Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[TLEH]

He’s been on LTIR three times, the two times their playoff spot was safe, he came back game 1 of playoffs, the one time they were in a tight race, he came back with 9 games remaining. But we’re all delusional and seeing shit lol.

Again, it’s fine. They’ve abused it, they should. they know what they’re doing and it should be fixed.

 

[rsteen]

Giving everyone an extra 10-16m doesn't solve anything that people might have an issue with (it just changes the upper limit thus would increase salaries instead), and has escrow ramifications.

It's actually not much of a problem regarding escrow because teams aren't adding to total player compensation at the deadline. They're just moving around contracts that were already signed.

Teams can add/sign players as long as they were on their reserve list at the deadline, but a handful of ELCs across the league, pro-rated to the weeks after the deadline, isn't going to make a noticable difference to escrow.

I don't know if it actually solves the issue though.

 

[bossram]

If the decision is influenced in ANY way by the cap circumstance then it’s a problem. No doubt it it wasn’t a cap crunch Stone would have played in the Chicago and Anaheim games at least as an opportunity to get his legs under him again.

That’s a problem.


See above.

Why is it a problem? Literally every roster decision made by GMs has some "cap circumstance" in mind. What about sending guys down to fit under the cap? Cap circumstances. Cap dump trade? Cap circumstances. Retained salary? Cap circumstances. Shifting guys on and off LTIR? Cap circumstances.

Unless you can show a CBA rule was broken, it's perfectly legal and there's not much to be salty about.

 

[TheBeard]

Why is it a problem? Literally every roster decision made by GMs has some "cap circumstance" in mind. What about sending guys down to fit under the cap? Cap circumstances. Cap dump trade? Cap circumstances. Retained salary? Cap circumstances. Shifting guys on and off LTIR? Cap circumstances.

Unless you can show a CBA rule was broken, it's perfectly legal and there's not much to be salty about.

lol. Imagine comparing sending guys down with purposely keeping a guy on LTIR. I can’t with some of you.

 

[bossram]

Hiding a healthy player on LTIR. If he’s fine for tonight, he was fine for Vegas’s last game of the season.

You can prove that?

Also, it's obvious that players are more willing to play through injury or pain in the playoffs vs. regular season. What you're arguing for is a ludicrous standard: Guys should always be forced to play in the regular season, regardless of injury/pain, so long as they are remotely physically able to get on the ice.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Lmao!! Why do you think “just twice in a row,” would be fine with anyone that’s bitching about it?

In 2022, he'd missed parts of the season due to a back injury, went on LTIR, came back with 9 games to play, Vegas missed the playoffs anyway, he had back surgery in May 2022 and then had another back surgery in 2023.

Just curious: how much of all of that do you think he was faking, and how much do you think he was playing through injury knowing he wasn't 100% and wouldn't have been cleared had the decision been left to someone else?

 

[bossram]

They were in a playoff race so he came back to try and get them over the hump. Not sure this helps your argument. If anything it hurts it, in my opinion.

It hurts the cap-circumvention argument. Because in that instance, VGK literally did not circumvent the cap.

So is it about circumventing the cap or not?

 

[bossram]

If this is the case then it’s no longer a decision made by league doctors as many argue here. It’s a team (and player) decision made in regards to what’s best for the team. It’s a bad precedence then when you’re letting the player decide when his cap hit suddenly counts.

It may be "bad precedent"....that every single team in the league engages in. Should Ekblad be forced out of G1 because he missed regular season games to end the season? What about Jarnkrok, same thing?

You can argue that players should be forced to play or not to play. But unless you can point to a specific rule that was broken, there was nothing done wrong.

 

[bossram]

He’s not faking injury, they are faking the timeline of when the player is ready to play, which by definition is breaking the rules. If the player is healthy and ready to play, he needs to be playing not sitting out rests of the regular season(even if it’s just a game or two) to play in the playoffs and be cap compliant

Guys are always more willing to play through injury/pain in the playoffs vs. regular season. Your standard is ludicrous. Basically saying if a guy is even remotely able to take the ice, he should be forced back in the regular season.

Should Ekblad have been forced out of G1 because he missed regular season games to end the season? What about Jarnkrok, same thing? Should they have been forced back in Game 82?

Lmao!! Why do you think “just twice in a row,” would be fine with anyone that’s bitching about it?

People are bitching nonsensical arguments. I am simply correcting them. In this case, all I'm doing is correcting something that is just factually incorrect. If you're going to argue something, at least be right about the basic facts.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I hope they amend the rules to require teams be cap compliant for all games. That seems like it should make everyone happy.

 

[TLEH]

It hurts the cap-circumvention argument. Because in that instance, VGK literally did not circumvent the cap.

