Player Discussion Vincent Trocheck

[bleedblue94]

The Cap is going up … don’t worry about things that don’t exist ; yet.

Chris Kreider could wind up in LA on draft day .

The cap going up a few mil isn't fixing what's coming, and soon. Don't be naive. These players want to get paid, they aren't taking cuts to help gms.

There is a case to be made for Miller-Fox... Really more so because of Trouba...

Lindgren plays low event hockey, Trouba is like the very definition of a high event player (Everyone gets scoring chances.) Pairing the 2 of them may help bring some of the craziness down when Trouba is out there.

Meanwhile, Key's defensive metrics are pretty sparkling away from Trouba and he would easily tilt the ice the other way with Fox which is where you really want AF to play since its where he shines the most.

If Lindgren were better in transition, I would probably push for this to happen more. Assuming Jones makes the team we would have at the very least 3 capable puck movers on the defense with one being on each pair.



That sounds like a Pittsburgh problem.

And before anyone says it Jarry isn't that guy either. Peep his numbers in the 2nd half before he got hurt, he was dreadful.

If Lindy and trouba are paired together you have built a 2nd pair that can't skate the puck out of trouble while putting the two guys that can get the puck out cleanly together. It's not a good idea. Fox's transition helps Lindy and Miller's athleticism and explosiveness helps offset trouba's lack of finesse and escapability.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The cap going up a few mil isn't fixing what's coming, and soon. Don't be naive. These players want to get paid, they aren't taking cuts to help gms.


If Lindy and trouba are paired together you have built a 2nd pair that can't skate the puck out of trouble while putting the two guys that can get the puck out cleanly together. It's not a good idea. Fox's transition helps Lindy and Miller's athleticism and explosiveness helps offset trouba's lack of finesse and escapability.

Yeah this is probably why I wouldn't do it, though Trouba's probably a bit underrated as a puck mover. He had above average numbers here last year while really carrying the load on that pair during the regular season (don't ask me why this was the case because I don't have an answer for that.) This flipped in the playoffs as Key was allowed to (or started to) skate the puck out himself with more regularity.

 

[bleedblue94]

Yeah this is probably why I wouldn't do it, though Trouba's probably a bit underrated as a puck mover. He had above average numbers here last year while really carrying the load on that pair during the regular season (don't ask me why this was the case because I don't have an answer for that.) This flipped in the playoffs as Key was allowed to (or started to) skate the puck out himself with more regularity.

I think a lot of it was Miller just trying to stay within himself and play the easy game and then when the team needed a push he stepped outside of that comfort zone and realized he can do a lot more at this level. In some ways it reminder me of Brady skjei in that series against Montreal where his skating and tools looked dominant as you galloped the puck up the ice all playoffs. Thankfully I don't see any chance of Miller following in skjei's disappointments after that playoffs. I keep saying this but Miller is the closest thing we have ever had to a d man with the tools of hedman. He won't be hedman but if his offense continues to come he can be hedman lite with his skating, strength, and just general ability to impact the game.

 

[Zarao71]

Bye Blais.

But more likely a vet is gone. Trouba would have been the smartest move but at this point it’s way more likely to be Goodrow. Kreider a potential dark horse. He can return assets and we have young wingers to replace him.

So we traded Pavel Buchnevich a bonafide top 6 winger who signed for one of the best deals in the league.
We get maybe 1 year of Sammy Blais and one of two 2nd round picks used to obtain Andrew Copp for a couple months.

 

[mas0764]

So we traded Pavel Buchnevich a bonafide top 6 winger who signed for one of the best deals in the league.
We get maybe 1 year of Sammy Blais and one of two 2nd round picks used to obtain Andrew Copp for a couple months.

Yeah that Buch trade was an F-.

 

[Zarao71]

Yeah that Buch trade was an F-.

