Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[Vegas07]

Vegas not making the playoffs is not a realistic possibility. It can happen but the circumstances would have to be extraordinary. It is about as likely as them not making a significant add using the ltir space.

What did the defending cup champs do this year? Added hanifin to an awesome D core. Added Hertl and Mantha to an awesome forward core. Those are some seriously good reinforcements. And stone might be in the mix too I'd kill for these problems.lol

Vegas missing the playoffs happened only 2 years ago and nobody expected that to happen. That team actually looked in much better shape right after the all-star break. They didn’t have a hot start pad their record.

The D is nowhere near where it was a year ago. What have they done THIS year? This team gives up a lot more goals than the team from a year ago.

Mantha has been called lazy by many and looks like just a rental. Hertl is another player that is hurt and on the wrong side of 30. Sure I’m excited to see him play, but the team has to pay most of his salary and gave up the most assets to get him.

 

[Czechboy]

Vegas missing the playoffs happened only 2 years ago and nobody expected that to happen. That team actually looked in much better shape right after the all-star break. They didn’t have a hot start pad their record.

The D is nowhere near where it was a year ago. What have they done THIS year? This team gives up a lot more goals than the team from a year ago.

Mantha has been called lazy by many and looks like just a rental. Hertl is another player that is hurt and on the wrong side of 30. Sure I’m excited to see him play, but the team has to pay most of his salary and gave up the most assets to get him.

You keep referring to the recent LV struggles as though that is the actual team that is going to the playoffs.

I totally agree that without Hertl, hanifin, stone, Martinez and Mantha that the team isnt as good. Eichel also missed time in your recent losing streaks.

If you are looking for sympathy for a d core that has Pietrangelo, Martinez, McNabb, Theodore and Hanifin then you are really talking to the wrong guy.

And I don't care about who made the playoffs 2 years ago.

 

[Vegas07]

You keep referring to the recent LV struggles as though that is the actual team that is going to the playoffs.

I totally agree that without Hertl, hanifin, stone, Martinez and Mantha that the team isnt as good. Eichel also missed time in your recent losing streaks.

If you are looking for sympathy for a d core that has Pietrangelo, Martinez, McNabb, Theodore and Hanifin then you are really talking to the wrong guy.

And I don't care about who made the playoffs 2 years ago.

The fact you mention Martinez proves my point though. He is just a name right now. He has been awful. He was recently demoted in the lineup and missed a few games due to injury. Maybe injury made him play a lot worse, but whatever the reason is he has played a lot worse. And he is 36 years old.

Hague and Whitecloud were taken out of the lineup last game and I saw fans celebrating that.

I was happy the team added Hanifon because that’s what you do when your D needs an upgrade. Why get him if the D is already awesome without him?

The point about 2 years ago is you would have said exactly the same thing about that team. You would have said there is no way that team misses the playoffs, and that anybody who said otherwise was crazy.

 

[Vegas07]

Also personally I don’t buy into the idea that a team can easily just put players together, flip a switch and just turn it on when it needs to. Sure that might happen, but if the plan is to do that immediately against a first or second place team, it doesn’t sound like a great plan.

 

[Celtic Note]

Those in power and wealth create loopholes to exploit. Is anyone surprised when they exploit the loopholes they collectively create? It’s sort of a favorite past time of the rich, “who can exploit the system we created the best”? The champion of exploitation is a true rich man’s folk hero!

 

[DickSmehlik]

Memo to Vegas.

If it is your plan to stash guys on IR in order to field a cheat code team for the post-season, make sure you make the post-season first.

 

[Voight]

Also personally I don’t buy into the idea that a team can easily just put players together, flip a switch and just turn it on when it needs to. Sure that might happen, but if the plan is to do that immediately against a first or second place team, it doesn’t sound like a great plan.

Seriously, this isn't EA NHL franchise mode.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Memo to Vegas.

If it is your plan to stash guys on IR in order to field a cheat code team for the post-season, make sure you make the post-season first.

I think that they would rather players like Mike Stone play, there is no question in my mind. They were just taking advantage of the situation. All the power to them. I don’t think they were arrogantly thinking they will make the playoffs easily while stashing guys away on LTIR. I don’t see why there is a need for people to be so outraged lol.

