Vancouver led the league in points at Christmas, Can they continue this run into the New Year?

Canucks could very well keep that 0.689, improve on it or go down. No one knows what will happen similar to how people predicted Canucks will not sustain their point percentage at 10 game mark yet here were are at 40 game mark and they still have similar point percentage as the 10 game mark in the beginning of the season. As i said, you cant predict what will happen in the near future but can say they could possibly regress at some point. That point, no one knows. It could be on the road trip, could be next month or next year. But i can tell you they have factors that could maintain their current play for sometime. Their coach, their goalies, forward depth, elite centers and elite dman and their structure in teems of how they play defense and how they forecheck. If it was a team composed of scrubs and young rookies then they would have regressed a long time ago like Anaheim but this is not the case.
No, it is extremely unlikely they improve on .689, based on their underlying metrics, that very few teams crest that level of dominance, and the general preponderance of luck in the game of hockey. It is very clear that you don't understand these concepts people are discussing, which is why they need to be said.
 
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Canucks have 7 games VS Kings and Jets left. Have to figure these games will have significant impact on the playoff seeding. It's going to be awesome to finally play some meaningful games down the stretch.

FYI, for those expecting a huge regression--- .500 from here on out puts them at 96 points. Canucks are running out of runway to have this epic collapse you are expecting.
If people are still predicting for a Canucks collapse with Canucks being number 1 in the west and 2nd overall at halfway point, then i dont know what to say to those people. The team has shown enough to be called a legit playoff team.
 
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No, it is extremely unlikely they improve on .689, based on their underlying metrics, that very few teams crest that level of dominance, and the general preponderance of luck in the game of hockey. It very clear that you don't understand these concepts people are discussing, which is why they need to be said.
I said it can go three ways. But you seem to be guaranteeing that canucks will go down soon with confidence when its hard to predict at which point they will regress. Again its not me not understanding stats but you are using it inappropriately to forecast a collapse or regression soon when it could very well not be soon. Also some games make their underlying stats worst like the sens game last night when its clear watching them shows that Canucks were in control and won it the first 20 minutes.
 
No, it is extremely unlikely they improve on .689, based on their underlying metrics, that very few teams crest that level of dominance, and the general preponderance of luck in the game of hockey. It very clear that you don't understand these concepts people are discussing, which is why they need to be said.
Honest question, and I don't mean to be confrontational in any way. Do you watch the Canucks play?

I look at a game like last night. I would assume that the Metrics do not favor the Canucks, I personally don't ever look or care.. They came out and blew the doors off the Sens real early and were up 5-0, then took their foot off the gas and were outplayed for chunks the rest of the way. Still won 6-3, no major injuries, and all our best players played 3-5 mins less than normal, Demko got some work in after not playing for 9 days. Head out now on a 7 game roadie after not breaking a sweat to pick up 2 points. Regardless of PDO, Or Corsi, or whatever stat people want to throw out, that is a near perfect mid season game.

Canucks do sit back and play D if they are up in the third in their current system. I don't love that. They do give up shots and chances and rely on our goalies to make saves. That hurts metrics, 100%. They are also what 21-0 when leading after 2. That stat is far more telling than any metric out there, something must be working.

Canucks have been consistently very good this year, and while they are not a perfect team by any measure, they certainly look like as big a threat as any team out there.
 
Only without Oilers fans

Nice essay but you forget hockey is not baseball and there is more luck involved in hockey. More shots doesnt always translate to wins similar to how more saves doesnt translate into wins. You can use stats but to make it as a guarantee of what will happen in the future is foolish and dumb. You can bring up the stats but dont make predictions of what will happen next.
Lolololol oh god, the irony
 
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I said it can go three ways. But you seem to be guaranteeing that canucks will go down soon with confidence when its hard to predict at which point they will regress. Again its not me not understanding stats but you are using it inappropriately to forecast a collapse or regression soon when it could very well not be soon. Also some games make their underlying stats worst like the sens game last night when its clear watching them shows that Canucks were in control and won it the first 20 minutes.
Again, you demonstrate your lack of understanding.

I'm making an estimate based on the evidence and probability. You literally say I am "guaranteeing" something, when I literally am not. I'm using probabilistic terms such as "unlikely" or "likely". I could probably be more accurate and assign percentages.

You're accusing me of saying "nothing at all", yet your main contribution to this thread is saying that the Canucks could either get better, get worse, or stay the same with absolutely no confidence or probabilistic estimate in any direction. This IS saying nothing!
Honest question, and I don't mean to be confrontational in any way. Do you watch the Canucks play?