We take a borderline 2nd/3rd round pick plus a 3rd line often injured "niche" winger. They get a team controlled RFA top 6 winger trending up like a mofo. To pour salt on the wound he signs a sweet heart deal and kills it in the playoffs. We give Winnipeg 2-2nds and a fifth and Morgan Barron for 2 months of a UFA who spent the majority of his career on the 3rd line. We got rolled hard.

 

[bhamill]

Every part of the post is rosey glasses. History has taught us it doesn't play out that way. Goodrow's 3.6 isn't fixing the issues that are looming. Ltir is going to become the new safe word on this board within the next 3 years.

Rosey? Nah, it’s just not doomsday. Their ages, the years their contracts are up and the outs in those contracts are all cold hard fact. And the fact of the matter is if one or two besides Panarin somehow fall off a cliff their contracts are moveable (especially with expected cap increases), if injury ends a player it’s LTIR. You’re entitled to a gloom and doom outlook, but the odds are against ALL of these guys simultaneously declining catastrophically in the next few years And the only one we are stuck with, short of buyout, is Panarin.

 

[Zarao71]

Rosey? Nah, it’s just not doomsday. Their ages, the years their contracts are up and the outs in those contracts are all cold hard fact. And the fact of the matter is if one or two besides Panarin somehow fall off a cliff their contracts are moveable (especially with expected cap increases), if injury ends a player it’s LTIR. You’re entitled to a gloom and doom outlook, but the odds are against ALL of these guys simultaneously declining catastrophically in the next few years And the only one we are stuck with, short of buyout, is Panarin.

We are blessed to have these problems. The Rangers Org may not have a lot of success drafting big talent.
At the same time I think you'd be hard pressed to name many they've let get away. I'm fairly confident we gonna be OK. Off the top of my head Zubov is the one that hurts the most. Obviously, didn't like the return for Buch either.

 

[bleedblue94]

Rosey? Nah, it’s just not doomsday. Their ages, the years their contracts are up and the outs in those contracts are all cold hard fact. And the fact of the matter is if one or two besides Panarin somehow fall off a cliff their contracts are moveable (especially with expected cap increases), if injury ends a player it’s LTIR. You’re entitled to a gloom and doom outlook, but the odds are against ALL of these guys simultaneously declining catastrophically in the next few years And the only one we are stuck with, short of buyout, is Panarin.

I never suggested they all 4 would simultaneously tank out.

And panarin's contract is virtually buyout proof bc it's almost all signing bonus money, so you're not getting any relief there...

 

[bhamill]

We are blessed to have these problems. The Rangers Org may not have a lot of success drafting big talent.
At the same time I think you'd be hard pressed to name many they've let get away. I'm fairly confident we gonna be OK. Off the top of my head Zubov is the one that hurts the most. Obviously, didn't like the return for Buch either.

It is what is… a Cap World. Even if you draft big talent you have to eventually give them a big contract if you want to keep them past 26… you will not win without some of this stress. Just the reality of it.

 

[bhamill]

I never suggested they all 4 would simultaneously tank out.

And panarin's contract is virtually buyout proof bc it's almost all signing bonus money, so you're not getting any relief there...

Well if they don’t all tank out at once we can deal with it. The contracts are moveable. RIGHT NOW, with a flat cap it would be a nightmare, this year and maybe next that would be an issue. But ‘24 (and maybe even next year) there will be relief.
I’m just saying that this the way of things if you want to win in a cap world. Along with not going heavy on trading picks and prospects for rentals: you need a flow of ELCs and guys on RFA contracts to be able to afford your vets. And sure, it could all go terribly wrong, just like it could all go perfectly, neither is likely. I just think looking at the specifics of the contracts and players, the only one that might be REALLY problematic is Panarin. But even with a substandard year he hit 92 points. I understand giving that type of player the type of contract he got.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Buyer's remorse? Maybe should have re-signed Strome?

Shouldn’t have trade Bozo Miller!

 

[ecemleafs]

do you doom and gloomers ever just wear urselves out worrying about the cap in 5 years and worrying about veterans play in a f***ing preseason game?

