Player Discussion Vitali Kravtsov - Signed 2-Year Deal with Traktor Chelyabinsk

[Bleach Clean]

A 7th is worthless. There's no difference between that and just signing and extra undrafted UFA. If anything the 7th has a lower success rate.

It's a weird thing to be upset about.

This was a talented player and high draft pick who pretty notoriously had a rocky relationship with his prior club (where he was also stuck behind two other high draft picks in Kaako and Lafreniere who were being prioritized). It cost basically nothing to see if a change of scenery could get something more out of him.

When Benning was trading 2nds and 3rds for this type of asset that was worth being mad about. This is literally nothing.

What does this have to do with Benning? Nothing.

This regime has already traded picks for cap dumps, so they provide their own context on pick evaluation. Benning is irrelevant here.



To your first point: Well then sign the undrafted UFA and don't waste the qualifying contract slot.

This is a waste of assets, however small, and speaks to larger issues regarding pick evaluation, how they are judging their current environment (immediate coaching style conflict with player style), the player's exit options (higher than normal), and pro scouting (were they blind to his play in NYR?) accuracy. It's a failure right from when they were chasing this player onward, for essentially, pedigree.

 

[bossram]

My take now is the same as it was at the time of the trade: A fine low-risk, low-reward bet. The cost was basically nothing and there was still some slim chance Kravstov could be an effective NHLer. The mostly likely outcome was always that it would amount to nothing.

I would like the posters who literally called this trade a "fleecing" to please raise their hands now though.

 

[Cupless44]

It was a free hit. A 7th in 2026 or whatever is totally worthless. Lockwood is UFA.

Kravtsov is a talented player, and he had a couple games here where he competed harder and you could see that he had the ability to be an NHL player if he could compete like that every night. I don't think it was a terrible bet to take a free hit on a guy like that and see if a new organization and new coach could hit the right note with him.



I'm guessing it was mutual - to me the writing was on the wall when he was healthy scratched for the last couple games of the season.

I don't think it was a terrible bet either

But we don't need to see more than 16 games. He is useless in the NHL. Back to KHL where he belongs.

 

[Hodgy]

Kravtsov wasn't willing to do that because the coach is effort and 2way play focused. It was inevitable that we would exit to the easier path given that environment.

It wasn't inevitable.

The pro scouting expected this player to wash out of the system, effectively, after 16 games?

I said that the pro scouting team would have known it was unlikely that he would pan out. I suspect they also thought it was unlikely that he'd stick in North America even after the 16 games. This makes sense and is why he was only worth a 7th round pick.

I'll push back there. The pro-scouting and/or the GM should never expect a bet to wash out that quickly, even if the cost is low.

It's a 7th round pick in like 2026. It's basically the least valuable asset you are actually able to trade. So ya, I can't imagine anyone is all that surprising right now in the Vancouver Canucks front office.


And one thing you haven't really recognized is the fact that Kravtsov isn't a dead asset. He could still turn into an NHL player in the KHL over the next two years. And I would say there is like a 1-5% chance that happens.

 

[racerjoe]

The lowest asset price would be a waiver pick up/signing.

Again, if you don't want the chance, which are slight I know, trade the pick for 16 games of nothing.

We traded the lowest pick you could, and a contract slot... this was as free as you could get. the 7th for a contract slot is probably the fair value, and we got Krav on top of that for free.

This is complaining to complain.

 

[Bleach Clean]

It wasn't inevitable.

I said that the pro scouting team would have known it was unlikely that he would pan out. I suspect they also thought it was unlikely that he'd stick in North America even after the 16 games. This makes sense and is why he was only worth a 7th round pick.

It's a 7th round pick in like 2026. It's basically the least valuable asset you are actually able to trade. So ya, I can't imagine anyone is all that surprising right now in the Vancouver Canucks front office.

And one thing you haven't really recognized is the fact that Kravtsov isn't a dead asset. He could still turn into an NHL player in the KHL over the next two years. And I would say there is like a 1-5% chance that happens.

It's method that is concerning here, not just that the 7th is a non-worthless asset. (It has a worth)

If you have something of worth, keep it instead of giving it away for something that is worthless. Very basic economics.

16 games in garbage time, as a lazy player, for a demanding coach, and a clear lane to the KHL... This was inevitable. He would have had to reinvent himself completely to succeed (bad bet). And even if he did do so in 2 years, do you think he's coming back to play for Tocchet? Really?

Far better to make that same bet on a try hard/busy player that had no pedigree and lesser skill. A player that was also incentivized to stay in North America for further development. Not all of these low risk bets are the same.

 

[MS]

What does this have to do with Benning? Nothing.

