Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[Ted Hoffman]

The problem is convincing the NHL to give the player a medical before the last game

Not inaccurate, but this is like all of the point-in-time pictures people post to "prove" some action on the ice is whatever they want it to be. And, it potentially requires teams to make an instant, on-the-spot decision based on what someone's opinion is at the moment.

[My preferred solution, if we're going to something like this, omitted - because, ...]

But as noted before: this presumes that teams think it's a big enough problem to have to solve by making changes to the salary cap system in whatever way. They don't [so far]; it's much more a fan-angst-driven thing.

 

[BMOK33]

Simple solution: Make LTIR a season ending designation. Any player placed on LTIR is ineligible to return to the lineup until the following season.

You won't see that happen but you might see them require that the player has to play in the final game of the regular season or they cannot play in the playoffs. The problem there is you can probably circumvent that too...if its a Dman and that game matters to some degree as far as playoff positioning you could dress 7 dmen and have the guy off LTIR play like 3 minutes or just one shift

 

[Ted Hoffman]

You won't see that happen but you might see them require that the player has to play in the final game of the regular season or they cannot play in the playoffs.

The NHLPA is never allowing LTIR to be season-ending, unless the owners offer up something pretty substantial in return. They might allow for a subset designation, season-ending LTIR to be created, but (1) that probably comes with strings attached like "the player doesn't count against the cap at all," and more importantly (2) it's use will still be at the team's discretion, so it really doesn't fix anything. If anything, that would work against the players because it would result in more dollars paid to the players which later bites then in the ass on escrow.

The problem there is you can probably circumvent that too...if its a Dman and that game matters to some degree as far as playoff positioning you could dress 7 dmen and have the guy off LTIR play like 3 minutes or just one shift

Guys who cannot be medically cleared to play before the end of the regular season, but might be cleared to play 10-14 days, 3 weeks later, 6 weeks later and could participate in playoff action at that point, are not getting green-lighted to play even for just "come off the bench, skates touch the ice, get back on the bench" stunts. Yet, every one of these proposals treats them like a guy who maybe could play before the end of the regular season but sits out until the start of the playoffs.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

It almost needs a new word. Is it circumvention if the medical issue has been playable for a while, but the timing of going on LTIR is selected just to spend at the deadline, with Eichel returning just in time for the cap to disappear?

Honestly, if the medical issue is real (which it is) then you can't call it circumvention

I call it cap circumcision, where you just remove a bit of playing time right before tdl.

 

[TheNumber4]

You are SO close to getting it.


Fairness is a judgment call, frequently invoked when someone feels like they're being screwed. Someone else is being screwed? Hey, that's their problem - everything is fair because it benefits me, or I'm not getting harmed.

That said: there's a lot of games where the rules are not fair. In my opinion, of course. There's even sports where the rules aren't fair. In my opinion, of course. I can either accept that, or skip it. I don't get to interject my views of what's fair and what's not and demand everyone else bend to them.

YMMV.


Yeah, who the hell comes up with a system where teams aren't on an even playing ground? That would be stupid.

Sincerely,

MLB (no salary cap, high-revenue teams can spend to forever if they wish), La Liga (top teams can spend multiples of what everyone else can), and a ton of other leagues around the world.


While you demand everything be fair to some standard you deem acceptable, yes.

When you realize how reality works, no.


Good point. If you feel that way, you should just abandon following the sport entirely. If enough people like you do it, maybe you can have an impact.