I look at a game like last night. I would assume that the Metrics do not favor the Canucks, I personally don't ever look or care.. They came out and blew the doors off the Sens real early and were up 5-0, then took their foot off the gas and were outplayed for chunks the rest of the way. Still won 6-3, no major injuries, and all our best players played 3-5 mins less than normal, Demko got some work in after not playing for 9 days. Head out now on a 7 game roadie after not breaking a sweat to pick up 2 points. Regardless of PDO, Or Corsi, or whatever stat people want to throw out, that is a near perfect mid season game.

Canucks do sit back and play D if they are up in the third in their current system. I don't love that. They do give up shots and chances and rely on our goalies to make saves. That hurts metrics, 100%. They are also what 21-0 when leading after 2. That stat is far more telling than any metric out there, something must be working.

Canucks have been consistently very good this year, and while they are not a perfect team by any measure, they certainly look like as big a threat as any team out there.
Yes. I watch most Canucks games and have been to multiple live in December. I also try to make a point to watch as many games of other teams as I can, to gain better perspective on the league.

My argument is not about last night's game, or any individual game. It's about the season as a whole so far. And in watching most of the games, and looking at their metrics, it is indisputable that the Canucks have had by far the vast majority of fortunate bounces go their way. Last night is an illustration of that.

You can read several other posts of mine. This does not mean I don't think the Canucks are a good team. Just a few posts up in this thread you can see me saying that I think the Canucks are a good team. A team that can control the scoring chances at roughly breakeven, but has elite goaltending and talented shooters and playmakers is a very threatening team, and clubs like BOS and NYR have shown this type of composition can remain an elite team over time.

However, for the Canucks to continue at this pace, you'd have to believe that the Canucks have the best combination of shooting efficiency and goaltending in NHL recorded history. I don't believe this.
 
Again, you demonstrate your lack of understanding.

I'm making an estimate based on the evidence and probability. You literally say I am "guaranteeing" something, when I literally am not. I'm using probabilistic terms such as "unlikely" or "likely". I could probably be more accurate and assign percentages.

You're accusing me of saying "nothing at all", yet your main contribution to this thread is saying that the Canucks could either get better, get worse, or stay the same with absolutely no confidence or probabilistic estimate in any direction. This IS saying nothing!

Yes. I watch most Canucks games and have been to multiple live in December. I also try to make a point to watch as many games of other teams as I can, to gain better perspective on the league.

My argument is not about last night's game, or any individual game. It's about the season as a whole so far. And in watching most of the games, and looking at their metrics, it is indisputable that the Canucks have had by far the vast majority of fortunate bounces go their way. Last night is an illustration of that.

You can read several other posts of mine. This does not mean I don't think the Canucks are a good team. Just a few posts up in this thread you can see me saying that I think the Canucks are a good team. A team that can control the scoring chances at roughly breakeven, but has elite goaltending and talented shooters and playmakers is a very threatening team, and clubs like BOS and NYR have shown this type of composition can remain an elite team over time.

However, for the Canucks to continue at this pace, you'd have to believe that the Canucks have the best combination of shooting efficiency and goaltending in NHL recorded history. I don't believe this.
Thank you, real good response.

I think the main factor that drives the Canucks PDO Stat is one:

Basically the Canucks are spending more time leading games than anyone I could see in the past 20 years. Peak Oilers in the 80's were then only team I saw that was higher. The gap is massive as to the rest of the league as well for this season, 2 mins more than 2nd, 3 mins more than 3rd, 4 mins more than 4th. For reference they spend 10 mins more per game leading than the Leafs. They haven't had to chase many games. They have had to play the game much different than most in that they have got out in front in many games with multi goal leads on a handful of shots, and then go into a defensive mode to finish the game. Naturally this leads to a higher shot and save%.

I get frustrated reading all these threads about the Canucks where some act as though they are the 2nd coming of the 76 Habs, and others shit all over them. Reality is they are a well built team that is well coached. They could go on a long playoff run just as easy as they could get bounced in round 1. It's been awesome regardless of where it goes from here.
 
About this PDO thing. Save percentage and shooting percentage calculation.

Someone help an old guy out here.

If the Canuck d men took a few extra muffin shots (say 3-5) from the blue line every game does this "normalize" their PDO. If thats the case its a horse shit gauge of a metric.
 
But why would you take any stats, static or otherwise? Stats either have value or they do not. Throwing out some stats because they are predictive is just subjective, what you consider static others might consider predictive.