This regime has already traded picks for cap dumps, so they provide their own context on pick evaluation. Benning is irrelevant here.



To your first point: Well then sign the undrafted UFA and don't waste the qualifying contract slot.

This is a waste of assets, however small, and speaks to larger issues regarding pick evaluation, how they are judging their current environment (immediate coaching style conflict with player style), the player's exit options (higher than normal), and pro scouting (were they blind to his play in NYR?) accuracy. It's a failure right from when they were chasing this player onward, for essentially, pedigree.

You are reading way, way too much into a tiny transaction where they had a 16-game look at a prospect for essentially free.

The overall pro scouting from this regime so far on young/fringe players has been very good (Aman, Joshua, Bains, Wolanin, etc.) and there's no reason to suggest this nothing transaction is any cause for concern.

What on earth is a 'qualifying contract slot'?

 

[Nucker101]

Milstein betrayal


Totally fine with trades like this, a 7th is nothing and taking a low-risk swing at former hyped prospects is what smart teams do, in the NHL and other leagues.

 

[Hodgy]

It's method that is concerning here, not just that the 7th is a non-worthless asset. (It has a worth)

There is nothing concerning about the method. They paid basically nothing to see if a once highly regarded prospect might be able to turn it around on a new team (or later in the KHL). The fact that it looks like Kravtsov won't be able to turn it around is hardly surprising and something the Canucks likely expected.

If you have something of worth, keep it instead of giving it away for something that is worthless. Very basic economics.

Sure, but this very clearly doesn't apply here. In fact, even with Kravtsov going back to the KHL, you could argue he's still more valuable than the 2026 7th round pick we gave up.

16 games in garbage time, as a lazy player, for a demanding coach, and a clear lane to the KHL... This was inevitable.

It wasn't inevitable and it won't become inevitable just because you keep on obtusely stating it.

He would have had to reinvent himself completely to succeed (bad bet). And even if he did do so in 2 years, do you think he's coming back to play for Tocchet? Really?

Of course he was going to have to "reinvent himself" or at the very least have a very strong change in play. That's why he only cost a 7th round pick.

Far better to make that same bet on a try hard/busy player that had no pedigree and lesser skill. A player that was also incentivized to stay in North America for further development. Not all of these low risk bets are the same.

I'd rather go the boom/bust route when we are talking a 7th round pick.

 

[Bleach Clean]

You are reading way, way too much into a tiny transaction where they had a 16-game look at a prospect for essentially free.

The overall pro scouting from this regime so far on young/fringe players has been very good (Aman, Joshua, Bains, Wolanin, etc.) and there's no reason to suggest this nothing transaction is any cause for concern.

What on earth is a 'qualifying contract slot'?

QOs are 1 year contracts, right?

Again, a 7th is not free. (You keep saying this, and it's not true)

Good compared to what? What is your baseline for judging those players? I'm just looking at the Kravtsov deal as a mistake. A failure in pro scouting. They chased this player for pedigree, despite what he was actually showing the league.

 

[Diversification]

 

[MS]

QOs are 1 year contracts, right?

Again, a 7th is not free. (You keep saying this, and it's not true)

Good compared to what? What is your baseline for judging those players? I'm just looking at the Kravtsov deal as a mistake. A failure in pro scouting. They chased this player for pedigree, despite what he was actually showing the league.

He's getting a QO but won't be signing it now so he doesn't take up a contract slot.

A 7th four years from now is basically free. If the draft was 20 rounds long, someone would trade their 20th rounder and some 20th rounder would play some games but it doesn't mean its worth isn't totally negligible.

It doesn't look like a mistake to me. They invested nothing and likely knew the outcome was going to be poor. It was a dirt cheap lottery ticket. And as @Hodgy pointed out above, the 4 years of free team control on Kravtsov that we still have are probably worth more than the pick.

And again, given that their pro scouting so far on depth players actually looks pretty good, this is a really weird thing to be getting bent out of shape about.

 

[Bleach Clean]

There is nothing concerning about the method. They paid basically nothing to see if a once highly regarded prospect might be able to turn it around on a new team (or later in the KHL). The fact that it looks like Kravtsov won't be able to turn it around is hardly surprising and something the Canucks likely expected.

Sure, but this very clearly doesn't apply here. In fact, even with Kravtsov going back to the KHL, you could argue he's still more valuable than the 2026 7th round pick we gave up.

It wasn't inevitable and it won't become inevitable just because you keep on obtusely stating it.

Of course he was going to have to "reinvent himself" or at the very least have a very strong change in play. That's why he only cost a 7th round pick.

I'd rather go the boom/bust route when we are talking a 7th round pick.

