Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[WhataKnight]

Mark Stone is a skid mark on the sport. I hope Dallas beats him down to retirement.

Curious what you think of Sean Avery.

I don’t blame Vegas, I blame Gary and the league not giving a flying f***

This is the correct take.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

That is already how it is, I'm pretty sure. Doctors won't risk lying and ruining their career just for that. If a doctor says a player is fully healthy, I'm fairly confident their team is forced to activate jim.

Go back and read the post that I was responding to, then realize there have been times not even near the playoffs where a player was on LTIR and eligible to come off and was healthy but couldn't because of cap considerations, then try this again.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

no I understand quite well... I said I dont give a crap... playoffs the cap is the cap and it recalculates per game...

If your worried about deadline acquisitions then make it for anyone whos was on LTIR.. either way, the cheating has to stop.

What you don't give a crap about is that a team with a perfectly legal roster on game 82 of the regular season could have an illegal roster on game 1 of the playoffs. That's what you're saying.

The thing with LTIR (that people have an issue with) is that it can allow a team to gave a legal roster on game 1 of the playoffs that would be deemed illegal on game 82 of the regular season.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

Go back and read the post that I was responding to, then realize there have been times not even near the playoffs where a player was on LTIR and eligible to come off and was healthy but couldn't because of cap considerations, then try this again.

When and who was actually undeniably deemed healthy by a doctor and kept on the ltir for a long time ? I'd like the examples. (the post you're responding to was hypothetical)
I'm sure there's a "buffer" period to allow for teams to make the required moves to be cap compliant, because yeah that makes sense.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

In theory I agree with you, and it could happen…. but it doesn’t. Teams carry dead cap, extra players, etc.

The only team that’s going to have a 20 man roster over the cap in the first round is Vegas, by about $4m. If Tampa makes the second round, they’ll be over with Sergachev back. The Rangers might get Chytil back, but as I mentioned above, they’ll still be just under.

I’m saying this as someone who agrees with you that there really aren’t any good solutions to the problem. Just thought I’d point this out. Most teams 20 man rosters are in the $76-78m range.

Just checked and you're correct on that. Thought it'd be higher because of how many teams flirt with the cap hit during the season (which counts the full roster and non ltir and buried and all that)

 

[WhataKnight]

 

[I am toxic]

I just don't understand how the question mark in the thread title is still there.

Like, it never should have been there to begin with, but can't typos in thread titles be edited?

The more things don't change, the more they stay the same.

Well, except for any respect people had for Vegas fans.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Good idea...

 

[joepeps]

What you don't give a crap about is that a team with a perfectly legal roster on game 82 of the regular season could have an illegal roster on game 1 of the playoffs. That's what you're saying.

The thing with LTIR (that people have an issue with) is that it can allow a team to gave a legal roster on game 1 of the playoffs that would be deemed illegal on game 82 of the regular season.

you are one of those no no no guys but never provides a solution... why are we talking about this then? Who cares, let people cheat.... close up this thread.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

When and who was actually undeniably deemed healthy by a doctor and kept on the ltir for a long time ? I'd like the examples. (the post you're responding to was hypothetical)

I'll have to swap computers later and see if I can find it, but I know there was an example around 2008 or 2009, another circa 2010 and then another in the 2015 range.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

you are one of those no no no guys but never provides a solution... why are we talking about this then? Who cares, let people cheat.... close up this thread.

I personally don't provide a solution because there aren't any good and fair solution that doesn't involve a complete rehaul of the cap system and potentially escrow.

And I don't have as strong an opinion as many on this whole ltir thing as a whole. I'm fine if it stays the way it is.

 

[joepeps]

I personally don't provide a solution because there aren't any good and fair solution that doesn't involve a complete rehaul of the cap system and potentially escrow.

And I don't have as strong an opinion as many on this whole ltir thing as a whole. I'm fine if it stays the way it is.

i'm fine with it too... the leafs need to start sitting their 10 mil players and get McDavid and others... but then things with change, league will step in and find a solution, that is very simple... your not fit for the playoffs and someone else took your spot? too bad you can't play, or that player that took your spot has to sit.

 

[hangman005]

would be wonderful poetic justice for Stone to come back and suck, or get actually injured.

But I was told that no one was saying he was faking it.

 

[hangman005]

As much as I think it’s a valid injury, I admit that they took advantage.

I honestly expected a round 2 arrival, to be honest. I’d allowed an amount of validity to the healing time.