Unless the stats are generated in some flawed way, the stats themselves are objective measures of something. This reads like you think static stats are not used to shit on or prop up teams, or to predict anything. People spam about their W-L record all the time and frequently use that to predict who the better team is.

At the end of the day, if you believe they are just historical snapshots then there is nothing to suggest that the Vancouver that beat Ottawa last night is better than Philly. The only thing that would matter would be their head to head record. It would be entirely irrelevant that Vancouver is considerably ahead of them in the standings and GD and anything else, because that amalgam of stats were generated by playing other teams. Thus by static stats, Vancouver is both better than every team they beat, and worse than every team they lost too. Sure, I guess that results in you living in the moment at any given time but it seems awfully convulted.

Edit - also it should be noted that your "static" stats are dynamic. Especially since you frequently tout the position in the standings. GF, GA, and win/loss frequently change. If a team did a full 180, they would drop like a rock or rise quickly in pretty well all of those stats. You can argue how likely a team is to do a 180, but that doesn't change the reality that if they did, their counting stats would get badly obliterated.
You put considerable effort into your post and I appreciate that. No BS on my part, and no sarcasm.

The thing is though, and as I have stated many times before, I just don't care that much about advanced, predictive stats, and I refuse to stop referring to them as predictive stats which may or may not prove to be right. I just enjoy watching the games. If one is using a snapshot in time to predict future outcomes, then they are predictive stats no matter who says they are not. The difference is that people make predictions of the future in one case, whereas people like me say, "This is where we stand now. Who knows where this will all lead?"

I appreciate your comment. You challenged and used no hyperbole and no ad hominem attacks. Just a solid opinion. But I have admitted that I don't understand advanced statistics all that well, nor do I even desire to. It's a chore for me. My right brain is pretty darn big, but my left brain rivals that of a squirrel. But I do retain enough of a balance between the two opposing forces that I understand the difference between using stats to predict the future, vs simply stating the present.
 
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About this PDO thing. Save percentage and shooting percentage calculation.

Someone help an old guy out here.

If the Canuck d men took a few extra muffin shots (say 3-5) from the blue line every game does this "normalize" their PDO. If thats the case its a horse shit gauge of a metric.
1. If they took an extra 15 no-danger shots it might.

2. No one is changing how they play to game their advanced stats.

This is a ridiculous criticism.
 
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1. If they took an extra 15 no-danger shots it might.

2. No one is changing how they play to game their advanced stats.

This is a ridiculous criticism.

Where did I say that they would purposely change their game alter this fraud of a stat?

They are averaging 3.84 GP..5v5 they have scored 94 goals. they do not have to take an extra 15 shots per game and the stat does not discriminate between high danger and no danger shots. A few muffin shots from the point and this 'stat' wouldnt even be a conversation piece for this team. So is it an indicator of luck or an indicator that they take less muffin shots than other teams?
 
Where did I say that they would purposely change their game alter this fraud of a stat?

They are averaging 3.84 GP..5v5 they have scored 94 goals. they do not have to take an extra 15 shots per game and the stat does not discriminate between high danger and no danger shots. A few muffin shots from the point and this 'stat' wouldnt even be a conversation piece for this team. So is it an indicator of luck or an indicator that they take less muffin shots than other teams?
Taking "more muffin shots" would, in fact, be changing how they play.

Teams and players do not change how they play to game PDO.

They've scored an inordinate amount of deflections, random bounces, and unscreened wristers this season. They've been fortunate. I don't know why people need to clutch their rose-coloured glasses to deny this.

They've also been good. Both can be true.
 
Taking "more muffin shots" would, in fact, be changing how they play.

Teams and players do not change how they play to game PDO.

They've scored an inordinate amount of deflections, random bounces, and unscreened wristers this season. They've been fortunate. I don't know why people need to clutch their rose-coloured glasses to deny this.

They've also been good. Both can be true.
I will say this again - im not implying that the team needs to change its style of play in order to influence an advanced stat (a ridiculous one in my opinion)

What makes all the "deflections, random bounces, and unscreened wristers" inordinate compared to other teams?

Hypothetical:
Vancouver has 4 out of 6 d men that take less shots than the average d man - a couple of these guys are like in the bottom 1/4 of the league... Juulsen is like bottom 3 of d men that have played more than 20 games . So if these guys had added an average of 3 meaningless shots per game to the shot total (altering the team shooting percentage) would all of the luck suddenly have been diminished? Its a hypothetical question.
 
