is possible.

I wouldn't be surprised if takes another 3-4 years to get this team looking good/healthy. If that's how long it takes then that's how long it takes, but I'd rather it be done right then done wrong/fast/summer of Dorion. Maybe Staois should announce that next year will commence FYOUS.

Nothing done to date has made anything worse in the long run. In fact, it's the opposite.