 

[bleedblue94]

Well if they don’t all tank out at once we can deal with it. The contracts are moveable. RIGHT NOW, with a flat cap it would be a nightmare, this year and maybe next that would be an issue. But ‘24 (and maybe even next year) there will be relief.
I’m just saying that this the way of things if you want to win in a cap world. Along with not going heavy on trading picks and prospects for rentals: you need a flow of ELCs and guys on RFA contracts to be able to afford your vets. And sure, it could all go terribly wrong, just like it could all go perfectly, neither is likely. I just think looking at the specifics of the contracts and players, the only one that might be REALLY problematic is Panarin. But even with a substandard year he hit 92 points. I understand giving that type of player the type of contract he got.

See but here's my problem, other teams are going to use the cap bump as benefit, as a way to get better and be able to sign new players to make their teams better. We're already planning that the cap bump for us is just going to be able to allow us to keep our bad contracts. That's my problem. Do you think that the young players that we have that are eyeballing that cap bump to be able to make some real money are going to stay in line to take lesser dollars because we don't have as much space to pay them because we're using the cap bump to manage not so great contracts? I don't understand why they would commit to that and deal with that just to do us a favor. Meanwhile you're going to have other teams out there paying their young players More money than in the past when they are coming out of ELC is or bridge deals, But NYR is going to keep paying at the same rate as the last decade because they need to use up the cap bump space for these questionable contracts?

I need this point earlier, after the cap bump players are not going to sit there and be staying in line with the same general dollar amounts they signed for prior to the bump, they and their agents are going to be targeting similar percentages of the cap for their contracts, not similar dollars. That is a huge difference that too many people are skipping over here. Your 2.1 or 2.3 bridge deals or suddenly going to become more like 3 million bridge deals for 2 years on marginal players (yes I'm talking about kakko and chytil), And what might have been a 3 to 4 million bridge deal for guys like laffy and miller is suddenly jumping to 5 after the bump. $10 million over 2 years really isn't that much money and that much flexibility. It's going to get eaten up really quickly, so it's kind of silly to rely on that to be the cushion

 

[kovazub94]

So we traded Pavel Buchnevich a bonafide top 6 winger who signed for one of the best deals in the league.
We get maybe 1 year of Sammy Blais and one of two 2nd round picks used to obtain Andrew Copp for a couple months.

Please explain how's this relevant to Trocheck thread? TBF there're other discussions in here that are just as irrelevant.

 

[Lion Hound]

I like how players on the team addressed Trocheck in the pregame. I think it was Goodrow that said...Thank God we don't have to play against that guy this season. Those are high praises.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I like how players on the team addressed Trocheck in the pregame. I think it was Goodrow that said...Thank God we don't have to play against that guy this season. Those are high praises.

Unfortunately it's just fluff because everyone said the same thing about Goodrow last year. However I'm not concerned about Trochek, i think he's gonna fit in nice here, extra speed on that line will certainly help.

 

[bhamill]

See but here's my problem, other teams are going to use the cap bump as benefit, as a way to get better and be able to sign new players to make their teams better. We're already planning that the cap bump for us is just going to be able to allow us to keep our bad contracts. That's my problem. Do you think that the young players that we have that are eyeballing that cap bump to be able to make some real money are going to stay in line to take lesser dollars because we don't have as much space to pay them because we're using the cap bump to manage not so great contracts? I don't understand why they would commit to that and deal with that just to do us a favor. Meanwhile you're going to have other teams out there paying their young players More money than in the past when they are coming out of ELC is or bridge deals, But NYR is going to keep paying at the same rate as the last decade because they need to use up the cap bump space for these questionable contracts?

