OT: Video Game Talk (oh, also the Week before the All-Star Break Pre-Game Talk "archive")

[expatriatedtexan]

The simply put, you’ll be relegated to PC gaming. 60fps isn’t holding in this generation, let alone basically on a tablet from 2014.

And if you want 60+ fps in 4K, that PC is not going to be inexpensive either.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Just play indies. Go play Dungeons of Hinterberg.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Just play indies. Go play Dungeons of Hinterberg.

I have no idea if the game was ever released for real, but I bought one of those dirt cheap early access game on Steam called Wolcen that I really enjoyed. It's a hack and slash dungeon crawler with what I felt was one of the best skill trees and true customization of fight style around.

Graphically, I doubt it would ever get up to a AAA title level, but it was pretty great for what it was.

 

[missionAvs]

Titan Quest 2 is the ARPG I'm looking forward to the most.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

What is the actual difference between RPGs, ARPGs and JRPGs? I have no idea what the A stands for but believe the J is for junior, but still have no idea how that would be different than an RPG.

 

[sethro109]

What is the actual difference between RPGs, ARPGs and JRPGs? I have no idea what the A stands for but believe the J is for junior, but still have no idea how that would be different than an RPG.

ARPG is a action RPG. Most RPGs back I the day were turn based, that's how it came about. JRPG is for Japanese RPG. JRPGs usually have a different feel and vibe than other RPGs, and they were obviously made in Japan.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

ARPG is a action RPG. Most RPGs back I the day were turn based, that's how it came about. JRPG is for Japanese RPG. JRPGs usually have a different feel and vibe than other RPGs, and they were obviously made in Japan.

Many thanks! I've actually played something in each category (if FFIX is considered JRPG) but to me, they were all just RPG games.

 

[sethro109]

Many thanks! I've actually played something in each category (if FFIX is considered JRPG) but to me, they were all just RPG games.

I never played 9. I always thought the character models looked weird.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

The simply put, you’ll be relegated to PC gaming. 60fps isn’t holding in this generation, let alone basically on a tablet from 2014.

PC & PS5 for me. Basically nothing on the PS5 has been relegated to 30fps this generation, can’t think of any examples that really suffered other than Dragons Dogma 2 and FF16 which both are a mess with unlocked unstable fps. Also, Baldurs Gate 3 and its final act tanks the performance.

Simply put if your game is not running 60 fps or close to it so far, something has gone wrong with the optimization. Less than 1% of the thousands of games released on PS5 are locked 30, and many of the titles with questionable performance also run poorly on PC.

So its definitely not like you said that 30 fps is the norm, unless you are a Switch user. Don’t know about Xbox, haven’t touched it.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

I never played 9. I always thought the character models looked weird.

Yeah, it was my first FF game. In fact, I haven't played any others...other than a bits and pieces of the Kindom Hearts crossover games when my wife was playing through those. I'm not sure how different they are from the other FF games, but for me Vivi was the reason to play. The little black mage dude is just an absolute silent legend.

 

[henchman21]

PC & PS5 for me. Basically nothing on the PS5 has been relegated to 30fps this generation, can’t think of any examples that really suffered other than Dragons Dogma 2 and FF16 which both are a mess with unlocked unstable fps. Also, Baldurs Gate 3 and its final act tanks the performance.

Simply put if your game is not running 60 fps or close to it so far, something has gone wrong with the optimization. Less than 1% of the thousands of games released on PS5 are locked 30, and many of the titles with questionable performance also run poorly on PC.

So its definitely not like you said that 30 fps is the norm, unless you are a Switch user. Don’t know about Xbox, haven’t touched it.

Lacking some major context on PS5. First, performance modes exists on most game, but that doesn't make the performance modes any good. FF7 Rebirth, even after patches, the PS5 performance mode struggles to hit 50 fps in any semi intensive area. Unless you have a VRR TV, it is jarring. We also have games coming out that are targeting 720p (or less) internal resolution and utilizing different upscale techniques to get them to 1080-1440p. The effectiveness of those techniques varies quite a bit. Hardly any games of the last year or two take advantage of any ray tracing if performance modes are applied. Alan Wake 2 also has a very clear stark contrast between the modes. Performance mode targets (doesn't hold fully, especially on PS5) 60 fps, but every setting is dropped heavily. It targets 847p (and drops below), the ground suddenly makes the PNW look like mountains in NM, shadows drop at about half the draw distance, and the textures take a huge hit.

Probably bigger that this though, is we have had the longest run of cross generation that we have ever had. We have games still coming out today that are coming out on PS4. A 10 year old console still getting new releases. For 9th gen only games (I consider Switch to be its own thing and out of this race... so PS5/XS), we're still at less than 100 games... and a number of those are remakes of older games packaged up to sell again. When we move away from the 8th gen, we will see more of it... or at least very compromised performance modes like FF7 Rebirth.