So is it about circumventing the cap or not?

It doesn’t help the argument that he just so happens to get healthy Game 1 of the playoffs, is he healthy or not? Seems to me like when the games matter, he’s healthy, whether that’s the regular season or the post season.

2021-2022 they had 10M+ on LTIR too. I’m sure Reilly Smith would have been good to go Game 1 that year too.

 

[bossram]

lol. Imagine comparing sending guys down with purposely keeping a guy on LTIR. I can’t with some of you.

So you're saying only LTIR is a "cap circumstance", and no other possible roster transaction has "cap circumstances" factored in?

Interesting take there.

Make a legitimate argument and I would consider it. FWIW, I think they should change the rules. But as is, nothing Vegas did was outside the rules.

 

[myperbixhurts]

Guys are always more willing to play through injury/pain in the playoffs vs. regular season. Your standard is ludicrous. Basically saying if a guy is even remotely able to take the ice, he should be forced back in the regular season.

Should Ekblad have been forced out of G1 because he missed regular season games to end the season? What about Jarnkrok, same thing? Should they have been forced back in Game 82?


People are bitching nonsensical arguments. I am simply correcting them. In this case, all I'm doing is correcting something that is just factually incorrect. If you're going to argue something, at least be right about the basic facts.

I can understand when it happens once, but when it happens two years in a row, it’s hard to believe it’s a coincidence.

 

[TheBeard]

It may be "bad precedent"....that every single team in the league engages in. Should Ekblad be forced out of G1 because he missed regular season games to end the season? What about Jarnkrok, same thing?

You can argue that players should be forced to play or not to play. But unless you can point to a specific rule that was broken, there was nothing done wrong.

If they weren’t counting against the cap then yes. Last I checked Ekblad wasn’t on LTIR and thus his hit was still there.

 

[M88K]

Guys are always more willing to play through injury/pain in the playoffs vs. regular season. Your standard is ludicrous. Basically saying if a guy is even remotely able to take the ice, he should be forced back in the regular season.

Should Ekblad have been forced out of G1 because he missed regular season games to end the season? What about Jarnkrok, same thing? Should they have been forced back in Game 82?


People are bitching nonsensical arguments. I am simply correcting them. In this case, all I'm doing is correcting something that is just factually incorrect. If you're going to argue something, at least be right about the basic facts.

There's a difference between a player not being 100% and 2 days later being able to play.

the standard doesn't have to be if they're healthy enough for game 1 of the PO then they are healthy enough for game 82 of the reg.

The standard should be, if they are healthy enough for game 1 of the PO, there is 0 reason they should be on LTIR for game 82 of the regular season, Yet, he somehow wasn't healthy enough to be non LTIR scratch for game 82 (because Vegas would be over the cap) but is perfectly healthy to play 3 days later.

Regular IR opens a roster spot for players injured but not able to play.
But the difference is of course the cap hit applies, and can't have that as Vegas would have been over

 

[Ted Hoffman]

The standard should be, if they are healthy enough for game 1 of the PO, there is 0 reason they should be on LTIR for game 82 of the regular season, Yet, he somehow wasn't healthy enough to be non LTIR scratch for game 82 (because Vegas would be over the cap) but is perfectly healthy to play 3 days later

This is still "a player must choose to take himself off LTIR in the regular season to be eligible to play in the playoffs" no matter how you want to paint this. Which, as has been explained countless times now, the NHLPA is never agreeing to.

 

[TheBeard]

It

So you're saying only LTIR is a "cap circumstance", and no other possible roster transaction has "cap circumstances" factored in?

Interesting take there.

Make a legitimate argument and I would consider it. FWIW, I think they should change the rules. But as is, nothing Vegas did was outside the rules.

It won’t matter what either of us says. It won’t change the others mind. Sending players down, however isn’t remotely in the same stratosphere as using a vague timeline for an injury to conveniently have said player suddenly available at the most team friendly time two years in a row. The legitimate argument is knowing any team can be exploitive of LtIr fully understanding the PR nightmare the league would want to avoid if forcing the issue on players playing despite the team or the player having a different opinion. Especially after the CTE press for the past decade.

 

[bossram]

It doesn’t help the argument that he just so happens to get healthy Game 1 of the playoffs, is he healthy or not? Seems to me like when the games matter, he’s healthy, whether that’s the regular season or the post season.

2021-2022 they had 10M+ on LTIR too. I’m sure Reilly Smith would have been good to go Game 1 that year too.

Because literally every NHL team has several players that could be deemed "healthy" or "unhealthy" at any given time, given the injuries and pain they typically play through.

