Prospect Info: Vitali Kravtsov: Part IX

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But aren't you basically doing the equivalent of chasing bad money after good? Is digging a deeper whole because you paid him more than you should have for longer really the right way of going about it?

I think there is a bit of a difference between a guy like Lucic or Ladd or Okposo who has been bad for years and a guy like Kreider who is just struggling recently. At the end of March he had a 2.03 points/60 with 17 goals in 35 games and yes, 48.6 CF% which is bad but still 6th best on the team amongst forwards. Lo and behold in April he has a 44.1 CF% (same as Zibanejad for last on the team) and the pucks aren't going in for him (0 5v5 points). It's a bit reactionary.
 
No.

Kravtsov got a few shifts with the Zibanejad line (including one where they scored) because Kreider was serving a fighting major.
Ok. So what? Unless you believe that Kravstov is being ruined, there is nothing wrong with the way that he is being handled. Do you believe that, much like Kakko and Lafreniere and Miller, that he is being ruined?
 
3. Guess who came to Kravtsov thread and started to shit on Quinn. At least I’m happy I don’t need to deal with Quinn ruining prospects nonsense anymore
Just wait. Kravstov has 1 point in 6 games. As he is being ruined the same way that Kakko was ruined, another few games without a point and he will be hopelessly ruined as well.
 
At some point Kreider is probably going to be moved down the lines no matter what, right?

So while that need not be right now, it kind of seems like they should be using him on the PK.
I think that it was a foregone conclusion that eventually he goes to the 3rd line, while continuing to be a net front presence on the first PP unit.
 
But aren't you basically doing the equivalent of chasing bad money after good? Is digging a deeper whole because you paid him more than you should have for longer really the right way of going about it?
If I thought that Kreider was on the decline, and that the cold patch we're seeing is due to some real, tangible deterioration of skill, then I'd agree. But, I think we're just seeing Chris Kreider being Chris Kreider, and in due time he'll get himself on a roll again like he has done for basically the last 550 games--yo-yoing back and forth between being an absolute force and mostly invisible.

I think in a few years we'll reach the point where it becomes apparent his cold patches are due to erosion of ability. We're not there yet, though, in my estimation. He looks like the same guy he has for the past few seasons who is basically a 25-25 guy.
 
If I thought that Kreider was on the decline, and that the cold patch we're seeing is due to some real, tangible deterioration of skill, then I'd agree. But, I think we're just seeing Chris Kreider being Chris Kreider, and in due time he'll get himself on a roll again like he has done for basically the last 550 games--yo-yoing back and forth between being an absolute force and mostly invisible.
Well put
 
I would keep Kreider on the top line. We don't need to overreact every time a player has a bad game, week, or couple of weeks. He hasn't been as good this year. He's not shooting as much. He has a history of doing it and I would keep him there and expect it to turn around. I would need to see a lot more bad play before deciding he should be on the 4th line. Move him down in game if it's not working? Sure. But I wouldn't start it that way. He's an important player on the team and, like the contract or not (I don't), he's going to be here for a long time so we really need him to figure it out.

Agree.

And let's look at the example of how Quinn handled another struggling vet about a month ago in Zibanejad. A lot of folks here, myself included, were asking for action from Quinn to deal with the forward who was 1C only in the name (not performance) and who was single handedly ruining the PP. Quinn acted - he sat Zibanejad for about half a period! Did I think it was enough - not even close, but whether a coincidence or not - IT WORKED.
Now Quinn needed action re. Kreider and so he demoted him to 4th line for 2 periods. Do I think it's enough? Personally - no, but I understand where Quinn is coming from so I'm willing to wait to see if it works (and as I said - Kreider was a lot more engaged and noticeable in the last game which is a positive sign).
But the bigger lesson here is that dealing with a prominent and well respected vets like Zibanejad and Kreider is a delicate thing for any organization in general and the young team like the Rangers, specifically. The youngsters look up to them and dealing too harshly with a vet who has built-up a lot of goodwill within the organization also can have its detriments on prospects.
 
Agree.

