Seravalli: Vegas looking to terminate Lehner deal after he failed to report for physical

[The Duck Knight]

This is 100% accurate.

This doesn't happen on any other team in the league. The Avs have a drug addict that has submarined TWO different playoffs that apparently they can't do anything about but the golden turds whack job goalie doesn't show up for preseason so the cap hit goes away ? Whatta joke.

If Val decides not to report after his suspension the Avs can terminate his contract AND not have to pay him. Right now his cap doesn't count at all.

Any player that doesn't report is going to have their cap hit vanish.

 

[Treb]

Can we do this for Ellis then?

Did Ellis refuse to report for his physical?

 

[Treb]

It seems to me Montreal should be getting $10.5 Million in cap relief for Cary Price after this.

Price will never play again. same situation. Just don't report for a physical.

But Price reports for his physical. Not the same situation.

 

[JKG33]

Why would Vegas care about Lehner complaining to the media? You are grossly overestimating

1. the degree to which the media in the US cares about hockey.
2. the degree to which it would be considered inflammatory if the team cut him for not fulfilling his contractual obligation to get a physical

Vegas probably doesn't care, but the NHL sure as shit would which is why they were involved in this

 

[vipera1960]

There’s no requirement that an LTIR have his physical at the team facility or with a team doctor. It only needs to be a team approved doctor. So the obvious settlement should have been to either (a) send an approved physician to wherever Lehner is or (b) approve LTIR without a physical. This solution just feels really, really greasy.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

If you'd read my posts I've addressed several times why this situation is unique. Lehner's time in Vegas has been nothing short of a circus. The league is only giving Lehner his money because he'd cry mental health to the media if they don't, otherwise Vegas would have easy grounds to terminate based on his conduct.

If you think another player, with agreement from their team, is going to parade around like Lehner has done these last few years, I'd love to have some of what you're smoking. They'd be terminated without pay so f***ing fast, the only reason Lehner has a case is because he blamed his being out of shape on mental health, when he could barely move across the net years ago

The fact is the league has created a precedent of a contract being terminated with payment and the cap hit coming off.

It’s needlessly messy and opens the door on a loophole that is attractive for both player and teams, that would put the league in a spot of having to make the argument to justify why one players mental health issues are more legitimate then another’s, a position you could understand they surely wouldn’t want to be in. Now I don’t think this becomes a big thing because there really aren’t that many suitable ltiretirement contracts out there where teams would be desperate for the cap relief, especially with the flat cap era seemingly in the rear view and the cap set to rise significantly.

The point remains, precedent has been set which creates a risk of someone trying to exploit which could put the league in an uncomfortable spot.

The league had a much easier way to handle the situation by saying that given his situation the breach didn’t rise to the level of contract termination. The team is aware of his conditions, just like they knew he wasn’t going to pass his physical which is a formality at this point, and they could of, either before or after, made arrangements to accommodate this unique situation that didn’t result in a potential loophole to be exploited but in that case Vegas wouldn’t of gotten the cap relief which was really the goal here.

 

[JKG33]

The fact is the league has created a precedent of a contract being terminated with payment and the cap hit coming off.

It’s needlessly messy and opens the door on a loophole that is attractive for both player and teams, that would put the league in a spot of having to make the argument to justify why one players mental health issues are more legitimate then another’s, a position you could understand they surely wouldn’t want to be in. Now I don’t think this becomes a big thing because there really aren’t that many suitable ltiretirement contracts out there where teams would be desperate for the cap relief, especially with the flat cap era seemingly in the rear view and the cap set to rise significantly.

The point remains, precedent has been set which creates a risk of someone trying to exploit which could put the league in an uncomfortable spot.

The league had a much easier way to handle the situation by saying that given his situation the breach didn’t rise to the level of contract termination. The team is aware of his conditions, just like they knew he wasn’t going to pass his physical which is a formality at this point, and they could of, either before or after, made arrangements to accommodate this unique situation that didn’t result in a potential loophole to be exploited but in that case Vegas wouldn’t of gotten the cap relief which was really the goal here.

The thing that nobody wants to address is this only sets a precedent if another situation arises where a player lets himself get grossly out of shape, has a fued with the organization/coach, and then the circus that's been the last few years of his non-hockey life.

