Speculation: Vancouver Canucks are asking for Kadri + Bozak or Kadri + Gardiner for Luongo

[donkeyy0]

Came in to camp out of shape according to staff and management to start the year. Theres the physical.

Defensively? Have you watched any Marlies games? The kid isn't trustworthy in his own end whatsoever.

To reel everyone back in... let's clarify here... I'm comparing trading Kadri to trading Grabovski.

It's just like I said about the Kessel/Couturier thing earlier...obviously right now talent wise it probably isn't even close. BUT, Kadri's next contract is gonna be like 1.5/2 tops.

He's got the potential to become a player superior to Grabovski imo (obviously I could be wrong there). If he matches Grabovski in terms of value it's a HUGE win, and even if winds up frittering away and never reaches Grabovski in terms of impact ability...it's not a significant cap cost.

Grabovski on the other hand, is being paid as though his absolute best years are the average. If he takes any steps back whatsoever, that's an awful deal. And even with him scoring 58pts a year, I'm not sure it's a deal I "like".

I don't think he's that bad defensively. He's not as good as Grabovski though. No doubt.

 

[LuLu]

Hahahaha on the main boards Flyers fans are saying that wouldn't even trade Couturier for Kessel straight up. This is some comedy.

No way they would do that. Kessel is NOT worth Couturier. He's UFA in 1.5 while Couturier is controlled for next 8 years. Couturier is one of the bright young stars in the NHL.

Just Google what Jagr said about Couturier. He compares the kid to Ron Francis.

 

[DaveT83*]

Grabp>Kadri

Straight up you keep Grabo every day of the week over Kadri.

That being said you'd get alot more by trading Grabo then you ever would Kadri. I'd have no problem with Kadri as our 2C ... So depending on what you could get in return you might look at holding on to a cheap Kadri and seeing what he can do and moving the more profitable Grabovski for help elsewhere than the 2C position.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

The problem with Kadri is that there is younger players who show more promise and have made an impact to their respective teams already. Kadri shows no effort to play defensive, and like I mentioned in a post earlier in a game against Hamilton it was highlighted how poor he hustles to back check or tie up his man. Kadri does have great vision and excellent hands, but that is all. Kadri has shown he wont back down in the offensive end, but the problem is and if he wants to play centre he has to skate north and south with better coverage. Kadri after 3 years still doesnt grasp this and therefore he is expendable IMO. Grabo is 29 but plays every night and hustles out there making an impact on the ice, you cant say that for Kadri, at least not at this time. I would trade him in a package for a centre who plays up and down and not float.

You don't watch Kadri. And yes I know you will say you do. But you don't.

 

[showtime8]

I have to really question the pieces that Vancouver is asking for.

If everyone seems to think that its Bozak and Kadri in the deal, where do they play? Kadri easily gets lost in that system and Bozak plays 20 games at the 2nd line centre until Kesler comes back and then gets bumped possibly to the third line? They aren't upgrades by any means to what they already have. If they ask for Gardiner, then Nonis doesn't pull the trigger (in my opinion).

Makes no sense whatsoever. So explain me their depth chart....

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
- Bozak or Kadri don't fit

Booth - Kesler - Raymond
- Raymond is gone after this season because of cap issues (IMO)

Higgins - Malhotra - Hansen
- Malhotra is dynamite on the draw and Higgins is a solid 3rd line player.

Lapierre - Weise - Kassian (whomever)
- No way you ask for a Bozak trade to put him on the 4th line

So to me, the logic isn't there. If I'm Gillis, I'm asking for Biggs, Percy, Ashton, etc. plus a late pick.

 

[CerebralDevil]

You don't watch Kadri. And yes I know you will say you do. But you don't.

Tell me where I'm wrong. Grabo is way better and more of a influence to the Leafs than Kadri.

 

[donkeyy0]

Why are people so worried about Grabovski's 5.5M cap hit? There are tons of worse contracts on our team that deserve a lot more attention than our only productive top 6 center's.

ie:

Komisarek 4.5M
Connolly 4.75M
Lombardi 3.5M

These are examples of overpaid players. Players who contribute practically nothing (or worse, negative) to our team but are paid like solid producers. On a 23 man roster the average cap hit should be 3M. At a 5.5M cap hit, Grabovski is paid only 12% of or cap space. Considering Grabovski has finished 3rd in goals, and 3rd in points the past two seasons as well as 1st and 2nd in TOI/G among centers over the same span of time, wouldn't you argue that Grabovski is a pretty big part of our team? Surely worth 2.5M more than the average player on our roster, considering he is anything but average.

