Confirmed with Link: [VAN/NYR] JT Miller, Erik Brannstrom, & Jackson Dorrington for Filip Chytil, Victor Mancini, and 1st 2025 (Top-13 Protected, Unprotected after)

[F A N]

Of course I can and have. But you are not an honest actor. I know your tactics.

What kind of an answer are you looking for on Räty's training?

His physical tools did not improve because his training was not planned correctly. This is what I am talking about.

He became better at ice hockey. Especially faceoffs.

I'm not using any tactics. You make these big claims using vague language and I don't want to respond without understanding what you mean. Just take what you wrote here, "His physical tools did not improve because his training was not planned correctly." Do you realize how vague that is? Plain reading suggests that what you're saying is that Raty didn't improve because the Canucks didn't give him a proper plan for the summer.

Also, now you're saying he became better at ice hockey but you were saying he was not training properly because he didn't know how to. Are you saying training doesn't matter or did Raty miraculously get better by training aimlessly?

f***. Here we go again. I know you intentionally bog down these conversations. Be ready for me to bail out the moment you do it.

Bog down "these conversations?" What conversations? Like this:

Or EP just found him self in the hands of a quack.

Or. It was the doings of our very own sports medicine staff from the Canucks organisation.

 

[ExarKun80]

As much as we got fleeced, this trade also doesn't make sense for the rangers, this is a trade you should be doing when you are contending, the rangers is no where near contending for the cup.

We got fleeced due to Miller's reputation and JR's impatience. Miller had to go but JR traded him when his value was all time low and not before going to the media to throw both Miller and Skinny under the bus to cover his ass for his poor negociating skills.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I'm not using any tactics. You make these big claims using vague language and I don't want to respond without understanding what you mean. Just take what you wrote here, "His physical tools did not improve because his training was not planned correctly." Do you realize how vague that is? Plain reading suggests that what you're saying is that Raty didn't improve because the Canucks didn't give him a proper plan for the summer.

Im not going to be so specific that people can tell where my source of information is.

Again. Explain what kind of an answer you would find satisfying? Please be extremely specific so we dont have to go 500 times back and forth because you find a comma in the wrong place.

Also, now you're saying he became better at ice hockey but you were saying he was not training properly because he didn't know how to. Are you saying training doesn't matter or did Raty miraculously get better by training aimlessly?

No.

You misunderstand my earlier point.

I am talking about his physical training specifically.
- speed, power, mobility etc.

Bog down "these conversations?" What conversations? Like this:

I am just speculating on what the reasons might be that he wasnt able to fix his knee issue during the summer.

Why are you having trouble comprehending this?

Seriously. This is exactly what Im talking about. ... edit wait. Did you just do the thing...? You did didnt you. And I fell for it.

 

[F A N]

Im not going to be so specific that people can tell where my source of information is.

Right because your source in Finland would be exposed here for being wrong.

Again. Explain what kind of an answer you would find satisfying? Please be extremely specific so we dont have to go 500 times back and forth because you find a comma in the wrong place.

I'm just asking you to either use English that we can understand or explain what you mean.

No.

You misunderstand my earlier point.

I am talking about his physical training specifically.
- speed, power, mobility etc.

So you're saying Raty didn't improve any of that yet he improved as a hockey player to go from where he was last season to making the Canucks opening night roster?

I am just speculating on what the reasons might be that he wasnt able to fix his knee issue during the summer.

Why are you having trouble comprehending this?

Like Raty, you're appear to be suggesting that the Canucks' training AND medical staff are incompetent but when I ask you if that's what you're suggesting you shy away.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I'm just asking you to either use English that we can understand or explain what you mean.

Tell me what you are looking for.

Be EXTREMELY specific.

edit. actually Ill remover everything else. Lets nail this one thing down.


Tell me what kind of an answer you are looking for.

 

[F A N]

Tell me what you are looking for.

Be EXTREMELY specific.

edit. actually Ill remover everything else. Lets nail this one thing down.