I will say this again - im not implying that the team needs to change its style of play in order to influence an advanced stat (a ridiculous one in my opinion)

What makes all the "deflections, random bounces, and unscreened wristers" inordinate compared to other teams?

Hypothetical:
Vancouver has 4 out of 6 d men that take less shots than the average d man - a couple of these guys are like in the bottom 1/4 of the league... Juulsen is like bottom 3 of d men that have played more than 20 games . So if these guys had added an average of 3 meaningless shots per game to the shot total (altering the team shooting percentage) would all of the luck suddenly have been diminished? Its a hypothetical question.
Would it help your understanding to show you how Canucks shots rank in the league?

5on5 High danger shot attempts for per 60min: 22nd

5on5 mid danger shot attempts for per 60min: 23rd

5on5 low danger shot attempts for per 60min: 27th

Vancouver take less low danger shots from far out than the average team but they also get less dangerous shots from in close


also here to answer your hypothetical question:

Canucks take on average 26.08 5on5 shots a game with a shooting % of 12.27
NHL average is 29.4 shots for with a shooting % of 8.7

in order for canucks to average their shooting % they would need 36.8 5on5 shots per game. so they would have needed to take 10 extra 5on5 goalless shots per game .
 
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I will say this again - im not implying that the team needs to change its style of play in order to influence an advanced stat (a ridiculous one in my opinion)

What makes all the "deflections, random bounces, and unscreened wristers" inordinate compared to other teams?


Hypothetical:
Vancouver has 4 out of 6 d men that take less shots than the average d man - a couple of these guys are like in the bottom 1/4 of the league... Juulsen is like bottom 3 of d men that have played more than 20 games . So if these guys had added an average of 3 meaningless shots per game to the shot total (altering the team shooting percentage) would all of the luck suddenly have been diminished? Its a hypothetical question.
They are mostly random types of goals and they have scored far more than they should have been expected to based on the quality of chances.

Your hypothetical situation here makes no sense.
 
Would it help your understanding to show you how Canucks shots rank in the league?

5on5 High danger shot attempts for per 60min: 22nd

5on5 mid danger shot attempts for per 60min: 23rd

5on5 low danger shot attempts for per 60min: 27th
Do you have a break down of these shot attempts for....

Tied from start of game?
After scoring/giving up first goal?
Leading after 20/40?
Leading/Trailing by 1/2/3+ goals?

Because those stats would mean a lot more than just looking at danger shot attempts as a whole.

For example, if a guy has 50 goals but half of them are empty netters, is he really a 50 goal scorer, or a really good two way player who's playing on a really good team. Either way, he's a 50 goal scorer.
 
Would it help your understanding to show you how Canucks shots rank in the league?

5on5 High danger shot attempts for per 60min: 22nd

5on5 mid danger shot attempts for per 60min: 23rd

5on5 low danger shot attempts for per 60min: 27th

Vancouver take less low danger shots from far out than the average team but they also get less dangerous shots from in close


also here to answer your hypothetical question:

Canucks take on average 26.08 5on5 shots a game with a shooting % of 12.27
NHL average is 29.4 shots for with a shooting % of 8.7

in order for canucks to average their shooting % they would need 36.8 5on5 shots per game. so they would have needed to take 10 extra 5on5 goalless shots per game .

giphy.gif
 
Canucks are both good, and also have been blessed by the hockey gods this year. Both are true. That being said, i don't see them falling too far from graces and will be a playoff team this year... Probably not one of want to run into either as Demko is a game breaker. Something both the Canucks and Jets share in common.
 
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I will say this again - im not implying that the team needs to change its style of play in order to influence an advanced stat (a ridiculous one in my opinion)

What makes all the "deflections, random bounces, and unscreened wristers" inordinate compared to other teams?

Hypothetical:
Vancouver has 4 out of 6 d men that take less shots than the average d man - a couple of these guys are like in the bottom 1/4 of the league... Juulsen is like bottom 3 of d men that have played more than 20 games . So if these guys had added an average of 3 meaningless shots per game to the shot total (altering the team shooting percentage) would all of the luck suddenly have been diminished? Its a hypothetical question.
I might repeat some things that have already been said, but here's what I think of PDO.

First, PDO is a sustainability metric. This metric bases itself of the following premises :
1) League wide, SV% + SH% will be approximately 1.
2) Thus, the distribution of teams' PDO across the league should be centered at 1.
3) Given the number of teams, it should follow a normal distribution.
4) History shows teams generally end the season between 0.97 and 1.03, with some very rare exceptions.

