Prospect Info: Vitali Kravtsov: Part IX

[True Blue]

You're basically saying Kravtsov who has looked 10 times better than Kreider is serving the team better on the 4th line than on Mika's line. That's why I say you're being a contrarian. That's an insane opinion.

Please point out where I said Kravstov has looked 10 times better.

Contrarian. Did you just learn a new SAT word? You seem to be using it a lot. Especially when people disagree with you.

 

[True Blue]

You can say 'Jack shit' now.

Was not as flowery

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Please point out where I said Kravstov has looked 10 times better.

Contrarian. Did you just learn a new SAT word? You seem to be using it a lot. Especially when people disagree with you.

You never said it, but he has. And also you're a prick, how about that for an SAT word?

 

[nyr2k2]

What better way to light a fire under his ass than to keep him on the 4th line for a few games?

I can understand wanting to let him play his way out of his funk if this were a one or two week thing, but it's been a month. If the goal is making the playoffs, he isn't helping at all right now and they don't have a ton of runway left to really push for a spot. I don't think force feeding Mika helped him (or the team) either, but that has more to do with what he was recovering from.

I wouldn't take Kreider off the PP. He barely touches the puck there anyway and its the only part of his game that has been productive his year.

I don't know, I don't think Kreider is the kind of player who needs a fire lit under his ass. This is just the type of player his is and always has been--the type of guy who will get on a roll and basically carry you for multiple games and then who will run cold as ice for 10 games. I don't think any amount of dropping him, benching him, scratching him, will suddenly make him be something he's never been before (consistent). If there were a way to light a fire under his ass and "get him going" or whatever then we'd have a 40-goal scorer on our hands.

my problem with Kreider is that he seems to have lost a step in his skating which allowed him to win basically every single foot race and puck battle and now he loses the majority of them, but tries to make these fancy touch plays in open ice to compensate for it. Kreider playing this way is a 3rd liner at best. It's extremely ineffective. He's still a great PP player but if he's going to continue playing this way he's already no longer a top 6 player, at least on this team.

I don't agree. I think his skating is exceptional. When he's "on" he still routinely blows by guys off the edge. Just last night they successfully executed the play with him where they slap the puck in from their defensive half and let him go beat the defender, washing out icing to create a chance. I don't see a single lost step.

At this point people defending Quinn are just being contrarians for the sake of being contrarians.

That's not true. I mean, maybe some people are, but I don't think that's the case for most. Like in my defense of Quinn's handling of Kreider, I took a shot at him for how he has always used Howden. Quinn does a number of things I don't like, and I point those things out all the time. But, that doesn't mean I will just criticize everything he does. I happen to think he's doing what most coaches would do in his position. I can also hold the position that he should keep Kreider where he is, but also find ways to get Kravtsov more TOI.

There are also several people here who are more deferential to coaches than others. More trusting that they know what they're doing. Before you hit me with "Appeal to authority! Logical fallacy!", I'm not saying we should blindly agree with coaches. Not at all. Just that, I think some people--like 99% of Rangers twitter--literally think they could do a better job than every coach we've ever had, and it's absurd.

I'm not being a contrarian. I dislike some things that the guy does but also understand and agree with some other things he does that others don't like.

 

[True Blue]

You never said it, but he has. And also you're a prick, how about that for an SAT word?

SAT because you need to understand your tenses. When you respond to me and say that "YOU' said something, that is quite different than saying that "HE" said something. And while we are at it, why are we applying what HE said to what I am saying?

FYI, the word prick is not often used on the SAT like you are attempting to use it. Where it used is as a verb. For example, your arguments are being pricked through. Which is to say that they are failing.

 

[sdf]

Krafstov>Kravtsov

 

[SA16]

I would keep Kreider on the top line. We don't need to overreact every time a player has a bad game, week, or couple of weeks. He hasn't been as good this year. He's not shooting as much. He has a history of doing it and I would keep him there and expect it to turn around. I would need to see a lot more bad play before deciding he should be on the 4th line. Move him down in game if it's not working? Sure. But I wouldn't start it that way. He's an important player on the team and, like the contract or not (I don't), he's going to be here for a long time so we really need him to figure it out.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I would keep Kreider on the top line. We don't need to overreact every time a player has a bad game, week, or couple of weeks. He hasn't been as good this year. He's not shooting as much. He has a history of doing it and I would keep him there and expect it to turn around. I would need to see a lot more bad play before deciding he should be on the 4th line. Move him down in game if it's not working? Sure. But I wouldn't start it that way. He's an important player on the team and, like the contract or not (I don't), he's going to be here for a long time so we really need him to figure it out.