No not close. I 100% get it. You are the one that seems to think rules and fairness is a judgement call. Yes sometimes things can seeeeeeem unfair. But objectively many games and many sports are 100% fair cause that’s the BASIC REQUIREMENT for them to even exist. Here’s some examples of objectively FAIR sports by the consensus of the athletes playing them and the fans watching them: Golf, Tennis, Badminton, Ping Pong, Volley Ball, Bowling, Curling, Curling, Billiards, etc etc. Every single sport is designed for that sport to be fair for all participants. There’s grey areas when it comes to some team sports on a professional level though. MLB and Soccer are not designed to be fair when it comes to player acquisition. But salary capped Leagues, like the NBA, NFL, and NHL are designed to be fair in terms of how much you can spend on players. For the most part the NBA and NFL gets it right and theres very little controversy or debate about the salary cap. For the NHL cause it’s a clown show League there’s always controversy with LTIR cap cheating, now compare that to the NBA’s DPE system and theres barely any chatter or complaints about how that works. Cause the NBA actually put effort, thought, and time into it to ensure there’s little abuse of that system. NHL as usual a joke when compared to the management and execution of a League in comparison.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

No not close. I 100% get it. You are the one that seems to think rules and fairness is a judgement call.

Fairness is absolutely a judgment call. If you want to claim otherwise, I have really, really bad news for you about numerous examples throughout history where life was deemed to be fair for one group of people yet was decidedly unfair for everyone else - because in the judgment of the people being advantaged, they thought things were fair [for them].

Yes sometimes things can seeeeeeem unfair. But objectively many games and many sports are 100% fair cause that’s the BASIC REQUIREMENT for them to even exist.

Are games of chance 100% fair? They're inherently designed to not favor the contestant, and yet they still exist.

Are sports fair? Well, I guess if we're talking about the application of the game's rules probably. If we're talking about the ability of teams to be competitive? They're absolutely not fair, even in a salary cap system. While every team is given the same opportunity to spend to some threshold, financial constraints prevent some teams from doing so (in absolute terms and/or with respect to how the cap system is calculated) while other teams have financial advantages that allow them to spend in absolute dollars more while still staying within the constraints of the system.

Yet, ... no one is complaining about how that's not fair. Unless it comes to income taxes and certain teams winning - then it's not fair. But only in the NHL, because that same stuff doesn't happen in other sports and it certainly cannot be shown that the only reason certain teams win is purely due to the absence of income taxes and nothing else.

Here’s some examples of objectively FAIR sports by the consensus of the athletes playing them

Um ... OK. I mean, I can spend all weekend long picking apart each of them and explaining how they're really not as fair as you want to believe they are, but whatever.

But salary capped Leagues, like the NBA, NFL, and NHL are designed to be fair in terms of how much you can spend on players.

And all of them - especially the first one - has all kinds of exceptions available that allow teams to have decided advantages, which while they're all available to every team not every team can take advantage of because of their unique financial considerations.

For the NHL cause it’s a clown show League there’s always controversy with LTIR cap cheating

Which is available to every team in the league, just ... not every team can take take advantage of it because of their unique financial considerations.

now compare that to the NBA’s DPE system and theres barely any chatter or complaints about how that works.

Because it's ... well, if you read the last two remarks, you know what goes here.

Cause the NBA actually put effort, thought, and time into it to ensure there’s little abuse of that system.

This is unsupported conjecture, because there's been complaints about teams [intentionally] gaming exceptions in the salary cap system for their own advantage.

NHL as usual a joke when compared to the management and execution of a League in comparison.

And yet, everyone's "solution" is "let's put no time into [finding a solution]" not withstanding concerns of abuse of it or, as I've repeatedly tried to get people to pay attention to, ensuring teams who aren't trying to engage in "abuse of that system" don't get harmed in the process.

Seriously: everything boils down to "I'm pissed someone else is doing X and my team isn't." Oh, I know, I'd be pissed if my team did X too. Every team could do X in the same situation; they just never get into that situation in the first place, and since someone else does that's not fair.

Which, going right back to the top, is subjective (based on one's judgment of what's fair and what's not) and not objective.