Even with this, we see the future of 30 fps (with maybe token 60 fps modes like AW2) coming down the pipeline. There is only so much compute in these boxes and UE5 is too taxing to have anything but a bare bones experience at 60FPS with the current hardware. It is possible that when the cross gen finally finishes, that we'll have new hardware to keep 60FPS (10th gen is probably 2027, so only 3 years away). So it may hold... but if maximizing these boxes are it, 30FPS is going to make a comeback.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

I can't think of a single game that has benefited from Ray Tracing. Sure, it can make some things look better in hype scenes and demos, but nowhere near good enough to be worth the sacrifice in performance it costs.

To me, RTX seems like a poorly optimized solution looking for a problem to fix.

 

[henchman21]

I can't think of a single game that has benefited from Ray Tracing. Sure, it can make some things look better in hype scenes and demos, but nowhere near good enough to be worth the sacrifice in performance it costs.

To me, RTX seems like a poorly optimized solution looking for a problem to fix.

There are games where the difference is pretty clear, but as a whole, I'm not really sure if it is worth the compute cost right now. I'd argue resolution is the same. Sure you can see a difference between true 4k and 1200p... but is it really worth the extra cost?

One of the issues in the industry is that lifelike graphics and screenshots sell. The next Naughty Dog game is going to look beautiful and will probably have some of the best graphics upto that point. It will be a 30fps game with all sorts of cool tricks to get there. Then less than a year later, the PS6 will come out and they'll port that over as a 60 fps game. Both will cost you $70.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Lacking some major context on PS5. First, performance modes exists on most game, but that doesn't make the performance modes any good. FF7 Rebirth, even after patches, the PS5 performance mode struggles to hit 50 fps in any semi intensive area. Unless you have a VRR TV, it is jarring. We also have games coming out that are targeting 720p (or less) internal resolution and utilizing different upscale techniques to get them to 1080-1440p. The effectiveness of those techniques varies quite a bit. Hardly any games of the last year or two take advantage of any ray tracing if performance modes are applied. Alan Wake 2 also has a very clear stark contrast between the modes. Performance mode targets (doesn't hold fully, especially on PS5) 60 fps, but every setting is dropped heavily. It targets 847p (and drops below), the ground suddenly makes the PNW look like mountains in NM, shadows drop at about half the draw distance, and the textures take a huge hit.

Probably bigger that this though, is we have had the longest run of cross generation that we have ever had. We have games still coming out today that are coming out on PS4. A 10 year old console still getting new releases. For 9th gen only games (I consider Switch to be its own thing and out of this race... so PS5/XS), we're still at less than 100 games... and a number of those are remakes of older games packaged up to sell again. When we move away from the 8th gen, we will see more of it... or at least very compromised performance modes like FF7 Rebirth.

Even with this, we see the future of 30 fps (with maybe token 60 fps modes like AW2) coming down the pipeline. There is only so much compute in these boxes and UE5 is too taxing to have anything but a bare bones experience at 60FPS with the current hardware. It is possible that when the cross gen finally finishes, that we'll have new hardware to keep 60FPS (10th gen is probably 2027, so only 3 years away). So it may hold... but if maximizing these boxes are it, 30FPS is going to make a comeback.

Sure, I have no doubts 30 fps will make some sort of a comeback. However, so far it has not at least on the PS5. I do use VRR though so games that might run sluggishly run well enough on the performance mode.

I do think releasing your game now with locked 30 fps on the current gen hardware is a mistake. The graphical compromises that you have to make are well worth doubling the framerate, the difference is really not that much at this point. Even new realeases that do come out with a locked 30 fps get a ton of crap from the potential customers.

 

[henchman21]

Sure, I have no doubts 30 fps will make some sort of a comeback. However, so far it has not at least on the PS5. I do use VRR though so games that might run sluggishly run well enough on the performance mode.

I do think releasing your game now with locked 30 fps on the current gen hardware is a mistake. The graphical compromises that you have to make are well worth doubling the framerate, the difference is really not that much at this point. Even new realeases that do come out with a locked 30 fps get a ton of crap from the potential customers.

VRR is the technology that has simply not been taken advantage of yet and I think that is one of the biggest shames. Games could be designed to hit 60 fps most of the time, but allow drops into the 40s without being nearly as disruptive. Prior drops into the say 50-53 range was noticeable and sluggish, VRR corrects that drastically. With that the need to be stable goes away, at least to an extent.

I'd argue the difference is huge. A doubling of the frame rate requires double the compute needed to render at the same settings... and practically even more since you need head room. This is why we see the 30 fps modes have 1200p and more effects and the performance modes go to 847p or lower with a bunch of stuff dialed back. These boxes just don't have a ton of compute and were designed primarily to a price point. Sure they can do pretty much any 8th gen game at more than 1080p and 60fps, but when we get to games with 9th gen demands.... the power just isn't there.