Furthermore, we have 22M in cap space next season, so why are we even discussing the issue of cap when it's a non-issue altogether?

In my opinion you build a team like this...

Crosby 10m Neal 7m Malkin 9m

Phaneuf 6m (legit #1 defenceman)

Marc-Andre Fleury 5m (not absolutely elite. But very good)

Everybody else (2m avg)

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's not the way to build a team, obviously I'm exagerrating a bit here...obviously those specific players aren't available. The point is...you acquire absolutely elite talent and pay whatever it costs. The rest of the roster should consist of young guys on either ELCs or 2nd contracts, or Jay McClemment type guys filling out the bottom 6/bottom pairing.

Again, I think Grabovski is a good player. I don't think he's elite. I don't think he's a great deal at his salary. I don't hate having him on my team...BUT...if I were the GM of the Leafs, there wouldn't be a spot for him.

Edit: To keep this post on topic...Luongo wouldn't fit into that MAF slot simply because he's too old and wouldn't necessarily provide the "excellent" level of goaltending my imaginary team would need. Maybe it's passable if the rest of your team is able to make up for it. I don't know. Its just not how I would want to build my team. You don't need Grabovski making 5.5 on the second line, but you do need Bozak at 1.5-2.0, I'd DEFINITELY want Gardiner and Kadri on that team as well, providing cost effectiveness. No shot Gardiner gets moved any time soon.

 

[Phaneuffan3]

I'd absolutely keep Kadri over Grabovski. Grabovski is a good player who has assumed a bigger role than ideal on a bad team, but he's hardly someone you can't replace, especially with a talented first rounder with 3-4 years of grooming. When Grabs assumed this job, he was hardly accomplished himself, but grew into the player he is because we had no one else to play. Kadri has a lot of upside, higher than Grabs and needs an opportunity to grow into a position of responsibility on the Leafs. Add to the fact that Grabs is overpaid and his cap hit is the same as Luongo's, that's a perfect one for one salary/need trade. We're going to be better in net, so the team will be more secure and confident from the back end out and that is a better position for Kadri to step in as a full time top six centerman.

I have to agree with this. If we moved Grabo for Lu we would still have bozie as well as Connelly who could theoretically replace him for the year(barring injury). Another interesting player who I think many are prematurely writing off is lambo. He did not look all that impressive but you have to consider that he missed the full season prior to that. I still wouldn't mind giving him a shot on the second or third line. I believe that the time off from the lockout could be really helpful in getting him back to where he was pre concussion.

So I guess if we were to move Grabo we would still have 3 centres that fit in a 2/3 line role. Bozie seems to slot in at #1 then we could have Connolly, lambo and kadri fighting it out for the #2 and #3 spot. It's also muddied up a bit wih mcclement in there and steckle too.

 

[DaveT83*]

No way they would do that. Kessel is NOT worth Couturier. He's UFA in 1.5 while Couturier is controlled for next 8 years. Couturier is one of the bright young stars in the NHL.

Just Google what Jagr said about Couturier. He compares the kid to Ron Francis.

I think thats a good hockey trade - Couturier is a little more difficult to play against - not as explosive offensively but overall a more rounded hockey player.

Philly is already a very good defensive team - Kessel would give them a dynamite offence.

Of Course Toronto would want more based off what they paid to acquire him ...

 

[topched]

I hate when people don't follow our own prospects. Would be nice if some of these guys would watch some Marlies games once and a while. Going off info from months ago HAHA

Seen far more Marlies games than the majority of these boards. In person and on broadcasts.

I simply brought it up because if I'm banking on a prospect to "reach his potential" becoming a better player than someone who already has... Its tough for me personally to make a commitment to someone who couldn't make a commitment to himself.

People get so offended talking about Kadri. It was the same with Stajan, Wellwood, Colaiacovo, White and Schenn.

Sometimes we all need to take the leaf glasses off and try and be objective.