The kreider in the first 5 minutes of last nights game was the ck we want to see if he’s not scoring. Engaged, hits, separates guys from the puck.
That was gone after the fight.
I agree that kreider is who he is, but that doesn’t mean leave him in that same spot. I’m not moving him to light a fire on him, but to reward a kid who’s clearly outplaying him.

 

[SA16]

The kreider in the first 5 minutes of last nights game was the ck we want to see if he’s not scoring. Engaged, hits, separates guys from the puck.
That was gone after the fight.
I agree that kreider is who he is, but that doesn’t mean leave him in that same spot. I’m not moving him to light a fire on him, but to reward a kid who’s clearly outplaying him.

You can easily do both in the same game. Kreider can skip a shift and Kravtsov can take a shift there. The lines don't have to be so rigid.

 

[True Blue]

You can easily do both in the same game. Kreider can skip a shift and Kravtsov can take a shift there. The lines don't have to be so rigid.

I could be wrong, but isn't that what did happen last night?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I would keep Kreider on the top line. We don't need to overreact every time a player has a bad game, week, or couple of weeks. He hasn't been as good this year. He's not shooting as much. He has a history of doing it and I would keep him there and expect it to turn around. I would need to see a lot more bad play before deciding he should be on the 4th line. Move him down in game if it's not working? Sure. But I wouldn't start it that way. He's an important player on the team and, like the contract or not (I don't), he's going to be here for a long time so we really need him to figure it out.

It hasn't been a bad game, week or a few weeks.

It's been a bad month. And this isn't just about production (which over the last month hasn't been great, but has been better than his actual on ice play has been), it's about doing all of the other things that make him an effective player - those things have not been there often enough this year and for the most part, have been completely MIA since basically Panarin returned.

I will live with the ups and downs with his production since thats who hes always been, no one should tolerate the rest of his game going to complete shit and then fall back on "hey... it hasn't been long enough to really make a change!" Yes it has been.

 

[duhmetreE]

Some Sergei Federov-lite vibes.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I could be wrong, but isn't that what did happen last night?

No.

Kravtsov got a few shifts with the Zibanejad line (including one where they scored) because Kreider was serving a fighting major.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I would keep Kreider on the top line. We don't need to overreact every time a player has a bad game, week, or couple of weeks. He hasn't been as good this year. He's not shooting as much. He has a history of doing it and I would keep him there and expect it to turn around. I would need to see a lot more bad play before deciding he should be on the 4th line. Move him down in game if it's not working? Sure. But I wouldn't start it that way. He's an important player on the team and, like the contract or not (I don't), he's going to be here for a long time so we really need him to figure it out.

Alternatively, you could mix up the lines and put Kreider with Strome who he has played his best hockey with this season, trusting (as I think it wise to do) that Panarin will still be Panarin without Strome as his center.

 

[CLW]

Both very exciting but different imo. Kakkos ability to win puck battles and maintain possession is just nuts

Every time I watch Kakko I want his skating and agility back. He, like Laf, clearly focused on bulking up the last two off seasons, but now I want him to have more speed to unlock the next level. I wouldn't be shocked to see Kakko bulk up over one more off season. I think the Rangers see him as a pure power forward in the future but I am not sure that's the choice I would make, I value speed and agility for the modern game. Power forwards do take a bit longer, so patience is required.

Kravtsov looks fantastic, he is another home run for the Rangers, but he also feels a lot fresher than a many of the players out on the ice atm. His skating really stands out.

 

[haveandare]

Every time I watch Kakko I want his skating and agility back. He, like Laf, clearly focused on bulking up the last two off seasons, but now I want him to have more speed to unlock the next level. I wouldn't be shocked to see Kakko bulk up over one more off season. I think the Rangers see him as a pure power forward in the future but I am not sure that's the choice I would make, I value speed and agility for the modern game. Power forwards do take a bit longer, so patience is required.

Kravtsov looks fantastic, he is another home run for the Rangers, but he also feels a lot fresher than a many of the players out on the ice atm. His skating really stands out.

