Proposal: VGK-PIT-TOR

[Americanadian]

To VGK: Rakell
To PIT: Minten, Robertson, Korczak, VGK 25 2nd
To TOR: Roy

From VGK: Roy, Korczak, 25 2nd
From PIT: Rakell
From TOR: Minten, Robertson

VGK pick up the best winger on the market (with term). They ship out Roy to make the cap work. Toronto gets their big 3C. PIT gets young players instead of high draft picks. Dubas/Clarke drafted Minten and Robertson in Toronto so there is a connection. Obviously Roy is filling in at 3C. I am proposing this based on the playoff roster where Karlsson plays 3C and assuming Howden at 4C.

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[Empoleon8771]

Toronto isn't paying nearly enough for Roy here and the return for the Penguins is pretty middling as well. That said, I'll admit that I don't like Minten as a prospect.

 

[hamzarocks]

Seems pretty fair value

Minten worth a 2nd or 3rd at worst
Robertson worth a 4th or 5th at worst
VGK 2nd is a 2nd
Korzcak worth a 3rd

So Pittsburgh gets at worst, 2nd, + 2 3rds + 5th to move Rakell with no salary cap retention.

VGK get a player that is productive and fills a scoring winger needed with term committment being required

Leafs get a 3C who has a decent cap hit and is having a bit of down year for production this season but has been a good 3C in the oast for the VGK on route to their cup win + deep runs they have had

 

[Empoleon8771]

Seems pretty fair value

Minten worth a 2nd or 3rd at worst
Robertson worth a 4th or 5th at worst
VGK 2nd is a 2nd
Korzcak worth a 3rd

So Pittsburgh gets at worst, 2nd, + 2 3rds + 5th to move Rakell with no salary cap retention.

VGK get a player that is productive and fills a scoring winger needed with term committment being required

Leafs get a 3C who has a decent cap hit and is having a bit of down year for production this season but has been a good 3C in the oast for the VGK on route to their cup win + deep runs they have had

That doesn't seem like a particularly good package for a guy on pace for 36 goals and 70 points this year

If a package of quantity is all the Penguins can get for Rakell, they shouldn't be trading him.

 

[Americanadian]

Toronto isn't paying nearly enough for Roy here and the return for the Penguins is pretty middling as well. That said, I'll admit that I don't like Minten as a prospect.

What is Roy’s value? What is Minten’s value?

That doesn't seem like a particularly good package for a guy on pace for 36 goals and 70 points this year

If a package of quantity is all the Penguins can get for Rakell, they shouldn't be trading him.

It’s not all that different from what they got for Guentzel.

 

[Empoleon8771]

What is Roy’s value? What is Minten’s value?

I think Roy can likely bring back a 2nd and a B prospect, something like Roy for Minten and a 2nd seems pretty reasonable. I don't think Robertson is enough there.

Minten is a decent prospect but I personally don't view him to have more than like fringe 3C/4C upside. He's a guy like Ponomarev in the Penguins system, who's not a bad prospect but isn't anything jumping off the paper either.

It’s not all that different from what they got for Guentzel.

It is significantly different than what they got for Guentzel. Minten and Ponomarev are the only comparable pieces there.

Where's the Koivunen caliber prospect? Robertson and Korzcak aren't that. I'm not all that high on Lucius personally but Lucius also seems to be a better prospect than either Robertson or Korzcak.

 

[HockeyVirus]

I think Roy can likely bring back a 2nd and a B prospect, something like Roy for Minten and a 2nd seems pretty reasonable. I don't think Robertson is enough there.

Minten is a decent prospect but I personally don't view him to have more than like fringe 3C/4C upside. He's a guy like Ponomarev in the Penguins system, who's not a bad prospect but isn't anything jumping off the paper either.

We'll have to disagree there... If you just look up his stats sure. Minten is a similar kind of player to a Lars Eller. Tons of intangibles and pretty clear he is going to at the very least bounce around the bottom of contending rosters and at best becomes one of the best 3C in the league.

We'll have to see how he develops but I won't be shocked when he is 26 years old he's 3C on a contending team similar to Cirelli.

 

[hangman005]

Not gonna lie I'd be tempted, can we throw in Holtz or Schwindt just so I never have to hear of them again. I mean because they are extremely valuable players... top notch

 

[Sideline]

Rakell is signed to an affordable cap hit for 2 more years and he's putting up excellent numbers. I want a 1st + a prospect/2nd to move off a player like that.