It's very rare a situation goes completely off the rails, which would be needed before this becomes a precedent.

I have no doubt the league and team hate how poorly Lehner has behaved through all this. There's no way they'd absolve him of blame and open the door for more of this shit.

 

[TFHockey]

But Price reports for his physical. Not the same situation.

Totally makes sense in a Bettman loves Vegas sort of way.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

The thing that nobody wants to address is this only sets a precedent if another situation arises where a player lets himself get grossly out of shape, has a fued with the organization/coach, and then the circus that's been the last few years of his non-hockey life.

It's very rare a situation goes completely off the rails, which would be needed before this becomes a precedent.

So you’re saying that the leagues view is going to be that mental health issues are only legitimate if a person acts like a complete circus clown?

Many if not most people deal with some sort of mental health issues, just because they don’t act like nut jobs, doesn’t make their illness any less legitimate, in fact most people suffer in silence or choose to keep their illness to themselves.

The league put themselves in a bad spot where if someone wants to make them deny a future claim under the precedent they’ve created, the league could end up having to argue that a players mental health issues aren’t legitimate, which would of course make them look terrible.

There was two much easier out comes in this situation. First, work with the parties to accommodate Lehner getting a physical without travelling to the teams facility, given that all involved understand he’s going to fail it and it’s just a formality at this point. With this outcome, everyone comes out happy and there’s no reason to terminate the contract as Vegas can just ltir him for the year like they’ve been doing.

The second option is to not allow Vegas to pay him out prior to a grievance, let the grievance process be used as it was designed for these contractual dispute situations and be confident that you have legitimate grounds for termination.

 

[QuizGuy66]

I swear if Vegas had been the team that did the Kovalchuk contract that the NHL hammered the Devils for the league would have found a way to give them a compensatory selection.

 

[Lacaar]

The thing that nobody wants to address is this only sets a precedent if another situation arises where a player lets himself get grossly out of shape, has a fued with the organization/coach, and then the circus that's been the last few years of his non-hockey life.

It's very rare a situation goes completely off the rails, which would be needed before this becomes a precedent.

I have no doubt the league and team hate how poorly Lehner has behaved through all this. There's no way they'd absolve him of blame and open the door for more of this shit.

I am interested to see what becomes of this. You're being a bit to focused on the type and feud part. it's like the LTIR playoff precedent. It doesn't matter what type of injury you have. It doesn't matter what type of mental health issue you have. All you have to have is a case for mental health issue.

I think Carey Price would be a great example. It may not happen because to me it's the player taking the risk but I'm interested to see if this happens again. Carey Price has a history of injury and mental health.

If I'm Montreal after seeing this. I'm working behind the scenes to apply this precedent. Proving mental health is even harder than proving injuries. If Price so desires to throw Montreal a bone. Just don't report for the physical next year. The precedent is set. Price gets his cash and Montreal gets their cap space.

I'd love to see what's going on behind closed doors in the NHL right now. My guess is the NHL sells this to other owners via interest to see Vegas succeed to grow the market. Bigger southern markets means more T.V money.. more t.v money means higher franchise value. If expansion and Arizona doesn't convince you of this then keep your head in the sand. The north is tapped. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there was an email going around warning other franchises about this as well. Especially the tapped out markets. This isn't a fair is fair decision. This is a what makes us the most money in the long run decision. Vegas will always be favored in this regard.. just accept it. Money.. it's always about money and don't think for 1 f***ing second fair is really considered.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

There’s no requirement that an LTIR have his physical at the team facility or with a team doctor. It only needs to be a team approved doctor. So the obvious settlement should have been to either (a) send an approved physician to wherever Lehner is or (b) approve LTIR without a physical. This solution just feels really, really greasy.

Exactly. The league has plenty of latitude in these situations, they could have easily come up with a remedy that satisfied the player and PA without getting into the messiness of terminating a contract and still paying out. Vegas would have went on with the situation the same way they have for the last two season with just putting Lehner on LTIR.

 

[JKG33]

So you’re saying that the leagues view is going to be that mental health issues are only legitimate if a person acts like a complete circus clown?

Many if not most people deal with some sort of mental health issues, just because they don’t act like nut jobs, doesn’t make their illness any less legitimate, in fact most people suffer in silence or choose to keep their illness to themselves.