And let's look at the example of how Quinn handled another struggling vet about a month ago in Zibanejad. A lot of folks here, myself included, were asking for action from Quinn to deal with the forward who was 1C only in the name (not performance) and who was single handedly ruining the PP. Quinn acted - he sat Zibanejad for about half a period! Did I think it was enough - not even close, but whether a coincidence or not - IT WORKED.
Now Quinn needed action re. Kreider and so he demoted him to 4th line for 2 periods. Do I think it's enough? Personally - no, but I understand where Quinn is coming from so I'm willing to wait to see if it works (and as I said - Kreider was a lot more engaged and noticeable in the last game which is a positive sign).
But the bigger lesson here is that dealing with a prominent and well respected vets like Zibanejad and Kreider is a delicate thing for any organization in general and the young team like the Rangers, specifically. The youngsters look up to them and dealing too harshly with a vet who has built-up a lot of goodwill within the organization also can have its detriments on prospects.
Comparing kreider to Mika feels disingenuous.
Mika was recovering from covid, which negatively impacted his performance and conditioning.
Kreider is physically fine, was physically fine.
 
Comparing kreider to Mika feels disingenuous.
Mika was recovering from covid, which negatively impacted his performance and conditioning.
Kreider is physically fine, was physically fine.

I'm not saying Kreider has the same excuse as Zibanejad for underperforming.

I'm comparing how Quinn is dealing with underperforming (for one reason or another) vets.
 
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No.

I believe that he should be playing in Kreider's spot because he gives the team a better chance to win.
I think that making that statement based on the largely sheltered minutes from all of 5 games is a tad aggressive. Also, clearly the view of both the coaching staff and the front office is that thrusting him into such a role maybe not good for him.

And if he is not being ruined, then the answer is that he is being brought along in the right way.
 
I think that making that statement based on the largely sheltered minutes from all of 5 games is a tad aggressive. Also, clearly the view of both the coaching staff and the front office is that thrusting him into such a role maybe not good for him.

And if he is not being ruined, then the answer is that he is being brought along in the right way.

Quinn made the change for basically 2 periods on Sunday, pretty much flipped the game for them.

What I do know is that KZB isn't working and hasn't been working for a while now. If your goal is to make a run, fixing that issue should be at the top of your list.
 
Quinn made the change for basically 2 periods on Sunday, pretty much flipped the game for them.

What I do know is that KZB isn't working and hasn't been working for a while now. If your goal is to make a run, fixing that issue should be at the top of your list.
It has not been good for a while. I agree. But are we debating where Kravstov plays or whey KZB has not been taken apart? If the latter, then shouldn't you be calling for Lafreniere to be playing there? Also something that has nothing to do with Kravstov.
 
It has not been good for a while. I agree. But are we debating where Kravstov plays or whey KZB has not been taken apart? If the latter, then shouldn't you be calling for Lafreniere to be playing there? Also something that has nothing to do with Kravstov.

What are you talking about?

No I'm clearly calling for Kravtsov to play with Zibaenjad and Buchnevich.

And before you say it, he played primarily the LW in Russia this year, so no it's not out of position for him.
 
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What are you talking about?

No I'm clearly calling for Kravtsov to play with Zibaenjad and Buchnevich.

And before you say it, he played primarily the LW in Russia this year, so no it's not out of position for him.
Yes, and I am saying that why is it Kravstov and not Lafreniere?
 
Though mainly playing with Rooney and Howden the Rangers have been putting Kravtsov in different situations with different players. They often move him up. If people were tracking his time on ice they would see this:

1st game- 10:45
2nd game- 11:03
3rd game- 12:15
4th game- 12:12
5th game- 13:35
6th game- 13:56

So he’s been gradually seeing his ice time from game to game bump up (with the exception of 3 to 4 anyway) and it’s commensurate with the 3rd liners Chytil and Lafreniere who don’t see much special team time keeping in mind that in Kravtsov’s case the Rangers have only had 13 power play opportunities in the 6 games he’s played (in two of them none at all) and they’ve scored on 5 of the 13 which is a pretty damn good % and to my mind not an indictment of the coaching staff at all.

Kravtsov has played very very well in his short time here and there’s a lot to be excited about but to say he’s being misused is not accurate IMO.
 