I need this point earlier, after the cap bump players are not going to sit there and be staying in line with the same general dollar amounts they signed for prior to the bump, they and their agents are going to be targeting similar percentages of the cap for their contracts, not similar dollars. That is a huge difference that too many people are skipping over here. Your 2.1 or 2.3 bridge deals or suddenly going to become more like 3 million bridge deals for 2 years on marginal players (yes I'm talking about kakko and chytil), And what might have been a 3 to 4 million bridge deal for guys like laffy and miller is suddenly jumping to 5 after the bump. $10 million over 2 years really isn't that much money and that much flexibility. It's going to get eaten up really quickly, so it's kind of silly to rely on that to be the cushion

Well, my take is NOT that we will use the bump to keep our "bad contracts." I'm saying the bump will make them less bad in relation, especially if the players don't nosedive, and thus easier to move if we want.
I'm not sure where you get the notion that I think NYR are not going to have to pay our bridge players at the same relative rate as other teams. One advantage we DO have is that our vets are already signed at a lower (future) cap percentage. Trocheck for instance would have cost more if not for the flat cap. In two years, perhaps even next, he will be a "bargain." Will we try to re-sign any of these vets at their deal's ends? Who knows? But the fact that we already have the most expensive vet contracts out of the way at a lower relative chunk of the upcoming cap means we will be in a good position to pay our emerging players/stars.
Again, yeah, it could all go to shit, we ARE the NYR after all hahaha, but realistically it doesn't look bad to me. We will find out with time, that's for sure, buddy.

 

[bleedblue94]

Well, my take is NOT that we will use the bump to keep our "bad contracts." I'm saying the bump will make them less bad in relation, especially if the players don't nosedive, and thus easier to move if we want.
I'm not sure where you get the notion that I think NYR are not going to have to pay our bridge players at the same relative rate as other teams. One advantage we DO have is that our vets are already signed at a lower (future) cap percentage. Trocheck for instance would have cost more if not for the flat cap. In two years, perhaps even next, he will be a "bargain." Will we try to re-sign any of these vets at their deal's ends? Who knows? But the fact that we already have the most expensive vet contracts out of the way at a lower relative chunk of the upcoming cap means we will be in a good position to pay our emerging players/stars.
Again, yeah, it could all go to shit, we ARE the NYR after all hahaha, but realistically it doesn't look bad to me. We will find out with time, that's for sure, buddy.

I thought we agreed to move on from this argument and just cheer for the team, then you replied to a comment I made to someone else. You need restraint haha

 

[bhamill]

I thought we agreed to move on from this argument and just cheer for the team, then you replied to a comment I made to someone else. You need restraint haha

Ahahaha. THAT I cannot argue with you! Though I may have responded without full cognizance at first that it was YOU.

 

[will1066]

do you doom and gloomers ever just wear urselves out worrying about the cap in 5 years and worrying about veterans play in a f***ing preseason game?

They work in the finance industry. They can't help themselves. Their household budgets are tip-top shape, though.

 

[bleedblue94]

Ahahaha. THAT I cannot argue with you! Though I may have responded without full cognizance at first that it was YOU.

needs to be an alarm that it is me and it is not a safe zone.

do you doom and gloomers ever just wear urselves out worrying about the cap in 5 years and worrying about veterans play in a f***ing preseason game?

not worried about his play in the preseason, thought people loving the signing this summer and criticizing it after last night looked foolish. I have had this stance since the contract terms came out. Last night had nothing to do with it.

 

[ElLeetch]

do you doom and gloomers ever just wear urselves out worrying about the cap in 5 years and worrying about veterans play in a f***ing preseason game?

The worst thing to ever happen to sports is salary caps. It made everyone care about owner finances and not on actual player quality. It completely changed how fans see the game.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

So we traded Pavel Buchnevich a bonafide top 6 winger who signed for one of the best deals in the league.
We get maybe 1 year of Sammy Blais and one of two 2nd round picks used to obtain Andrew Copp for a couple months.

Let's not stop here. Let's go back to Miller and Ridley for Bobby Carpenter. Just as fertile and timely ground at this point.

Oh—Vincent Trocheck (now on topic).

 

[Thirty One]

Oh—Vincent Trocheck (now on topic).

Was anyone else a little disappointed in his tan? I mean, it was solid, but not what you're expecting when you're signing Vinny Trocheck.