 

[McFlyingV]

Interesting from Pierre Lebrun's athletic article surrounding LTIR discussions at the GM's meeting. Multiple GMs proposing that they would prefer teams active rosters have to be cap compliant for playoff games. But yet that one poster in here told me that was an impossible fix and something they couldn't look at implementing. Hmmm...

 

[Nemec]

It's not really manipulation. The teams have doctors that make these decisions.

The league also sues third parties to ensure compliance.

Like I said, you cannot prove a player is pain free enough to come back on game 82 or needs a few extra days to come back on game 1 of the playoffs. Doctors will ask the player ... Are you still in pain? The player will say yes, I need a few extra days. There is nothing objective about it.

 

[HolyGhost]

it would be a shame if when the playoff starts and all Vegas knight players are suddenly healthy if each them suffer injures that will take them out till the next playoffs. Darn shame if other teams players get in touch with the 1970's style of playing, explaining just how complicate the players are in this farce. Darn shame if that happens.

 

[McFlyingV]

Like I said, you cannot prove a player is pain free enough to come back on game 82 or needs a few extra days to come back on game 1 of the playoffs. Doctors will ask the player ... Are you still in pain? The player will say yes, I need a few extra days. There is nothing objective about it.

Pain doesn't equal injury or even tissue damage. Pain is a subjective phenomenon that involves a complex interaction of biopsychosocial factors. Pain and sensitivity can persist long after an injury has healed and is completely safe to play.

 

[Voight]

Like I said, you cannot prove a player is pain free enough to come back on game 82 or needs a few extra days to come back on game 1 of the playoffs. Doctors will ask the player ... Are you still in pain? The player will say yes, I need a few extra days. There is nothing objective about it.

I must've misunderstood your previous post - I agree 100% with you here.

I'll add that there also may not be a consensus between two doctors. One might clear a player to return the week before the playoffs, the other one might want them to rest another week.

 

[kylbaz]

I think that they would rather players like Mike Stone play, there is no question in my mind. They were just taking advantage of the situation. All the power to them. I don’t think they were arrogantly thinking they will make the playoffs easily while stashing guys away on LTIR. I don’t see why there is a need for people to be so outraged lol.

The whole league would like to see them run Mike Stone out there.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Interesting from Pierre Lebrun's athletic article surrounding LTIR discussions at the GM's meeting. Multiple GMs proposing that they would prefer teams active rosters have to be cap compliant for playoff games. But yet that one poster in here told me that was an impossible fix and something they couldn't look at implementing. Hmmm...

I never said it can't be implemented. Of course it can be implemented, the GMs can ask to implement anything they want.

I said the rule everyone is proposing won't fix the thing they're bitching about, and is going to cause more problems than it solves. But after weeks of trying to get some of you to realize and you all continue to swear to f***ing god it's a foolproof plan with zero downsides and any problems I point out are irrelevant, I'm at the point I'm like "fine, do it, I don't f***ing care at this point, the only way you're all going to learn is through the pain of experience when you realize what you've asked for locked up a swath of the trade market because teams saving up cap space to make additions at the deadline is pointless because of the playoff cap rule."

And then we'll see what moronic "solutions" you all come with to fix the real problems your plan created - because I have no doubt they're going to be worse than the "solution" you all have to fix this "problem" that exists.

 

[Vegas07]

Interesting from Pierre Lebrun's athletic article surrounding LTIR discussions at the GM's meeting. Multiple GMs proposing that they would prefer teams active rosters have to be cap compliant for playoff games. But yet that one poster in here told me that was an impossible fix and something they couldn't look at implementing. Hmmm...

How many GMs is “multiple GMs?” Multiple could mean 4 or 5, which is a very small percentage of them. Or it could be a much larger number.

 

[McFlyingV]

I never said it can't be implemented. Of course it can be implemented, the GMs can ask to implement anything they want.

I said the rule everyone is proposing won't fix the thing they're bitching about, and is going to cause more problems than it solves. But after weeks of trying to get some of you to realize and you all continue to swear to f***ing god it's a foolproof plan with zero downsides and any problems I point out are irrelevant, I'm at the point I'm like "fine, do it, I don't f***ing care at this point, the only way you're all going to learn is through the pain of experience when you realize what you've asked for locked up a swath of the trade market because teams saving up cap space to make additions at the deadline is pointless because of the playoff cap rule."