 

[topched]

I have to agree with this. If we moved Grabo for Lu we would still have bozie as well as Connelly who could theoretically replace him for the year(barring injury). Another interesting player who I think many are prematurely writing off is lambo. He did not look all that impressive but you have to consider that he missed the full season prior to that. I still wouldn't mind giving him a shot on the second or third line. I believe that the time off from the lockout could be really helpful in getting him back to where he was pre concussion.

So I guess if we were to move Grabo we would still have 3 centres that fit in a 2/3 line role. Bozie seems to slot in at #1 then we could have Connolly, lambo and kadri fighting it out for the #2 and #3 spot. It's also muddied up a bit wih mcclement in there and steckle too.

The issue isn't about this season. I could give a **** about the upcoming season.

Its more about evaluating over the next 4 years, is Kadri going to be a better player than Grabovski? For me its difficult to say.

Ideally you want to take this year and have Kadri play a full season... unfortunately if we want to bring in an impact player like Luongo, the decision needs to be made before that.

 

[Beleafer4]

I wouldnt trade grabbo. Just imagine our C depth:
Bozak-3rd liner
Connolly- soft 2nd liner. Doesnt fit here
Lombardi-soft 3rd liner. Doesnt fit here
kadri-prospect with the potential to be a top 6 player.

Prospects:
Colborne: friendly giant posting 3rd line numbers in the AHL
Greg Mckegg
Carrick
etc

It would set back our organization longterm as we would be missing 2 top 6 centers instead of 1.

 

[Phaneuffan3]

The issue isn't about this season. I could give a **** about the upcoming season.

Its more about evaluating over the next 4 years, is Kadri going to be a better player than Grabovski? For me its difficult to say.

Ideally you want to take this year and have Kadri play a full season... unfortunately if we want to bring in an impact player like Luongo, the decision needs to be made before that.

Where does kadri play for the full year in your scenario then? We have a logjam of #2/#3 c, eventually you have to clear dead space and make room for the kids. Kadri has the potential to be better than Grabo, Grabo is our most attractive trade chip. Deal him for a starting good if you can and ride out the shortened season with kadri, Connolly, lAmbo, mcclement and steckle. Who cares if we bottom out this year? Get a good pick and cut ties with the dead weight in the off season and go all in on a big ticket centre to play in front of kadri

 

[CerebralDevil]

I dont get it? People just post things like " you dont watch the games" and have no defination to their response. When broadcasters and TML management all say Kadri is weak defensively and he needs to develop that in the AHL, why the lame post. Plain and simple at this point and time Kadri doesnt show he is capable of playing centre on the 1st or 2nd lines. NHL especially in the EAST have big smart centres and Kadri would be lost out there in the defensive zone against the likes of Crosby,Malkin,Giroux,Richards,Spezza,Krejci,Seguin,Tavares,Stamkos,etc;..look at Bozak he gets flamed by these guys and Bozak is way better in his own end than Kadri. Offensively ya Kadri is good but look at the whole picture here. Face-offs he is weak, defense-weak. He isnt ready to play in the NHL at this time at centre, and when compared to Grabo he is far below that level. I would definately trade the guy in a package for a top tier centre cause thats what the LEafs are missing.

 

[HockeyThoughts]

I think thats a good hockey trade - Couturier is a little more difficult to play against - not as explosive offensively but overall a more rounded hockey player.

Philly is already a very good defensive team - Kessel would give them a dynamite offence.

Of Course Toronto would want more based off what they paid to acquire him ...

You must have missed last years first round of the playoffs..?

 

[HockeyThoughts]

I dont get it? People just post things like " you dont watch the games" and have no defination to their response. When broadcasters and TML management all say Kadri is weak defensively and he needs to develop that in the AHL, why the lame post. Plain and simple at this point and time Kadri doesnt show he is capable of playing centre on the 1st or 2nd lines. NHL especially in the EAST have big smart centres and Kadri would be lost out there in the defensive zone against the likes of Crosby,Malkin,Giroux,Richards,Spezza,Krejci,Seguin,Tavares,Stamkos,etc;..look at Bozak he gets flamed by these guys and Bozak is way better in his own end than Kadri. Offensively ya Kadri is good but look at the whole picture here. Face-offs he is weak, defense-weak. He isnt ready to play in the NHL at this time at centre, and when compared to Grabo he is far below that level. I would definately trade the guy in a package for a top tier centre cause thats what the LEafs are missing.