Ehhh then all we'd here is that it's a transparent attempt at Vegas and Stone to not look suss. People just want to be mad at Vegas at that's OK, he could've missed the whole playoffs and we'd still be cheaters.

 

[WhataKnight]

Ehhh then all we'd here is that it's a transparent attempt at Vegas and Stone to not look suss. People just want to be mad at Vegas at that's OK, he could've missed the whole playoffs and we'd still be cheaters.

This is also correct.

I won’t say that there’s no chance of going a little ticky-tack, but I won’t dispute the validity of injuries either

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Curious what you think of Sean Avery.



This is the correct take.

Sean Avery is a skid mark on the human race.

 

[Nemec]

That is already how it is, I'm pretty sure. Doctors won't risk lying and ruining their career just for that. If a doctor says a player is fully healthy, I'm fairly confident their team is forced to activate jim.

It's just that "healthy enough" means "fully healthy to the point there are no realistic risk to the player". A doctor cannot ethically and morally deem a player "healthy enough" just because they think he can endure some pain for a few games. They need to be 99% sure before deeming a player healthy.

Very naive take.
Doctors can be replaced very easily for pro sports. Doctors will conveniently proclaim that the player isn't ready for game 82, so management stays happy.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

i'm fine with it too... the leafs need to start sitting their 10 mil players and get McDavid and others... but then things with change, league will step in and find a solution, that is very simple... your not fit for the playoffs and someone else took your spot? too bad you can't play, or that player that took your spot has to sit.

Well, for the leafs to do that first, these players would need to be deemed injured by a doctor to start with, with a recovery period spanning long enough to be ltir'd. They can't just decide to do it.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

Very naive take.
Doctors can be replaced very easily for pro sports. Doctors will conveniently proclaim that the player isn't ready for game 82, so management stays happy.

It's not naive at all. Especially when other teams could challenge if they think something is sketchy. Lying and making a false medical diagnosis can cause a doctor to lose their practice licence for some time. No doctor will risk that just so a team can have a better chance at winning.

If you've worked in the medical field, you'll understand one thing though : doctors are very reticent at taking any sort of risks, unless the situation calls for it (life or death situation, potentially avoiding permanent damage, etc). There is not a set magical point, as I said, where a player suddenly goes from being unable to play to being able to play.

Can some teams plan surgeries so that the recovery time falls in line with the start of the playoffs, absolutely. Tampa has done it, notably. But the league is in no legal position to decide when a player has to have surgery. If the player is willing to wait for said surgery, there is nothing the league can do that wouldn't be illegal.

 

[joepeps]

Well, for the leafs to do that first, these players would need to be deemed injured by a doctor to start with, with a recovery period spanning long enough to be ltir'd. They can't just decide to do it.

yeah like Stone... every year... same shit... pay the dr. he says what you want.

 

[DuklaNation]

This is permitted to occur by Bettman. Otherwise the loophole would be closed. For him, it's all about growing US advertising revenues.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

yeah like Stone... every year... same shit... pay the dr. he says what you want.

Stone has very well documented health issues though. If you think they're fake, that's on you for believing dumb shit. Teams are always within their rights to contest if they think medical fraud is taking place.

He probably should retire given he's made of glass, but doesn't want to because he likes the game too much.

 

[hangman005]

I imagine teams will offer multiple firsts to Vegas for Stone, so they can load up at the TDL next season.

 

[Lapa]

What a surprising turn of events.

NHL needs to do something about this.

 

[McFlyingV]

It's not naive at all. Especially when other teams could challenge if they think something is sketchy. Lying and making a false medical diagnosis can cause a doctor to lose their practice licence for some time. No doctor will risk that just so a team can have a better chance at winning.

If you've worked in the medical field, you'll understand one thing though : doctors are very reticent at taking any sort of risks, unless the situation calls for it (life or death situation, potentially avoiding permanent damage, etc). There is not a set magical point, as I said, where a player suddenly goes from being unable to play to being able to play.

Can some teams plan surgeries so that the recovery time falls in line with the start of the playoffs, absolutely. Tampa has done it, notably. But the league is in no legal position to decide when a player has to have surgery. If the player is willing to wait for said surgery, there is nothing the league can do that wouldn't be illegal.

You mean like the team doctors who supplied anabolic steroids to multiple MLB players during the steroid era? There is a huge difference in what doctors will do in a clinical/hospital setting vs. when they're employed by a professional sport team. Clearing a player to return to practice or play can be very subjective from a medical professional, and it really wouldn't be hard to alter timelines by a few weeks.