The league put themselves in a bad spot where if someone wants to make them deny a future claim under the precedent they’ve created, the league could end up having to argue that a players mental health issues aren’t legitimate, which would of course make them look terrible.

There was two much easier out comes in this situation. First, work with the parties to accommodate Lehner getting a physical without travelling to the teams facility, given that all involved understand he’s going to fail it and it’s just a formality at this point. With this outcome, everyone comes out happy and there’s no reason to terminate the contract as Vegas can just ltir him for the year like they’ve been doing.

The second option is to not allow Vegas to pay him out prior to a grievance, let the grievance process be used as it was designed for these contractual dispute situations and be confident that you have legitimate grounds for termination.

To your first point, no. I think in other cases most players and teams have a better relationship where LTIR would be a good outcome for all involved.

However in this case you have a team that's tired of a player's shitty behavior and rightfully wants out. The league can save face by admitting Lehner does deserve to be terminated (while also using this as a precedent not to tolerate this kind of behavior), while also avoiding the bad press and headache of not paying him. Literally everyone wins here.

Your "much easier" outcomes are anything but. By not letting Vegas terminate the contract the league would be admitting Lehner has behaved appropriately, which is not the case.

The second option allows for all kinds of bad press to follow.

Literally the only people unhappy about this are the Vegas whiners club, who quite frankly would find anything to whine about anyway

I am interested to see what becomes of this. You're being a bit to focused on the type and feud part. it's like the LTIR playoff precedent. It doesn't matter what type of injury you have. It doesn't matter what type of mental health issue you have. All you have to have is a case for mental health issue.

I think Carey Price would be a great example. It may not happen because to me it's the player taking the risk but I'm interested to see if this happens again. Carey Price has a history of injury and mental health.

If I'm Montreal after seeing this. I'm working behind the scenes to apply this precedent. Proving mental health is even harder than proving injuries. If Price so desires to throw Montreal a bone. Just don't report for the physical next year. The precedent is set. Price gets his cash and Montreal gets their cap space.

I'd love to see what's going on behind closed doors in the NHL right now. My guess is the NHL sells this to other owners via interest to see Vegas succeed to grow the market. Bigger southern markets means more T.V money.. more t.v money means higher franchise value. If expansion and Arizona doesn't convince you of this then keep your head in the sand. The north is tapped. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there was an email going around warning other franchises about this as well. Especially the tapped out markets. This isn't a fair is fair decision. This is a what makes us the most money in the long run decision. Vegas will always be favored in this regard.. just accept it. Money.. it's always about money and don't think for 1 f***ing second fair is really considered.

The thing is Carey Price still by all accounts has a great relationship with the team and league. He's been a great ambassador for the game. Neither Montreal nor the NHL want the trouble of doing this to a player like Price.

Lehner has been the literal opposite

 

[Lacaar]

The thing is Carey Price still by all accounts has a great relationship with the team and league. He's been a great ambassador for the game. Neither Montreal nor the NHL want the trouble of doing this to a player like Price.

Lehner has been the literal opposite

You're still looking at it in the wrong lens.
It's not the Montreal Canadiens doing this to Price.
It's Price doing the Montreal Canadiens a solid.

They have a great relationship. If I'm Montreal ownership/management I'd be ecstatic if Price didn't report and I could terminate and pay with cap relief.
Essentially this a buy out at full price. the only difference is how much is distributed to the NHLPA and Owners, how do you not see this?

Vegas got a free buy out. They're probably toasting each other and fist pumping. Hell if you want to get into conspiracy theory's Lehner and Vegas could actually have a great relationship. This was a win win for Lehner and Vegas. The only loser's are the other 31 NHL franchises. Vegas now accrues cap space through out the season which is quite a significant shot in the arm.

 

[JKG33]

You're still looking at it in the wrong lens.
It's not the Montreal Canadiens doing this to Price.
It's Price doing the Montreal Canadiens a solid.

They have a great relationship. If I'm Montreal ownership/management I'd be ecstatic if Price didn't report and I could terminate and pay with cap relief.
Essentially this a buy out at full price. the only difference is how much is distributed to the NHLPA and Owners, how do you not see this?