The bolded are all centers with tons of offensive skill who started in the NHL with sub-par to downright awful defensive games. Through a mix of sheltered offensive minutes and playing bottom 6 minutes these players were given the chance to succeed offensively with the club while the coaches worked on developing their defensive games.

Very poor examples on your part.

 

[Stephen]

The problem with Kadri is that there is younger players who show more promise and have made an impact to their respective teams already. Kadri shows no effort to play defensive, and like I mentioned in a post earlier in a game against Hamilton it was highlighted how poor he hustles to back check or tie up his man. Kadri does have great vision and excellent hands, but that is all. Kadri has shown he wont back down in the offensive end, but the problem is and if he wants to play centre he has to skate north and south with better coverage. Kadri after 3 years still doesnt grasp this and therefore he is expendable IMO. Grabo is 29 but plays every night and hustles out there making an impact on the ice, you cant say that for Kadri, at least not at this time. I would trade him in a package for a centre who plays up and down and not float.

Grabs is hardly a Selke candidate himself. Watch his forechecks where he goes deep in the opposing end, doesn't make any physical contact and takes a wide loop back to his own zone. Kadri has more offensive upside. I'd just as soon benefit from his talents and let him grow as a player instead of nitpicking and expecting perfection.

Grabs was once accused of being a lazy one way cancer once upon a time too when he first got here. If you're going to commit to a rebuild, choose youth. Grabovski is no more integral to the future and present of this team as Kris Versteeg was. There's nothing special about him. On a team as bad as ours, he's just a good player but completely disposable.

 

[topched]

Where does kadri play for the full year in your scenario then? We have a logjam of #2/#3 c, eventually you have to clear dead space and make room for the kids. Kadri has the potential to be better than Grabo, Grabo is our most attractive trade chip. Deal him for a starting good if you can and ride out the shortened season with kadri, Connolly, lAmbo, mcclement and steckle. Who cares if we bottom out this year? Get a good pick and cut ties with the dead weight in the off season and go all in on a big ticket centre to play in front of kadri

1. Kadri can play C or the wing. We've got a glaring hole between Kessel and Lupul. We've also got a wing spot on the 2nd line along side Grabo, and likely beside JVR. (Kulemin would move down to the 3rd line).

2. You NEVER clear dead space for "the kids". You wait until the kids have earned their spot and then you make a move once you've proven that you have an excess of something. See: Cory Schneider and Roberto Luongo or Claude Giroux and Mike Richards. If you don't do that you're putting to much reliance on a young player panning out.

3. Grabo is our most attrative trade chip? Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Rielly, Lupul and Liles come to mind. If we're gonna get into trading proven commodities that are part of our "core" you might aswell deal from positions of strength, not ones where we are starving for talent like C.

4. Let me tell you that Grabo or no Grabo we're looking at an ugly season. Why would you move out your best proven C, bank on a guy who hasn't produced in the NHL so far, and deplete your C depth. You realize that you just listed guys (Connolly, Lambo, Steckel and Bozak) who are all expiring contracts. That means next season we've got 1 C in place (Kadri) who may not even be better than any of the afformentioned expriring contracts (2 if you count 4th liner Mcclement). Disaster written all over it.

 

[CerebralDevil]

Grabs is hardly a Selke candidate himself. Watch his forechecks where he goes deep in the opposing end, doesn't make any physical contact and takes a wide loop back to his own zone. Kadri has more offensive upside. I'd just as soon benefit from his talents and let him grow as a player instead of nitpicking and expecting perfection.
Grabs was once accused of being a lazy one way cancer once upon a time too when he first got here. If you're going to commit to a rebuild, choose youth.

Ya I do remember that when he left MTL, all I'm saying why trade a solid #2 centre for a unknown at this point. Grabo turned his game around and the Leafs need a #1 centre. Now if the Leafs trade Grabo for a guy like Getz, Stasny, O'Reilly or any other #1 than ya do it but dont rely on a kid that hasnt shown anything yet to make an impact at centre.

 

[Nyax]

The ball is totally in the Leafs (or other interested teams if there really are any) court here. The Canucks are clearly desperate to get out from under that contract. There is no need for the Leafs to give up a Kadri, Gardiner or a 1st round pick. Bozak and Colborne is as much as I would give. Maybe throw in Blacker, but no more.

I'd prefer they don't trade for Luongo period. Play Reimer and hope he gets back to his rookie form and if not go after Mike Smith in the offseason or if not Smith maybe Backstrom. I just think Luongo in Toronto will end up being a disaster.