There’s always some balance of strength and speed. I think he could focus on speed more for sure, but imo his true elite skill is his ability to win battles and hold on to the puck in impossible situations. I think he’s been distributing the puck with more confidence this year, but he needs to also feel confident taking it to the net himself, which could be a speed thing or not trusting his shot enough.

Either way he’s still a raw young player and he has time to improve in multiple ways, but his puck protection skills are already sick for a kid his age.

 

[Off Sides]

Kreider has been taking the puck behind the other teams net way too often on his rushes. Needs to make the defender covering him make an actual play to stop him from going to the net rather than just going around it on his own. Same thing everyone wants from Gauthier who was actually doing that, right before he was scratched forever.

 

[kovazub94]

Playing Kravstov on the 4th line like the Wings did with their guys would be fine if we were loaded at forward like those Wings were. They had like two lines worth of hall of fame players. We don't have that. We have a Kreider who smokes ass right now and shouldn't be anywhere near a top 6.

But it goes beyond Kreider. Kravtsov has been arguably our best forward over the last 3 games (and I don't think its an argument, he flat out has been.) Limiting his ice time doesn't make sense.



Shits also true.

If you're trying to make a run, it makes sense to play the guys who are going. Unless of course, you like making life harder for yourself and increasing the chances that you don't win.


Take this for example, the Rangers got their asses handed to them by the Islanders in the 1st period on Sunday. They actually took the game over for most of the last 2 periods after Quinn swapped Kravtsov for Kreider. Quinn throws Kreider back with Mika (this was 4v4) because he's a "trusty vet" and Kreider immediately almost costs them the game in regulation.... Before blowing his assignment in OT which led to a high danger chance against and the FO that eventually led to the winning goal against.

This is the lack of feel for the game and poor bench management that some of us have been talking about. This isn't an isolated incident either, this has been a Quinn thing all year long.

You know for someone who doesn't really care about Quinn, you spend A LOT of time in basically every thread defending him lol.

But back to Kravtsov...

Not going to respond with a novel in return. Here’s a couple of key notes:

1. No team consistently maintains the same level for 60 min and I’d rather have a team that plays better than opponent in the 2nd and 3rd than vice versa

2. Kravtsov is still a rookie of all of 5 games and I’d definitely prefer a cautionary approach even if he’s been outstanding so far (and btw Kreider’s been better this last game than in the stretch before)

3. Guess who came to Kravtsov thread and started to shit on Quinn. At least I’m happy I don’t need to deal with Quinn ruining prospects nonsense anymore

 

[CLW]

There’s always some balance of strength and speed. I think he could focus on speed more for sure, but imo his true elite skill is his ability to win battles and hold on to the puck in impossible situations. I think he’s been distributing the puck with more confidence this year, but he needs to also feel confident taking it to the net himself, which could be a speed thing or not trusting his shot enough.

Either way he’s still a raw young player and he has time to improve in multiple ways, but his puck protection skills are already sick for a kid his age.

I agree that his puck protection and board play is already impressive, in that sense I don't feel he needs to build more on those than what will come naturally with more strength and experience over the next few seasons. The two areas he needs to improve the most atm (imo) is separation speed and confidence in front of goal. His shot is ok, it's more that he is still overprocessing situations rather than go with his instincts, you can see how he analyzes the situation when he gets an opportunity - Pass/Shoot/Deke - and it ends up beings something in between. Once he relaxes and has a bit more experience he will be fine.

Skating will also help him move between D and offense much quicker, as we see with Kravtsov.

Edit: As an example Kakko had one very good shot just above the goalies pad and below the blocker, but the Devils keeper made a great save. Ovechkin scored with that exact shot, the difference is that Ovi shot much quicker and further out so the goalie didn't have time to set himself up. Kakko's hesitation between options gave the Devils keeper the the time he needed to make the save. We've seen that quite a few times this season.

 

[NYR Viper]

my problem with Kreider is that he seems to have lost a step in his skating which allowed him to win basically every single foot race and puck battle and now he loses the majority of them, but tries to make these fancy touch plays in open ice to compensate for it. Kreider playing this way is a 3rd liner at best. It's extremely ineffective. He's still a great PP player but if he's going to continue playing this way he's already no longer a top 6 player, at least on this team.