 

[hamzarocks]

That doesn't seem like a particularly good package for a guy on pace for 36 goals and 70 points this year

If a package of quantity is all the Penguins can get for Rakell, they shouldn't be trading him.

Rakell is not a consistent player. He has up and down production. His current year production should not be able to bridge his past performance levels along with him likely being a 2nd line winger on a cup team vs gettung top line mins/opps for the Pens

For his career with the Pens he has 156 pts in 225 games good for ~57 pts per 82.

We saw Guentzel got back 3 2nd + Chad Lus (4th rounder value most likley). He was a much more valued and proven asset than Rakell who had close to 6/7 years of ppg play.

His value was lowered due to him being a pending UFA.

Rakell has too much term and issues with consistency which raise risk of him being not worth it for an acquiring team which should lower his value than what hed get if he was a UFA rental (he could likely get a 1st straight with retention as a rental).

I think the max I would do as a leaf fan would be remove Robertson from the deal and put our 2nd from the Panthers into the deal.

That would be 2 2nds + Minten + Koz

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

It’s not awful but it’s not super enticing either.

I’d counteroffer the Pens getting Danford and Korzcak+Cataford

 

[Empoleon8771]

If we're doing a 3-way deal here, I think a more reasonable deal would be fewer but better pieces. Something like:

-Leafs get Roy
-Knights get Rakell
-Penguins get Brisson, Minten and Toronto's 2nd

In total, it ends up being Roy and Brisson for Rakell from Vegas and Minten and a 2nd for Roy from Toronto. That said, it's definitely possible that I'm severely overrating Brisson here.

I think the max I would do as a leaf fan would be remove Robertson from the deal and put our 2nd from the Panthers into the deal.

That would be 2 2nds + Minten + Koz

I mean yeah, that would be fine with me. I think that value there is completely reasonable with going from Robertson to a 2nd.

I think the value difference between a 2nd and Robertson is pretty significant.

 

[hamzarocks]

It’s not awful but it’s not super enticing either.

I’d counteroffer the Pens getting Danford and Korzcak+Cataford

Pure stat watching but Danford looks very unpromising, so much in fact I forgot he was part of the leafs system.

I get hes a bigger and more defensive type D, but Im not sure how many good top4D develop at the NHL after putting ~0.4ppg in their D+1 year.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

It’s not all that different from what they got for Guentzel.

It is significantly different than what they got for Guentzel. Minten and Ponomarev are the only comparable pieces there.

Where's the Koivunen caliber prospect? Robertson and Korzcak aren't that. I'm not all that high on Lucius personally but Lucius also seems to be a better prospect than either Robertson or Korzcak.

The Penguins also got Koivunen and Bunting.

So we have the 2nd in the deal.
We have a Minten level prospect.

Lucius I'd rate above Robertson. It's funny on the off season Pens fans were interested for a 2nd or 3rd. I am unsure if I even want him now. Might just be another Daniel Sprong.

Then we still need a Bunting or draft pick equivalent.

We also need a prospect equivalent to Koivunen.

 

[hamzarocks]

The Penguins also got Koivunen and Bunting.

So we have the 2nd in the deal.
We have a Minten level prospect.

Lucius I'd rate above Robertson. It's funny on the off season Pens fans were interested for a 2nd or 3rd. I am unsure if I even want him now. Might just be another Daniel Sprong.

Then we still need a Bunting or draft pick equivalent.

We also need a prospect equivalent to Koivunen.

Bunting was a cap dump in that deal. He was having a bad year for the Canes and had 2 years left of term. He wasnt a positive asset but a cap balance piece

Rakell wont get back Guentzel level package because at his best hes worst 10-15% than normal Guentzel.

They arent comparable players.

 

[Empoleon8771]

We also need a prospect equivalent to Koivunen.

Yeah I think this is the major deal breaker here. Like I said in those Buffalo threads, I think a fair deal for Rakell would be Rosen plus Buffalo's 2nd rounder (likely around #40 overall). I'd be looking for one Koivunen caliber prospect and then the value of a high 2nd.

I think the value of that high 2nd can be met with Minten and Toronto's 2nd, but they still need that Koivunen caliber prospect from Vegas. I don't know who really fits that, I used Brisson as an example but I think his stock has fallen due to his bad year this year. Maybe Cataford from Vegas instead?

 

[Americanadian]

The Penguins also got Koivunen and Bunting.

So we have the 2nd in the deal.
We have a Minten level prospect.