 

[Golden_Jet]

No not close. I 100% get it. You are the one that seems to think rules and fairness is a judgement call. Yes sometimes things can seeeeeeem unfair. But objectively many games and many sports are 100% fair cause that’s the BASIC REQUIREMENT for them to even exist. Here’s some examples of objectively FAIR sports by the consensus of the athletes playing them and the fans watching them: Golf, Tennis, Badminton, Ping Pong, Volley Ball, Bowling, Curling, Curling, Billiards, etc etc. Every single sport is designed for that sport to be fair for all participants. There’s grey areas when it comes to some team sports on a professional level though. MLB and Soccer are not designed to be fair when it comes to player acquisition. But salary capped Leagues, like the NBA, NFL, and NHL are designed to be fair in terms of how much you can spend on players. For the most part the NBA and NFL gets it right and theres very little controversy or debate about the salary cap. For the NHL cause it’s a clown show League there’s always controversy with LTIR cap cheating, now compare that to the NBA’s DPE system and theres barely any chatter or complaints about how that works. Cause the NBA actually put effort, thought, and time into it to ensure there’s little abuse of that system. NHL as usual a joke when compared to the management and execution of a League in comparison.

DPE you have to apply for before January 15th, and have a doctor sign off, and you get 50% or less relief. There are a lot of exceptions.
https://www.spotrac.com/spots/what-is-the-nba-disabled-player-exception-1670/#:~:text=However%2C%20the%20NBA%20does%20have,and%20can't%20be%20used.

 

[TheNumber4]

Fairness is absolutely a judgment call. If you want to claim otherwise, I have really, really bad news for you about numerous examples throughout history where life was deemed to be fair for one group of people yet was decidedly unfair for everyone else - because in the judgment of the people being advantaged, they thought things were fair [for them].


Are games of chance 100% fair? They're inherently designed to not favor the contestant, and yet they still exist.

Are sports fair? Well, I guess if we're talking about the application of the game's rules probably. If we're talking about the ability of teams to be competitive? They're absolutely not fair, even in a salary cap system. While every team is given the same opportunity to spend to some threshold, financial constraints prevent some teams from doing so (in absolute terms and/or with respect to how the cap system is calculated) while other teams have financial advantages that allow them to spend in absolute dollars more while still staying within the constraints of the system.

Yet, ... no one is complaining about how that's not fair. Unless it comes to income taxes and certain teams winning - then it's not fair. But only in the NHL, because that same stuff doesn't happen in other sports and it certainly cannot be shown that the only reason certain teams win is purely due to the absence of income taxes and nothing else.


Um ... OK. I mean, I can spend all weekend long picking apart each of them and explaining how they're really not as fair as you want to believe they are, but whatever.


And all of them - especially the first one - has all kinds of exceptions available that allow teams to have decided advantages, which while they're all available to every team not every team can take advantage of because of their unique financial considerations.


Which is available to every team in the league, just ... not every team can take take advantage of it because of their unique financial considerations.


Because it's ... well, if you read the last two remarks, you know what goes here.


This is unsupported conjecture, because there's been complaints about teams [intentionally] gaming exceptions in the salary cap system for their own advantage.


And yet, everyone's "solution" is "let's put no time into [finding a solution]" not withstanding concerns of abuse of it or, as I've repeatedly tried to get people to pay attention to, ensuring teams who aren't trying to engage in "abuse of that system" don't get harmed in the process.

Seriously: everything boils down to "I'm pissed someone else is doing X and my team isn't." Oh, I know, I'd be pissed if my team did X too. Every team could do X in the same situation; they just never get into that situation in the first place, and since someone else does that's not fair.

Which, going right back to the top, is subjective (based on one's judgment of what's fair and what's not) and not objective.

Yes. Sports on a rules based level are designed to be fair and universally accepted to be fair otherwise it wouldn’t be accepted as a mainstream sport to being with. It’s literally like I said a BASIC REQUIREMENT In every single sport. If you think that’s an opinion it’s such ridiculous notion, and you seem to be making some Life Isn’t Fair Wah Wah type argument that has nothing to do with sport and is some sort of philosophical rant or tangent that you’ve personally concocted. Not the discussion we are having, so I’m done wasting my time with this conversation. My original post and its points remain. Refer back to them if you want keep this one going.