And then we'll see what moronic "solutions" you all come with to fix the real problems your plan created - because I have no doubt they're going to be worse than the "solution" you all have to fix this "problem" that exists.

NFL doesn't need big TDL rentals to be a successful league. Not really sure why you think this is needed in hockey. You can still add players at 75% retention with 3-way trades, which for a 6mil cap hit becomes 1.5 for the purpose of playoffs so this doesn't exactly kill the deadline, and you can always ship players out for cap collateral to upgrade a position. I'd rather have less TDL acquisitions than a team playing a roster that is 10-20mil over the other 15 teams in the playoffs.

 

[Kennedys]

 

[Chaos2k7]

Another way would be to simply enforce the cap for the entire league year including playoffs, allowing for any possible overages only during the offseason while teams build and then once again become cap compliant before the next league year.

Like every other cap based league.

If you have to play even shorthanded at times during the regular season to be compliant, why would it all fly out the window once the stakes are at their highest?

It's not cheating per se, but its also intellectually dishonest to say that it cannot create an advantage if everything comes together with impecable timing.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Another way would be to simply enforce the cap for the entire league year including playoffs, allowing for any possible overages only during the offseason while teams build and then once again become cap compliant before the next league year.

You ... do know that the cap is enforced for the entire league year already, right?

Oh, wait - that's not the problem. It's just not enforced like you want it enforced.

If you have to play even shorthanded at times during the regular season to be compliant, why would it all fly out the window once the stakes are at their highest?

If you can accrue savings to improve your roster during the regular season and stay compliant, why would it all fly out the window once .... ?

It's not cheating per se, but its also intellectually dishonest to say that it cannot create an advantage if everything comes together with impecable timing.

1. Life isn't fair. Yeah, I know, that's complete snark. The fact that I figure out some way to do things better, more efficient than someone else that "isn't in the rules but should be" doesn't mean you get to tell me "oh, sorry - we probably should have said that was illegal, so don't do it."

2. Everyone has known since the late days of 2005 when the CBA was released and some people (yours truly) combed through it and realized that teams can save up cap space to spend it on improvements at the deadline that, with impeccable timing, teams can add players and "end up with a team that's over the cap in the playoffs" and no one complained about that being unfair.

3. If usage of LTIR is the problem, then come up with a solution that addresses the problem, not a "solution" that "fixes" the problem but screws up other stuff as well. And, make it something that the NHLPA is going to sign off on, because this requires a change to the CBA and the NHLPA gets a say in that. And, don't invoke well the NHLPA is concerned about fairness for the playoffs and its members having a fair chance to win the Cup because the NHLPA couldn't give the first shit about that: it's concerned with the playing rights of players and them getting as much money as possible, "playoff fairness" is way down the list of its concerns, somewhere below "high quality bath towels" and "turn down service when staying in a hotel" [which Fehr didn't get the players - probably one of his bigger regrets].

 

[Chaos2k7]

You ... do know that the cap is enforced for the entire league year already, right?

Oh, wait - that's not the problem. It's just not enforced like you want it enforced.


If you can accrue savings to improve your roster during the regular season and stay compliant, why would it all fly out the window once .... ?


1. Life isn't fair. Yeah, I know, that's complete snark. The fact that I figure out some way to do things better, more efficient than someone else that "isn't in the rules but should be" doesn't mean you get to tell me "oh, sorry - we probably should have said that was illegal, so don't do it."

2. Everyone has known since the late days of 2005 when the CBA was released and some people (yours truly) combed through it and realized that teams can save up cap space to spend it on improvements at the deadline that, with impeccable timing, teams can add players and "end up with a team that's over the cap in the playoffs" and no one complained about that being unfair.

3. If usage of LTIR is the problem, then come up with a solution that addresses the problem, not a "solution" that "fixes" the problem but screws up other stuff as well. And, make it something that the NHLPA is going to sign off on, because this requires a change to the CBA and the NHLPA gets a say in that. And, don't invoke well the NHLPA is concerned about fairness for the playoffs and its members having a fair chance to win the Cup because the NHLPA couldn't give the first shit about that: it's concerned with the playing rights of players and them getting as much money as possible, "playoff fairness" is way down the list of its concerns, somewhere below "high quality bath towels" and "turn down service when staying in a hotel" [which Fehr didn't get the players - probably one of his bigger regrets].