Vegas got a free buy out. They're probably toasting each other and fist pumping. Hell if you want to get into conspiracy theory's Lehner and Vegas could actually have a great relationship. This was a win win for Lehner and Vegas. The only loser's are the other 31 NHL franchises. Vegas now accrues cap space through out the season which is quite a significant shot in the arm.

If you seriously think the NHL would let that happen and give a team and player the courtesy in a non-extrenious situation, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Remember a few years ago when Hossa announced the skin condition, and these same people overreacted saying suddenly every LTIR candidate would develop the same condition?

 

[Lacaar]

If you seriously think the NHL would let that happen and give a team and player the courtesy in a non-extrenious situation, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Remember a few years ago when Hossa announced the skin condition, and these same people overreacted saying suddenly every LTIR candidate would develop the same condition?

Are you trying to say no one has gone on LTIR with a questionable injury since Hossa's skin condition. It's not players claiming skin condition. it's players claiming unfit to play with a physical condition in order to get paid.. not play.. and not ride the AHL bus.

the extrenious situation is just a matter of judgement. Stephane Robidas broke his leg and though technically FIT to play (he was cleared for contact), was a shadow of the player he was ever going to be. Faced with the idea of bussing in the minors he agreed with Toronto (wink wink.. nudge nudge) to LTIR. No doctor was going to step in and say otherwise. Now days nobody bats an eyelash.. the precedent is set.

Will the mental illness precedent be set with this? Vegas got a real boon.. even better than the Robidas boon. You can hardly fault a team for trying. Carey Price has issues though I think they are substance related. But he could do Montreal a real solid here potentially as an example. What makes Lehner's mental challenges extreniously different than Price's?

 

[JKG33]

Are you trying to say no one has gone on LTIR with a questionable injury since Hossa's skin condition. It's not players claiming skin condition. it's players claiming unfit to play with a physical condition in order to get paid.. not play.. and not ride the AHL bus.

the extrenious situation is just a matter of judgement. Stephane Robidas broke his leg and though technically FIT to play (he was cleared for contact), was a shadow of the player he was ever going to be. Faced with the idea of bussing in the minors he agreed with Toronto (wink wink.. nudge nudge) to LTIR. No doctor was going to step in and say otherwise. Now days nobody bats an eyelash.. the precedent is set.

Will the mental illness precedent be set with this? Vegas got a real boon.. even better than the Robidas boon. You can hardly fault a team for trying. Carey Price has issues though I think they are substance related. But he could do Montreal a real solid here potentially as an example. What makes Lehner's mental challenges extreniously different than Price's?

There were "questionable" LTIRetirements before Hossa too, so no it wasn't precedent setting in that regard. Despite the blowhards on here pre-emptively whining that every old player would develop a skin condition. Just like a player turning his life into a circus won't be precedent setting either.

What makes Lehner different from Price? I've already answered that a few times over.

 

[BLONG7]

You're still looking at it in the wrong lens.
It's not the Montreal Canadiens doing this to Price.
It's Price doing the Montreal Canadiens a solid.

They have a great relationship. If I'm Montreal ownership/management I'd be ecstatic if Price didn't report and I could terminate and pay with cap relief.
Essentially this a buy out at full price. the only difference is how much is distributed to the NHLPA and Owners, how do you not see this?

Vegas got a free buy out. They're probably toasting each other and fist pumping. Hell if you want to get into conspiracy theory's Lehner and Vegas could actually have a great relationship. This was a win win for Lehner and Vegas. The only loser's are the other 31 NHL franchises. Vegas now accrues cap space through out the season which is quite a significant shot in the arm.

Mr Bettman approves thismessage....
You can bet, the owners are all watching....

 

[belair]

If Val decides not to report after his suspension the Avs can terminate his contract AND not have to pay him. Right now his cap doesn't count at all.

Any player that doesn't report is going to have their cap hit vanish.

Funny. I doubt Oscar Klefbom showed up for those physicals in the latter years of his deal considering he lives in Europe. The team and the league were completely aware of his condition.

The vast difference is that other teams simply don't grieve the no show and threaten to terminate the contract of a player they have no reason to hold ill will towards.

 

[Lacaar]

There were "questionable" LTIRetirements before Hossa too, so no it wasn't precedent setting in that regard. Despite the blowhards on here pre-emptively whining that every old player would develop a skin condition. Just like a player turning his life into a circus won't be precedent setting either.