DPE you have to apply for before January 15th, and have a doctor sign off, and you get 50% or less relief. There are a lot of exceptions.
https://www.spotrac.com/spots/what-is-the-nba-disabled-player-exception-1670/#:~:text=However%2C%20the%20NBA%20does%20have,and%20can't%20be%20used.

Yes, exactly and the NBA has to independently verify the injury before it’s even granted. And they’ve denied claims in the past. Unlike LTIR which can be apiece at ANY time with no real set mechanism of policing in the rules, maybe the NHL will look into it, maybe they won’t. No one knows.

And lo and behold, with the restrictions you’ve noted and how the entire system is set up and proper monitoring by the NBA, fans of that sport don’t have to deal with this notion of getting the screw job by cap cheating teams.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Yes. Sports on a rules based level are designed to be fair and universally accepted to be fair otherwise it wouldn’t be accepted as a mainstream sport to being with. It’s literally like I said a BASIC REQUIREMENT In every single sport. If you think that’s an opinion it’s such ridiculous notion, and you seem to be making some Life Isn’t Fair Wah Wah type argument that has nothing to do with sport and is some sort of philosophical rant or tangent that you’ve personally concocted. Not the discussion we are having, so I’m done wasting my time with this conversation. My original post and its points remain. Refer back to them if you want keep this one going.



Yes, exactly and the NBA has to independently verify the injury before it’s even granted. And they’ve denied claims in the past. Unlike LTIR which can be apiece at ANY time with no real set mechanism of policing in the rules, maybe the NHL will look into it, maybe they won’t. No one knows.

And lo and behold, with the restrictions you’ve noted and how the entire system is set up and proper monitoring by the NBA, fans of that sport don’t have to deal with this notion of getting the screw job by cap cheating teams.

Yes, but you’re forgetting one thing: the cap wasn’t designed for competitive fairness. It was designed to ensure cost certainty. Once all the salaries have been paid out at the end of the regular season, the owners and players got their 50-50 split. They couldn’t care less what happens after.

 

[OVO16]

Dont hate the player, hate the game

NHL allows this so why would Vegas care

 

[Vegas07]

According to the posts I’m reading here the Oilers should say their two or three best players are injured because they have plenty of points in the standings to do this and they can bring them back any time if they need to.

Then they can try step two, which is to acquire great talent in trades. That’s easy to do even if you don’t have many great assets to trade and you don’t trade away the players you really want to keep. Other teams will just give their good players away in trades so they can help “cheaters” win.

And of course when you do trade for players, it always works out. They fit in and feel comfortable right away, never get hurt, have no issues fitting in with new coaches, systems, teammates, cities, etc. They never need time to figure anything out and never go into any slumps.

Next step is to win the cup which happens 100% of the time.

 

[Devilmademedoit]

Lets put a pin into this topic. If Eichel and the other guys are not back for game one of the playoffs--all use who believe the knights are full of shit. IF Eichel AND the the other guy are back for game one and if the Knights pick up a player or two with the money they have with these two guys being on the LTIR and those guys are also in the line up--those who say the Knights are up to nothing and doing nothing wrong--will admit that knights are bullshit artists.

The fact the knights are big game hunting means they do not expect either player to be back in the regular season--no problem--but for them to come back for game 1 of the playoffs? So they get to play the players who were injured and the players the picked up with the money they saved due to two guys being on LTIR.

I can see some trash cans being tossed on this board when that happens. We are two 1/2 months away from the playoffs and many of us predicting both will be back. But yet---no there is not bs at work. Sorry. IF both players are back like MOST of us predict? Will show why the nhl is a joke

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Yes. Sports on a rules based level are designed to be fair and universally accepted to be fair otherwise it wouldn’t be accepted as a mainstream sport to being with. It’s literally like I said a BASIC REQUIREMENT In every single sport.