Yes, and I am saying that why is it Kravstov and not Lafreniere?

Unless the subsequent move is to push Kravtsov to where Lafreniere was, I don't see the reason to do it. His line has been fine the last few games, I don't have any desire to break up a unit that finally looks like its working.

Plus right now, the less of Kreider we throw out there, the better.
 
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Every time I watch Kakko I want his skating and agility back. He, like Laf, clearly focused on bulking up the last two off seasons, but now I want him to have more speed to unlock the next level. I wouldn't be shocked to see Kakko bulk up over one more off season. I think the Rangers see him as a pure power forward in the future but I am not sure that's the choice I would make, I value speed and agility for the modern game. Power forwards do take a bit longer, so patience is required.

Kravtsov looks fantastic, he is another home run for the Rangers, but he also feels a lot fresher than a many of the players out on the ice atm. His skating really stands out.
When it comes to Finnish examples, I look at guys like Barkov and Rantanen. Both were pretty poor skaters, it took them one offseason to fix it. Is it this offseason for Kakko? I hope so, because his strength is already pretty good IMO. It remains to be seen. Kakko and Laf are both severely limited by their skating right now. Kravtsov could jump right in, he can keep up with the speed of the game both by skating and his skill. I still think Kakko and Lafreniere will probably become better players than Kravtsov, but this is a pretty solid 3-pack we have here.

I think the Toronto youngsters are a pretty good comparison. Will Lafreniere end up as good as Matthews? Probably not, but pretty good. Will Kakko end up as good as Marner? Maybe, but it remains to be seen. Will Kravtsov be better than Nylander? I think he will. If Laf, Kakko and Kravtsov overall become nearly as good as that trio, that's a pretty decent recipe for a future contender. We are not even talking about Shesterkin, Fox, Panarin... And how can we manage all this under the cap eventually.
 
Unless the subsequent move is to push Kravtsov to where Lafreniere was, I don't see the reason to do it. His line has been fine the last few games, I don't have any desire to break up a unit that finally looks like its working.

Plus right now, the less of Kreider we throw out there, the better.
So you believe that a rookie with 5 games of experience, who has largely been playing sheltered minutes should be promoted by a coaching staff to replace a vet (albeit a struggling one) when they are desperately trying to continue to play meaningful games? Ok. I guess. Not sure that is a realistic expectation aside from a period or two.
 
I would keep Kreider on the top line. We don't need to overreact every time a player has a bad game, week, or couple of weeks. He hasn't been as good this year. He's not shooting as much. He has a history of doing it and I would keep him there and expect it to turn around. I would need to see a lot more bad play before deciding he should be on the 4th line. Move him down in game if it's not working? Sure. But I wouldn't start it that way. He's an important player on the team and, like the contract or not (I don't), he's going to be here for a long time so we really need him to figure it out.
He leads the team in goals too, lol (I don’t want to hear about 9 of them being PP goals when everyone here has whinged incessantly about the PP), 5th in EV goals.
 
Vitali Kravtsov #74
Date - TOI
2021-04-03 - 10:45
2021-04-06 - 11:03
2021-04-08 - 12:15
2021-04-09 - 12:12
2021-04-11 - 13:35
2021-04-13 - 13:56

Now, I’m no mathematician, but I’m 99% sure that those numbers are going up...

Chris Kreider #20

Date — TOI
2021-04-03 - 18:15
2021-04-06 - 17:29
2021-04-08 - 16:32
2021-04-09 - 16:22
2021-04-11 - 15:41
2021-04-13 - 15:37

...and I’m 99% sure that these numbers are going down.

–––

DICTIONARY
Definitions from Oxford Languages
pa·tience
/ˈpāSHəns/
noun
  1. the capacity to accept or tolerate delay, trouble, or suffering without getting angry or upset.
    • "you can find bargains if you have the patience to sift through the dross"
 
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He leads the team in goals too, lol (I don’t want to hear about 9 of them being PP goals when everyone here has whinged incessantly about the PP), 5th in EV goals.

This is silly. I don't see many people that want to take Kreider off the PP, it's a legit argument when talking about EV lines.
 

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