I don't think it has anything to do with what I personally desire, but its strange that during the regular season you cannot ice a team over X amount, but in the postseason you seemingly can.

If that seems to you like they are policing the cap the same throughout the full league year, we disagree.

 

[Nemec]

I must've misunderstood your previous post - I agree 100% with you here.

I'll add that there also may not be a consensus between two doctors. One might clear a player to return the week before the playoffs, the other one might want them to rest another week.

And the team will always side with the doctor who says to wait for the playoffs.

I've worked on a medical staff for an NHL team as a physician... I know for sure that those jobs can be given to someone else very easily, when doctors don't "play ball" with teams. Also there is risk of distrust if a player is brought back too early and gets re-injured.

Combining the subjectivity of pain (if a player says he's still in pain, he must be believed, even if it means sitting until game 1 of the playoffs) and the risk of the team losing confidence in the doctor, most doctors will say the player needs some extra time to heal, and that time will coincide with game 1 of the playoffs.

Eliminate the inherent subjectivity in these medical decisions that provides advantages to some teams.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I don't think it has anything to do with what I personally desire, but its strange that during the regular season you cannot ice a team over X amount, but in the postseason you seemingly can.

You can ice a team over X amount in the regular season. You just ... have to save up for that so that you can do it later in the year.

If that seems to you like they are policing the cap the same throughout the full league year, we disagree.

We do disagree. I'm reading the rules as they're written, you're reading the rules as you want them to be.

I'm not saying the rules as written are good. They're not, and that's true across parts of the CBA. I'm pretty sure that the moment the league referenced how the cap works in the playoffs, I said it was going to be a problem at some point and there needed to be a solution that clearly defined the cap for the playoffs. I can distinctly recall saying "this is a potential problem" and getting drowned out by dozens of people, OH COME ON, YOU'RE BEING OVERSENSITIVE, YOU WORRY TOO MUCH, TEAMS WON'T DO THAT, THERE'S RULES IN PLACE, EVERYONE KNOWS TO FOLLOW THEM!

[And lo and behold, a decade plus later, here we are. Welcome to the party, all you late-comers.]

I'm just saying that if you want to play by the rules you think are there or that you think should be there, you're probably going to be worse off than if you play by the rules that exist and look for ways to extend your advantage but stay within them. And if you're going to change things, come up with something that fixes the problem and isn't a knee-jerk reaction that you don't think through, that causes more problems than you solve.

 

[Chaos2k7]

You can ice a team over X amount in the regular season. You just ... have to save up for that so that you can do it later in the year.


We do disagree. I'm reading the rules as they're written, you're reading the rules as you want them to be.

I'm not saying the rules as written are good. They're not, and that's true across parts of the CBA. I'm pretty sure that the moment the league referenced how the cap works in the playoffs, I said it was going to be a problem at some point and there needed to be a solution that clearly defined the cap for the playoffs. I can distinctly recall saying "this is a potential problem" and getting drowned out by dozens of people, OH COME ON, YOU'RE BEING OVERSENSITIVE, YOU WORRY TOO MUCH, TEAMS WON'T DO THAT, THERE'S RULES IN PLACE, EVERYONE KNOWS TO FOLLOW THEM!

[And lo and behold, a decade plus later, here we are. Welcome to the party, all you late-comers.]

I'm just saying that if you want to play by the rules you think are there or that you think should be there, you're probably going to be worse off than if you play by the rules that exist and look for ways to extend your advantage but stay within them. And if you're going to change things, come up with something that fixes the problem and isn't a knee-jerk reaction that you don't think through, that causes more problems than you solve.

This is why I understand the sentiment from opposing fans and from the Vegas fans themselves, this is a self inflicted rules gaff by the league and PA.

It just is what it is at this point, but I do think they will address it next round.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I agree, I think it will get addressed. And, being the NHL and seeing what they've done with prior "solutions" I have no doubt it will be a half-assed fix that will create more problems, but everyone will get to pat themselves on the back, we fixed the problem, great job, pizza and beers for everyone! Wait, what you do mean trades are more difficult, we made it more difficult for teams with legitimate injuries to make moves they need? No one warned us this might happen?