As you can see by the calculation, PDO is a metric that shows how things HAVE BEEN. It's not, per se, a full proof predictive metric. It's important to mention this : Teams aren't good or bad because they have a high or low PDO. Rather, in general, good teams will have a higher PDO than bad teams. This explains the strong correlation between PDO and wins/standing points.

In general, it's either calculated at all strengths or at 5v5. Both of these provide some contextualization, but also lack a lot of contextualization.

Consequently, trying to "cheat" PDO by allowing weak goals (hypothetically) to lower it because it's too high won't change anything to how your team will perform. While not completely independent between each other (hot streaks, mental, injuries, etc.), you can see each game as being independent from each other in the same way a coin toss is independant from (i.e. its outcome is unaffected by) the previous toss. If you have 10 tails in a row, the probability of getting a tail on your next throw remains 50%. In this situation, we know the expected outcome. However, what you can expect is that if you continue playing 1000 more games, it's extremely unlikely that you'll have maintained a 65% tail rate, for example. It will be much closer to 50%.

With PDO, it's obviously more complexe as the "outcome" would be the PDO for a given game, which can fall within a wide, extended range. All we know is that better teams should (not "will") be expected to "outperform" the "expected". That's what history shows us, as stated previously. Teams that don't outperform the expected, in general, are still high in the standing generally have, as a basis, a very high expected outcome due to how they play (like the Hurricanes have been for a few years). What we also know is that the equivalent to that 50% for a coin toss should be a PDO of about 1.00±0.03 for a team's entire season.

One other important thing I should mention before going into the Canucks stuff and your hypothetical scenario is that systems naturally adjust, to a certain degree, to conversion rates. This is why some teams don't necessarily move in the standings despite having their PDO increase or decrease towards normality throughout a season. When you start converting less, you might generate more shots, and vice versa. This causes mitigation.

Finally, PDO can be both a team metric AND a player metric. In the case of players, it's very rare to see players finish outside of the 0.95-1.05 range, and outside of 0.97-1.03 over ~3 seasons. In a way, team PDO will be the weighted combination of its players'.

With that being said, let's analyse the hypothetical scenario you present. In it, yes, this would lower their PDO. As I mentionned before, though, the past is not garant of the future, and these 3 meaningful shots won't magically mean they can continue converting like they are otherwise. In this case, these shots won't affect individual player's on-ice PDO much, especially those that are exceeding expectations. Moreover, while you say "meaningless" shots, this notion doesn't really exist that much in hockey. I will however assume they're not strategic shots to create rebounds. From a standings point of view, these meaningless shots could hurt your team by offering the opponents the puck for a counter-attack. This is all moot though, because no team that is well coached will take meaningless shots for no reason other than being pressured to do so by the opponent.

In the case of the canucks, if we break down the PDO components, their goaltending is perfectly sustainable. It's their SH% that really drives up everything, and to my knowledge, it's by like 1.5% better than the 2nd best season SH% for a team since 07-08. This seems little, but that's quite a lot. Their global PDO as a result is the highest in the same period. While it's in no way a guarantee that they don't maintain their conversion rates, it's expected that their PDO finishes in a more "natural" range (remember that the Bruins did finish with a 1.04 PDO last year, 0.01 than the Canucks this year so far - so being outside of the normal range is not impossible). Shooting fatigue, opponents adapting, physical tiredness, injuries, etc. Reasons could be multiple and not just tied to luck. It could also be that their goalies start being terrible, although I wouldn't say that's the more likely scenario. The Canucks have a lot of talented players and I fully expect, if this regression is to happen, for it to have minimal impact on the standings. Like, they won't miss the playoffs just because of that. They'll likely start taking more shots, having more rebounds, etc. It's also possible that their PDO regresses simply due to a horrible 10 games streak and magically everything seems more "sustainable". That's the weakness of the lack of contextualization.

However, none of this removes the value of the insight PDO offers. Keyword : Insight. It's a tool amongst many others that you can use to "predict" if you so wish. I know people that use it in fantasy hockey with great success to get or drop players.

In the end, everything about that metric is organic. It just happens.
 
If people are still predicting for a Canucks collapse with Canucks being number 1 in the west and 2nd overall at halfway point, then i dont know what to say to those people. The team has shown enough to be called a legit playoff team.
You realize people saying their PDO is high doesn’t necessarily mean they have to crash so hard they’re a bad team. They could be genuinely improved and playing at an unsustainable pace
 

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