Boom/bust is fine, so long as it has a greater runway that 16 games. I don't even think the Canucks expected that.

Was he going to reinvent himself here from the bench?

You could argue that a never-to-return, lazy Kravtsov is worth more than the long-shot 7th rounder, of course. That said, I'd rather be on this side of that argument than your side of it. I'll take the 7th.

When the environment is built to oppose what he naturally is as a player, it's all but inevitable he fails within 16 games. (Miracle percentage aside)

 

[Bleach Clean]

He's getting a QO but won't be signing it now so he doesn't take up a contract slot.

A 7th four years from now is basically free. If the draft was 20 rounds long, someone would trade their 20th rounder and some 20th rounder would play some games but it doesn't mean its worth isn't totally negligible.

It doesn't look like a mistake to me. They invested nothing and likely knew the outcome was going to be poor. It was a dirt cheap lottery ticket. And as @Hodgy pointed out above, the 4 years of free team control on Kravtsov that we still have are probably worth more than the pick.

And again, given that their pro scouting so far on depth players actually looks pretty good, this is a really weird thing to be getting bent out of shape about.

It looks good to you. To me, it's middling, but again there's no baseline.

I'll take the 7th over team control.

There's a low percentage chance of success we are each ascribing to our sides: You and Hodgy are placing it on the probability that he returns (preference for team control). I'm placing it upon the use of that 7th. The key is that we are not assigning value to the other side. You're saying a 7th is worthless (again, it's not), and I'm saying he will never develop/return (he might (miracle)). By percentage, we both could be right/wrong.

By method, you see a lazy player with high pedigree and you place him in an environment that is built to make him fail. And when he does after 16 bloody games, it's a bet not even worth consideration. Just about the only thing they had was the Milsteiin/Team control angle.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I want the pick back.

Arguably the worst conditioned hockey player I have seen since “fetal position” Juolevi

I want it back as well.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I agree with the principles of what you are saying. I would say that it’s ok to change your mind about a player after seeing the player up close. It’s not unusual for “change of scenery” players to suddenly play well after a change of scenery and there being a multitude of reasons for the prior struggles that you really can’t see or know without being in the room so to speak.

With that said, you are right in asking essentially “what changed?” Were the Canucks expecting Kravtsov to step in and look like a middle 6 winger? His own coach talked about Kravtsov’s problems putting in the puck in the net and was too easily pushed off the puck in NY. He came advertised here which is disappointing but nevertheless should be in the realm of expectations for the Canucks. He needed a big summer and like you said 16 games shouldn’t typically swing an assessment.

It’s possible that this was merely situational. When I suggested giving him a 2 year contract a lot of posters here were against it because he hasn’t earned it. But the problem is that if the Canucks really have little to no confidence in Kravtsov having a place on the team next season then management probably expressed that too him either directly or indirectly. Kravtsov decided to take the sure thing.

This isn’t worst case scenario of course. Kravtsov will be a RFA in two years time and might be ready to be a good player in the NHL then.

I agree with much of what has been said here. I would say that changing your mind on the player is fine, but after 16 games? That only happens because the coach benched him (for the right reasons) and made management's decision for them.

You have to ask this question about management's vision here. No matter how much push back there is. Even at this low, low cost, what is management really thinking is going to happen here? He came as advertised. Lazy and inconsistent. They knew what they were getting. They also knew who his coach would be. Putting those two things together, I'm not sure how they could have reasonably expected a different result?

 

[vancityluongo]

I want it back as well.

tbh i'd guess there are probably a half dozen teams in the league who would trade a 2026 7th back to us for Kravstov's rights now. his value probably improved with this announcement by not taking up a roster spot for the next two years lol

he's going to be 25 when this deal is up, that might be when things start to click and he can put in the effort to be an nhl'er. if not, it came at literally no cost.

 

[Javaman]

I agree with much of what has been said here. I would say that changing your mind on the player is fine, but after 16 games? That only happens because the coach benched him (for the right reasons) and made management's decision for them.

You have to ask this question about management's vision here. No matter how much push back there is. Even at this low, low cost, what is management really thinking is going to happen here? He came as advertised. Lazy and inconsistent. They knew what they were getting. They also knew who his coach would be. Putting those two things together, I'm not sure how they could have reasonably expected a different result?

What does this have to do with Benning? Nothing.

This regime has already traded picks for cap dumps, so they provide their own context on pick evaluation. Benning is irrelevant here.



To your first point: Well then sign the undrafted UFA and don't waste the qualifying contract slot.

This is a waste of assets, however small, and speaks to larger issues regarding pick evaluation, how they are judging their current environment (immediate coaching style conflict with player style), the player's exit options (higher than normal), and pro scouting (were they blind to his play in NYR?) accuracy. It's a failure right from when they were chasing this player onward, for essentially, pedigree.