Lucius I'd rate above Robertson. It's funny on the off season Pens fans were interested for a 2nd or 3rd. I am unsure if I even want him now. Might just be another Daniel Sprong.

Then we still need a Bunting or draft pick equivalent.

We also need a prospect equivalent to Koivunen.

You’re not factoring in Korczak here. I view Minten=Koivunen, Robertson=Ponomarev, Korczak>Lucius. I thought Bunting was a neutral value asset at the time of the trade so unnecessary in this deal, especially with more NHL ready prospects coming back.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Raks is way more valuable than that. ~35 goals for 5M with a 100M+ cap is going to cost a 1st+

 

[Americanadian]

Raks is way more valuable than that. ~35 goals for 5M with a 100M+ cap is going to cost a 1st+

Sorry for the ignorance here but when is the last time he scored 35 goals? Also - will Rakell be on his current contract when the cap goes over 100M?

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

You’re not factoring in Korczak here. I view Minten=Koivunen, Robertson=Ponomarev, Korczak>Lucius. I thought Bunting was a neutral value asset at the time of the trade so unnecessary in this deal, especially with more NHL ready prospects coming back.

Don’t really disagree except for Robertson. Pedigree better than Pono but his waiver situation really discounts his value vs Ponomarev last year (who could go to the AHL for 2023-24 and all of 2024-25).

I don’t think it’s an awful proposal but at some point the Pens aren’t going to need more B prospects and can’t make every trade like the Guentzel trade (see packaging OC/Marcus Pettersson for just one single good draft pick and not quantity).

Not a super well known pool in terms of names but they have a ton of Minten types in the farm and a lot of 2nd/3rd rounders to draft more of em. Add in that they only have a few trade chips on the NHL roster (it’s really just Rakell, Bunting, Rust left who have good value and won’t be complicated to trade like EK65) and I think less is going to be more going forward.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Pure stat watching but Danford looks very unpromising, so much in fact I forgot he was part of the leafs system.

I get hes a bigger and more defensive type D, but Im not sure how many good top4D develop at the NHL after putting ~0.4ppg in their D+1 year.

all signs point to him being a Wes Clark pick correct? I’d imagine they’d still be high on him now that Clark is with the Pens.

I liked him last year, I think he has a good chance to be a solid 5D or a top 4 that plays with a stronger partner. Agree he’s not tracking to be an absolute stud but I’d prefer a B defenseman prospect over a B winger prospect.

 

[Toby Flenderson]

Yeah hard pass. Rakell will get more, and we can also retain on him to increase return. This is junk

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Bunting was a cap dump in that deal. He was having a bad year for the Canes and had 2 years left of term. He wasnt a positive asset but a cap balance piece

Rakell wont get back Guentzel level package because at his best hes worst 10-15% than normal Guentzel.

They arent comparable players.

36 in 60 as a 4.5 million dollar player not getting PP1 time. I don't think he was a cap dump. A lot of us Pens fans see him getting a 2nd at a deadline. This year or next.

Yeah I think this is the major deal breaker here. Like I said in those Buffalo threads, I think a fair deal for Rakell would be Rosen plus Buffalo's 2nd rounder (likely around #40 overall). I'd be looking for one Koivunen caliber prospect and then the value of a high 2nd.

I think the value of that high 2nd can be met with Minten and Toronto's 2nd, but they still need that Koivunen caliber prospect from Vegas. I don't know who really fits that, I used Brisson as an example but I think his stock has fallen due to his bad year this year. Maybe Cataford from Vegas instead?

You’re not factoring in Korczak here. I view Minten=Koivunen, Robertson=Ponomarev, Korczak>Lucius. I thought Bunting was a neutral value asset at the time of the trade so unnecessary in this deal, especially with more NHL ready prospects coming back.

Your right I am not.

Okay so a 5th rounder for Robertson

Lucius and Korczak are about equal. Depending who you ask some will say one or the other.

Raks is signed and at 5.5 million multi years.

Guentzel had 1 year and didn't say he would sign. We would have got more if we did a sign and trade.

Overall if Dubas took this deal I'd be upset. Guentzel deal and Peterson's deal was exactly what we expected. This feels light and I am only realistically interested in Minten.

I don't even think Sullivan would play Robertson. I am not impressed.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'd do this in a minute.

No retention and we get a 2nd, Korzcak and Minten.

 

[ToDavid]

Toronto isn't paying nearly enough for Roy here

What exactly are we meant to paying for a depth forward on pace for 11 goals and 34 points?