Awesome, we agree. Has no bearing on the complaint being made, though.

you seem to be making some Life Isn’t Fair Wah Wah type argument that has nothing to do with sport

Sport is not life. If you're complaining about unfairness in sports, there's a whole f***ing shitload of unfairness in life you should be much more concerned about, that affects you much more personally than anything that happens in sport.

But, people get bent out of shape over "unfairness" in sports because they treat it like it directly impacts their lives - hence, my remark.

Not the discussion we are having, so I’m done wasting my time with this conversation.

OK.

 

[TheNumber4]

Awesome, we agree. Has no bearing on the complaint being made, though.

Sport is not life. If you're complaining about unfairness in sports, there's a whole f***ing shitload of unfairness in life you should be much more concerned about, that affects you much more personally than anything that happens in sport.

But, people get bent out of shape over "unfairness" in sports because they treat it like it directly impacts their lives - hence, my remark.


OK.

I expect my sports to be fair. I don’t expect it out of life, that whole irrelevant “life is not fair” college student level philosophical argument came from you, not me. I’m doing my best to ignore the irrelevant point you are trying to use to obfuscate the actual issue. Which is fairness in sport.

 

[Vegas07]

Let’s see who the Knights pick up at least. It’s not like the team has a lot of great assets to give up to easily acquire a star.

The last time the Knights did acquire a star, it was seen as a very risky move, and people here were laughing at Vegas saying the team picked up a cancer that would haunt the team for the rest of his contract.

One of the names being tossed around is Reilly Smith, a 32 year old, overpaid forward with 23 points who hasn’t worked out that well in Pittsburgh and has a lower trade value as a result. His age was a major reason the Knights didn’t try to keep him. But if we get him people will act like we are one of the greatest teams ever and just traded for Gretzky in his prime.

 

[KingPuckChoo]

Vegas just won the cup

so let's talk about 2025, will the Caps Pens rebound? WIll Philly continue to rise? How hot are the Rangers really?

I'm thinking the Devils should have a good chance next season

 

[TheNumber4]

Vegas just won the cup

so let's talk about 2025, will the Caps Pens rebound? WIll Philly continue to rise? How hot are the Rangers really?

I'm thinking the Devils should have a good chance next season

None of those teams will have a chance when Vegas does it again for the 3-peat.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I expect my sports to be fair.

... so I’m done wasting my time with this conversation.

Are you done, or are you just saying you're done and you really want to keep trying to get in a semantics debate about what constitutes fairness and when it is and isn't important?

 

[TheNumber4]

Are you done, or are you just saying you're done and you really want to keep trying to get in a semantics debate about what constitutes fairness and when it is and isn't important?

I’m done. Cause the semantics are coming from you. We are talking about Sport. You are talking about life for whatever reason, on a different forum that may be an interesting conversation for us to have.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I’m done.

OK. Again.

Cause ...

OK, maybe not. Again. Maybe I need to be the one to do something about this.

 

[AlainVigneaultsGum]

 

[VivaLasVegas]

I can see some trash cans being tossed on this board when that happens.

In the real world, utterly nobody who matters sees any issue at all here, but raise all the hell you want on an anonymous discussion board ...
it is what they are for.

 

[canadianmagpie]

Just make the salary cap exist in the playoffs. Maybe you can increase it for the playoffs by a few million but it stops teams from adding an extra $15 million in talent when your guys come back for game 1.

 

[hangman005]

View attachment 824596

The turtle part definately tracks

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Just make the salary cap exist in the playoffs.

Great idea. This is only the 19th time this idea has been offered, and like the past 18 it lacks a whole lot of detail about how that's supposed to happen and still work with permissible moves during the regular season so that we actually fix the alleged problem without harming teams who engage in perfectly legitimate behavior.