 

[donkeyy0]

1. Kadri can play C or the wing. We've got a glaring hole between Kessel and Lupul. We've also got a wing spot on the 2nd line along side Grabo, and likely beside JVR. (Kulemin would move down to the 3rd line).

2. You NEVER clear dead space for "the kids". You wait until the kids have earned their spot and then you make a move once you've proven that you have an excess of something. See: Cory Schneider and Roberto Luongo or Claude Giroux and Mike Richards. If you don't do that you're putting to much reliance on a young player panning out.

3. Grabo is our most attrative trade chip? Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Rielly, Lupul and Liles come to mind. If we're gonna get into trading proven commodities that are part of our "core" you might aswell deal from positions of strength, not ones where we are starving for talent like C.

4. Let me tell you that Grabo or no Grabo we're looking at an ugly season. Why would you move out your best proven C, bank on a guy who hasn't produced in the NHL so far, and deplete your C depth. You realize that you just listed guys (Connolly, Lambo, Steckel and Bozak) who are all expiring contracts. That means next season we've got 1 C in place (Kadri) who may not even be better than any of the afformentioned expriring contracts (2 if you count 4th liner Mcclement). Disaster written all over it.

I can agree with this. Like I said...personally I'd rather move Grabo than Kadri but it would be an enormous risk.

 

[topched]

The ball is totally in the Leafs (or other interested teams if there really are any) court here. The Canucks are clearly desperate to get out from under that contract. There is no need for the Leafs to give up a Kadri, Gardiner or a 1st round pick. Bozak and Colborne is as much as I would give. Maybe throw in Blacker, but no more.

I'd prefer they don't trade for Luongo period. Play Reimer and hope he gets back to his rookie form and if not go after Mike Smith in the offseason or if not Smith maybe Backstrom. I just think Luongo in Toronto will end up being a disaster.

Agree here. The best course of action may be to sit back and wait. See what you've got in your young players... trade away assets at the deadline and position this team well to try and make a splash in the offseason.

 

[donkeyy0]

Agree here. The best course of action may be to sit back and wait. See what you've got in your young players... trade away assets at the deadline and position this team well to try and make a splash in the offseason.

Ya right? I mean, maybe Vancouver moves Luongo soon (to a team that's not Toronto), but based on what we've heard it would likely be at the expense of Bryzgalov (who is a similar situation)...who's to say one of those two goalies aren't available after the season has started? Why rush the deal now before you know what you've got with this roster?

 

[dberezin]

everyone saying Vancouver would accept Grabovksi instead of Kadri seems to forget that Grabovski's cap hit is slightly higher than Lu's; therefore it wouldn't help the Canucks cap situation now or in the future 5 years.

when people say Kadri is better or will be better than Grabovski, I have to wonder what they're basing it on. Grabovski is solid on both sides of the puck, has explosive speed, improves his linemates (imo, he should be with Kessel/Lupul every game), and out-scored Mike Richards and Ryan Getzlaf, who each have a very similar cap hit.

for many of you, Kadri's "high potential" seems tied to nothing other than he was drafted 7th, so he's gotta be good. it's the same thing fans said about Filatov(6th), Hamill(8th), James Sheppard(9th), Skille(7th), Olesz(7th), and so on.

Kadri had potential. He's 22, and though the questions around his work ethic and defensive play have always been there, the fact that he's only been an above average offensive player in the AHL is more worrying. now's the time to trade him, before his value completely runs out.

 

[Stephen]

Ya I do remember that when he left MTL, all I'm saying why trade a solid #2 centre for a unknown at this point. Grabo turned his game around and the Leafs need a #1 centre. Now if the Leafs trade Grabo for a guy like Getz, Stasny, O'Reilly or any other #1 than ya do it but dont rely on a kid that hasnt shown anything yet to make an impact at centre.

No, we're trading a number 2 center for a goalie who is still in the top ten in the NHL.
That's a good deal.

What we're doing is replacing him with a top 7 pick who has been groomed for four years by this organization, who is currently a PPG AHL performer, who needs to mature and work on his game. That's a move which addresses an organizational weakness and opens up a spot for the youth movement.

I fully admit Kadri might not work out, but it's a calculated risk and I'm not that high on Grabovski at all.