He hasn't lost a step, this is the way he plays when he is off his game. When he plays a North-South game and keeps it simple he is effective. When he plays tentative and tries to make cute plays he isn't. That goes back to college. It's always been the same.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Not going to respond with a novel in return. Here’s a couple of key notes:

1. No team consistently maintains the same level for 60 min and I’d rather have a team that plays better than opponent in the 2nd and 3rd than vice versa

2. Kravtsov is still a rookie of all of 5 games and I’d definitely prefer a cautionary approach even if he’s been outstanding so far (and btw Kreider’s been better this last game than in the stretch before)

3. Guess who came to Kravtsov thread and started to shit on Quinn. At least I’m happy I don’t need to deal with Quinn ruining prospects nonsense anymore

1. The flip in that teams play came AFTER the change. Im sure that having a top line that could actually do positive things had an impact.

2. Kreider being better yesterday than he was the stretch before (and I don't even agree with this, it was more of the same) is like saying you lost a foot instead of the entire leg. Guess what though? Kravtsov was still miles better than Kreider yesterday, that lines lone goal came with Kravstov on the ice.

3. I think complaining about a player's usage, regardless of experience, when hes been a force in leiu of an underperforming veteran who has sucked for for a while now is a valid post to make in this thread. You don't need to respond to the bat signal every time it goes off lol.

 

[duhmetreE]

He's been our best player and our best forechecker.

KZB have a patented 'fugazi forecheck' since Quinn came back from covid. It's bad. This was their strength. A relentless forecheck/puck retrieval. KZB has been getting pinned too.

Kravtsov is the best option for the top6, right now. Play your 'hot hands' ( we did that in the 2nd period against the Isles... then reverted back ). Stop being out of touch and stop over analyzing it.

I would say put him on the PP as well but we're not skating/moving well enough to create PPs lately.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

He hasn't lost a step, this is the way he plays when he is off his game. When he plays a North-South game and keeps it simple he is effective. When he plays tentative and tries to make cute plays he isn't. That goes back to college. It's always been the same.

This... well kind of.

I don't even think he's trying to play a cute game, he's just avoided doing all of the more "grindy" things in his game for the most part. And its not like it hasn't been there at all this year, it was there when he was playing well and it even showed up for a shift on Sunday, so I've seen it recently.

He's also been very "floaty" all over the ice, especially in his own zone when he doesn't have the puck.

 

[SA16]

It hasn't been a bad game, week or a few weeks.

It's been a bad month. And this isn't just about production (which over the last month hasn't been great, but has been better than his actual on ice play has been), it's about doing all of the other things that make him an effective player - those things have not been there often enough this year and for the most part, have been completely MIA since basically Panarin returned.

I will live with the ups and downs with his production since thats who hes always been, no one should tolerate the rest of his game going to complete shit and then fall back on "hey... it hasn't been long enough to really make a change!" Yes it has been.

Yea, and I'm fine sticking with it. Demoting him to the 4th line is how you turn an asset into Jeff Skinner. Plays bad to start the year -> gets demoted -> plays with bad players -> doesn't produce -> doesn't get promoted because he's not producing with bad players. He has six more years left on his deal. It's extremely important to keep him in a position to succeed and hope he gets there or else you turn him into a Skinner/Lucic type situation. I would argue Kreider, with his contract, is more important to the teams success in the near future (next 5ish years) than Kravtsov. If Kravtsov doesn't work out, ok, you drafted a bust - it happens - you can trade him for a mid round pick or whatever. If Kreider completely falls off and can't recover you have a 6.5M anchor on the books for years.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Yea, and I'm fine sticking with it. Demoting him to the 4th line is how you turn an asset into Jeff Skinner. Plays bad to start the year -> gets demoted -> plays with bad players -> doesn't produce -> doesn't get promoted because he's not producing with bad players. He has six more years left on his deal. It's extremely important to keep him in a position to succeed and hope he gets there or else you turn him into a Skinner/Lucic type situation. I would argue Kreider, with his contract, is more important to the teams success in the near future (next 5ish years) than Kravtsov. If Kravtsov doesn't work out, ok, you drafted a bust - it happens - you can trade him for a mid round pick or whatever. If Kreider completely falls off and can't recover you have a 6.5M anchor on the books for years.

But aren't you basically doing the equivalent of chasing bad money after good? Is digging a deeper whole because you paid him more than you should have for longer really the right way of going about it?