What makes Lehner different from Price? I've already answered that a few times over.

I'm saying what makes Lehner any different from Price is the same as asking what makes Robidas different from Hossa.
The injury's are different.. but the nature isn't. Physical ailments requiring LTIR.

What's preventing Price's mental challenges any different from Lehner's requiring a buyout?
You're saying you have to make noise about it? that's it? Price just has to make noise and he gets the Canadiens cap relief?
The guys career has been cut short.. he's battled alcohol addiction. He's every bit a candidate as far as I'm concerned.

You're whole argument is Lehner is different because he's a pain in the ass?

 

[Mr Positive]

Either terminate the contract or let him sit on LTIR. This is blatantly spending past the cap ceiling.

 

[Lacaar]

Either terminate the contract or let him sit on LTIR. This is blatantly spending past the cap ceiling.

It's a free buyout.

 

[Vegan Knight]

Yes, it's a unique situation, but the key question is - what part of that unique situation entitles the Knights to essentially a free compliance buyout and Lehner to have his contract terminated but still get paid in full? Why isn't this either a typical contract termination or Lehner going to LTIRetirement?

Because Foley was willing to pay 4.5 million he didn't have to.

Whether he did it out of the goodness of his heart, for good PR or to avoid bad PR, or because he's old and doesn't want his conscience eating at him with Lehner in his current situation, you can debate his reason.

But Vegas would get the LTIR gone regardless, he didn't have to pay to get out of it, the breach already happened.

If other owners in the future want to voluntarily pay guys whose contracts they can terminate without paying anything, they can think about it.

If other players want to go through alcoholism, have multiple, well documented mental health related issues over a period of many years, get into massive debt whereby they won't get 80% of the money anyway while also being injured and out of shape, all in an attempt to get paid the last year of their deal (which, again, they won't see most of in their pocket) without showing up to fail a physical...

I guess they could try. Awful lot to go through, though.

 

[North Cole]

How is anyone defending this? The issue is not that someone can just not fulfill their contract requirements, then claim "because reasons", settle to still get their money. No one gives a shit that Vegas is still paying and he's still not playing. It's generally accepted this guy has massive issues preventing him from playing.

The issue is him not being required to go on LTIR. I mean you have people with literal permanent eye damage, massive concussions, et al, and they show up for physicals. If you're maimed mentally or physically to the point you can't show up, fine, then settle that clause out.

Don't give the f***ing team the ability to accrue cap space for this shit though. Makes absolutely no sense. He goes on LTIR like every other injured played in existence. Or the contract is terminated. There's no gray area.

It's indefensible for Vegas to be able to accrue cap space in this situation.

Edit:
I don't buy the crap that it's being done for altruistic reasons either. Because the money still counts toward HRR paid to players. So people are getting f***ed on escrow because of this, but Vegas is allowed to then spend more money. Lmfao

 

[Fatass]

How is anyone defending this? The issue is not that someone can just not fulfill their contract requirements, then claim "because reasons", settle to still get their money. No one gives a shit that Vegas is still paying and he's still not playing. It's generally accepted this guy has massive issues preventing him from playing.

The issue is him not being required to go on LTIR. I mean you have people with literal permanent eye damage, massive concussions, et al, and they show up for physicals. If you're maimed mentally or physically to the point you can't show up, fine, then settle that clause out.

Don't give the f***ing team the ability to accrue cap space for this shit though. Makes absolutely no sense. He goes on LTIR like every other injured played in existence. Or the contract is terminated. There's no gray area.

It's indefensible for Vegas to be able to accrue cap space in this situation.

Edit:
I don't buy the crap that it's being done for altruistic reasons either. Because the money still counts toward HRR paid to players. So people are getting f***ed on escrow because of this. But Vegas is allowed to then spend more money. Lmfao

Thiss^^^^^
Clearly the league caters to markets that will die if they don’t have a competitive club. How many draft picks do the Sens give up if they try this? Any Canadian club tries this and they get sanctioned, and not rewarded. The league cheats for certain US based teams and we, the due hard fans of other clubs, understand it and still hope our clubs can overcome it. How many years since a Canadian team won the Cup?
There are reasons it will be even longer, and this is just one.