Which gets back to the point where I think this chasing of graphics is hurting the industry more than helping. The customer demands are Hellblade 2 graphics in an open world with 60fps at 4k... and there isn't a consumer GPU that can pull that off, not even the RTX 4090. It sure isn't happening in a 4-600 box.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

I don't really understand VRR. Anyone care to take a stab at explaining what it does for a dummy? I'm still running strong with a 2080S for the time being but... I'll probably want an upgrade in the next few years, so if VRR is a thing I need to read up on, I'd like an idea of what to really look into or stay away from if possible?

 

[Pokecheque]

I've started Return to Monkey Island and so far it's great! Anyway...carry on.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

I've started Return to Monkey Island and so far it's great! Anyway...carry on.

Man, I'm getting confused. Is this the old Lucasfilm game from way back when? If so, you are going to absolutely love it. If not, I probably need to go look up a new game.

 

[The Moops]

Man, I'm getting confused. Is this the old Lucasfilm game from way back when? If so, you are going to absolutely love it. If not, I probably need to go look up a new game.

The original team that made the Monkey Island games made a new one

 

[henchman21]

I don't really understand VRR. Anyone care to take a stab at explaining what it does for a dummy? I'm still running strong with a 2080S for the time being but... I'll probably want an upgrade in the next few years, so if VRR is a thing I need to read up on, I'd like an idea of what to really look into or stay away from if possible?

It basically links the frame output of the computer/console with your TV/monitor. Today's monitors are a sample and hold sort of technology, so each frame is its own static picture. When we get outside the standard or a divisor of it, it gets choppy. This is why on a standard 60Hz TV, 30 FPS looks and feels smoother than 45 FPS. 30 basically just holds the picture twice for each TV cycle (15 was used back in early 3D days for this reason too). VRR monitors and TVs allow their framerate to vary and link with the output of the system. There are limitations in the implementations but 40-120 is pretty common (PS5 is 48 as a lower bound). So basically instead of having to fully lock to 60 for a smooth experience... the TV can simply match a 50 fps refresh rate. So a game that is mostly 60 fps, but has drops to 40 or 45 will always feel smoother with this implementation. Not as smooth as 60, but you won't get the jutter.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

The original team that made the Monkey Island games made a new one

Headed to Steam right now!!

 

[sethro109]

I don't really understand VRR. Anyone care to take a stab at explaining what it does for a dummy? I'm still running strong with a 2080S for the time being but... I'll probably want an upgrade in the next few years, so if VRR is a thing I need to read up on, I'd like an idea of what to really look into or stay away from if possible?

Basically means that your console and TV are working in tandem to help stop stuttering and screen tearing by syncing up their refresh rates. Some gamers (Mostly the pro esports kind) don't like it because it and can cause extra input latency.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

It basically links the frame output of the computer/console with your TV/monitor. Today's monitors are a sample and hold sort of technology, so each frame is its own static picture. When we get outside the standard or a divisor of it, it gets choppy. This is why on a standard 60Hz TV, 30 FPS looks and feels smoother than 45 FPS. 30 basically just holds the picture twice for each TV cycle (15 was used back in early 3D days for this reason too). VRR monitors and TVs allow their framerate to vary and link with the output of the system. There are limitations in the implementations but 40-120 is pretty common (PS5 is 48 as a lower bound). So basically instead of having to fully lock to 60 for a smooth experience... the TV can simply match a 50 fps refresh rate. So a game that is mostly 60 fps, but has drops to 40 or 45 will always feel smoother with this implementation. Not as smooth as 60, but you won't get the jutter.

OH...so basically it's a console version of what GSync (Nvidia) or FreeSync (AMD) technologies do for PC to monitor frame variences. And now I can guess what it stands for... Variable Refresh Rate?

 

[Pokecheque]

Man, I'm getting confused. Is this the old Lucasfilm game from way back when? If so, you are going to absolutely love it. If not, I probably need to go look up a new game.

Well, yes and no. This is actually the sixth entry in the series (came out in 2022)! I played the original waaaay back in the day on my old Atari 1040ST and it was incredible. I've never played any of the other installments.

I also played another Lucasfilm game, Zak McCracken and the Alien Mindbenders, on the same machine around that time.

The best part so far is that the new Monkey Island, like the original, has a very long-winded (but hilarious) shoutout to Lucasfilm's most famous game, Loom.

 

[henchman21]

Basically means that your console and TV are working in tandem to help stop stuttering and screen tearing by syncing up their refresh rates. Some gamers (Mostly the pro esports kind) don't like it because it and can cause extra input latency.

Which varies a lot by the monitor/TV. Some are barely anything <7ms. Some are 30. Most tend to be in the 10-15 from the tests I've seen.

OH...so basically it's a console version of what GSync (Nvidia) or FreeSync (AMD) technologies do for PC to monitor frame variences. And now I can guess what it stands for... Variable Refresh Rate?

Yeah that's exactly it. FreeSync is what the consoles use. All of those are just names for the GPU's implementation of VRR.