It's method that is concerning here, not just that the 7th is a non-worthless asset. (It has a worth)

If you have something of worth, keep it instead of giving it away for something that is worthless. Very basic economics.

16 games in garbage time, as a lazy player, for a demanding coach, and a clear lane to the KHL... This was inevitable. He would have had to reinvent himself completely to succeed (bad bet). And even if he did do so in 2 years, do you think he's coming back to play for Tocchet? Really?

Far better to make that same bet on a try hard/busy player that had no pedigree and lesser skill. A player that was also incentivized to stay in North America for further development. Not all of these low risk bets are the same.

There is nothing concerning about the method. They paid basically nothing to see if a once highly regarded prospect might be able to turn it around on a new team (or later in the KHL). The fact that it looks like Kravtsov won't be able to turn it around is hardly surprising and something the Canucks likely expected.



Sure, but this very clearly doesn't apply here. In fact, even with Kravtsov going back to the KHL, you could argue he's still more valuable than the 2026 7th round pick we gave up.



It wasn't inevitable and it won't become inevitable just because you keep on obtusely stating it.


Of course he was going to have to "reinvent himself" or at the very least have a very strong change in play. That's why he only cost a 7th round pick.

I'd rather go the boom/bust route when we are talking a 7th round pick.

QOs are 1 year contracts, right?

Again, a 7th is not free. (You keep saying this, and it's not true)

Good compared to what? What is your baseline for judging those players? I'm just looking at the Kravtsov deal as a mistake. A failure in pro scouting. They chased this player for pedigree, despite what he was actually showing the league.

Boom/bust is fine, so long as it has a greater runway that 16 games. I don't even think the Canucks expected that.

Was he going to reinvent himself here from the bench?

You could argue that a never-to-return, lazy Kravtsov is worth more than the long-shot 7th rounder, of course. That said, I'd rather be on this side of that argument than your side of it. I'll take the 7th.

When the environment is built to oppose what he naturally is as a player, it's all but inevitable he fails within 16 games. (Miracle percentage aside)

It looks good to you. To me, it's middling, but again there's no baseline.

I'll take the 7th over team control.

There's a low percentage chance of success we are each ascribing to our sides: You and Hodgy are placing it on the probability that he returns (preference for team control). I'm placing it upon the use of that 7th. The key is that we are not assigning value to the other side. You're saying a 7th is worthless (again, it's not), and I'm saying he will never develop/return (he might (miracle)). By percentage, we both could be right/wrong.

By method, you see a lazy player with high pedigree and you place him in an environment that is built to make him fail. And when he does after 16 bloody games, it's a bet not even worth consideration. Just about the only thing they had was the Milsteiin/Team control angle.

I want it back as well.

Dude, it's a 7th round pick. You've put more effort into complaining about "lost value" in the trade than Kravtsov ever put into any game he played as a Canuck.

 

[NickyFotiu]

The 2026 7th round pick..the key pick to forever secure the NYR dynasty.

View attachment 711883

I think your management was smart to risk a 7th round pick. That was nothing for a former high 1st round draft pick. You took a flier on a potentially high reward low risk trade. It did not work out but your team is unlikely to miss a 7th round pick.

 

[God]

Kravstov will come back after this deal is over and he will be a changed man.

 

[strattonius]

Kravtsov left pretty much everyone uninspired but if you'd take a 7th rd pick over Kravtsov for the next 3 yrs of control you are the one not evaluating your assets properly.

The odds of Kravtsov turning his game around and making the NHL in a few years is EXPONENTIALLY greater than the value of a 7th rd pick - however small the odds of both are.

 

[tradervik]

delete

Kravstov will come back after this deal is over and he will be a changed man.

I hear he left his car in the arena parking lot.

 

[Hit the post]

Kravstov will come back after this deal is over and he will be a changed man.

I think Putin made that illegal in Russia.

 

[DarrenX]

It's method that is concerning here, not just that the 7th is a non-worthless asset. (It has a worth)

The probability of Kravstov turning into something were higher than that of a 7th round pick turning into something.

 

[CascadiaPuck]

It remains odd to me that some people flame a guy like this for not putting in time in the AHL. The window to earn as a pro athlete is really small and an injury can derail everything immediately. If I was told I wouldn’t play with the big club next year and had a chance to earn more elsewhere - and in my home country no less - any rational person makes that call. He’d be a fool not to try and at least monetize his talents at least for a few years to ensure he’s able but a house, etc. Chase fat stacks in the NHL after you’ve at least somewhat secured your future.