Of course they'll choose to play when the games matter more. Every single player would lean this direction. Patrice Bergeron played in the playoffs with a punctured lung. Would you have told him he had to sit?

Again, this is not some mysterious advantage Vegas has. Every team does this. With Florida, Ekblad missed a bunch of games to end the season. He's back G1. Because it's the playoffs. Same with Jarnkrok and Toronto.

I can understand when it happens once, but when it happens two years in a row, it’s hard to believe it’s a coincidence.

Yes, it is hard to believe a lacerated spleen is a legit injury, because that's pretty uncommon. But unless you can prove it's fake, what are you trying to claim here?

If they weren’t counting against the cap then yes. Last I checked Ekblad wasn’t on LTIR and thus his hit was still there.

So a player is fine to pretend to be healthy/unhealthy, as long as it doesn't meet a certain threshold of "cap circumstances"?

But I thought it was about the health of the player? So now it's not?

 

[bossram]

There's a difference between a player not being 100% and 2 days later being able to play.

the standard doesn't have to be if they're healthy enough for game 1 of the PO then they are healthy enough for game 82 of the reg.

The standard should be, if they are healthy enough for game 1 of the PO, there is 0 reason they should be on LTIR for game 82 of the regular season, Yet, he somehow wasn't healthy enough to be non LTIR scratch for game 82 (because Vegas would be over the cap) but is perfectly healthy to play 3 days later.

Regular IR opens a roster spot for players injured but not able to play.
But the difference is of course the cap hit applies, and can't have that as Vegas would have been over

Again, why would a team move a player from LTIR to regular IR if he's still not projected to play. No team is going to do this. Again, a nonsensical standard.

 

[rsteen]

I hope they amend the rules to require teams be cap compliant for all games. That seems like it should make everyone happy.

They are cap compliant for all games. No cap rules were broken.

 

[TLEH]

Because literally every NHL team has several players that could be deemed "healthy" or "unhealthy" at any given time, given the injuries and pain they typically play through.

Of course they'll choose to play when the games matter more. Every single player would lean this direction. Patrice Bergeron played in the playoffs with a punctured lung. Would you have told him he had to sit?

Again, this is not some mysterious advantage Vegas has. Every team does this. With Florida, Ekblad missed a bunch of games to end the season. He's back G1. Because it's the playoffs. Same with Jarnkrok and Toronto.

Never argued it was mysterious. Never argued that other teams haven’t done it. It’s a competitive advantage in a league with an extremely hard cap. It goes against everything they stand for.

All I’ve said this entire time is that

1) They are following the rules as written
2) the rules should be changed if you’re allowed to exceed the cap by a substantial amount and ride that into the post season free and clear. Hawks did it and won. Tampa did it and won. Vegas did it and won. Competitive advantage, and a damn good one.

 

[Laus723]

In 2022, he'd missed parts of the season due to a back injury, went on LTIR, came back with 9 games to play, Vegas missed the playoffs anyway, he had back surgery in May 2022 and then had another back surgery in 2023.

Just curious: how much of all of that do you think he was faking, and how much do you think he was playing through injury knowing he wasn't 100% and wouldn't have been cleared had the decision been left to someone else?

Kucherov had surgery, everyone believes he could’ve been back sooner. I don’t care how injured he was, when was he able to come back? I’m not buying that he’s such a team player he’s suddenly able to play. Two years in a row. And was fine all playoffs last year.

 

[TheBeard]

So a player is fine to pretend to be healthy/unhealthy, as long as it doesn't meet a certain threshold of "cap circumstances"?

But I thought it was about the health of the player? So now it's not?

its never been about the players health.

 

[Oilslick941611]

You can prove that?

Also, it's obvious that players are more willing to play through injury or pain in the playoffs vs. regular season. What you're arguing for is a ludicrous standard: Guys should always be forced to play in the regular season, regardless of injury/pain, so long as they are remotely physically able to get on the ice.

if you can't get off LTIR for game 82 but are ready for game 1 of the playoffs, its fishy, two years in a row is a joke.

He was clearly ready to play by the end of the season but was hid on LTIR because Vegas couldn't ice a cap complaint roster. You'll never convince me otherwise, and this loophole will be closed. Teams are talking and complaining according to Saravalli on the DFO rundown today.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Kucherov had surgery, everyone believes he could’ve been back sooner. I don’t care how injured he was, when was he able to come back? I’m not buying that he’s such a team player he’s suddenly able to play. Two years in a row. And was fine all playoffs last year.

OK, so you don't buy it.

The league did. Or, the league didn't but didn't care.

The opinion of one of those two is what matters. That's the one whose lead I'm going to follow. And, based on its actions, that's the one whose intent I'm going to try and figure out by watching its actions.

YM clearly Vs.