Tell me what kind of an answer you are looking for.

Umm... I'm merely looking to understand the point you're trying to make because it is not easily understood by what you wrote. That's all I was doing but somehow asking you to explain/clarify what you meant is taken by you as some sort of affront and offence.

To be specific, you make pompous statements about how 99,999999% of athletes don't have the education to work on things properly (while seemingly suggest that you do) and then you don't think you need to explain yourself when asked to explain what you mean and what education is lacking.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Umm... I'm merely looking to understand the point you're trying to make because it is not easily understood by what you wrote. That's all I was doing but somehow asking you to explain/clarify what you meant is taken by you as some sort of affront and offence.

To be specific, you make pompous statements about how 99,999999% of athletes don't have the education to work on things properly (while seemingly suggest that you do) and then don't think you don't need to explain yourself when asked to explain what you mean and what education is lacking.

There isn't anything "pompous" or even controversial about that statement.

You are making a false assumption that it should be expected that they can program their own training.

 

[F A N]

There isn't anything "pompous" or even controversial about that statement.

You are making a false assumption that it should he expected that they can program their own training.

So what does it mean to "program their own training" and what are Canucks players and prospects doing wrong? You won't explain it would you?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

So what does it mean to "program their own training" and what are Canucks players and prospects doing wrong? You won't explain it would you?

"Programming your own training" typically refers to designing and planning your own workout or fitness routine, rather than following a pre-made plan from someone else. It involves determining the exercises, sets, reps, rest intervals, and progression based on your specific goals (e.g., strength, endurance, muscle growth, or weight loss). It gives you more control over your fitness journey and allows you to tailor the routine to fit your needs, preferences, and schedule.

It can also apply to other areas like mental or skill-based training, where you're creating a structure to improve a specific ability or skill, whether it's in sports, music, or other areas.

 

[ahmon]

Interesting that Friedman is also relaying the information that the Canucks were interested in Drew Fortescue instead of Mancini. But Rangers wouldn't budge.

I feel Fortescue has potential to be a very good defensive top 4 dman.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I think it’s clear Miller can expect too much from his teammates, and I think it’s clear that Miller was hard on Pettersson. What you are glossing over is that, at least initially, there appears to be good reason for this. Allvin has already confirmed Pettersson was not preparing well enough and putting in the kind of effort required to succeed, and Pettersson has basically agreed. And this accords with the Halford and Brough rumour that Pettersson came into camp out of shape.

So, Pettersson isn’t this totally innocent party as you make him out to be. Players hold other players accountable. This is reasonable. And it appears that a lot of the friction came from Miller trying to hold Pettersson accountable for his lack of preparation and resulting poor play. And that in and of itself isn’t unreasonable.

Personally, I think Miller kept on being hard on Pettersson and their relationship continued to degrade, coaching staff stepped in and told him to knock it off, he didn’t, and that led to the benching and LOA.

If that’s what happened, who is more to blame? Personally, I blame both. I still like Pettersson’s personality more, but I don’t really blame Miller in that context, at least initially. Pettersson sort of started the problem, and Miler certainly ended it. Lots of blame to go around.

I think it’s clear Miller expects a lot of his teammates and is hard on them. And he’s a strong personality. It seems also clear that he’s popular in the room.

I question how popular Miller ever was in the room. (Robinson on Hughes and Demko not being impressed, Horvat, the LOA, his past etc...)

Nobody has said Pettersson is without fault. Nobody. His play has slipped. That's his failing. But his play is unlikely to have disrupted the room to such an extent. It has to be something over and above the tension a struggling star would cause. There's almost nothing on that front though.

Conversely, there's a lot to suggest Miller went overboard with the natural accountability teammates would have for each other.

Given those two parameters, how is Pettersson seen as equally culpable in disrupting the room? Forget full innocence. There would be other players like Hughes holding him accountable. Yet none caused a stir like Miller...

Allvin can talk all he wants about preparation. As I said, he wasn't saying anything after twig Pettersson put up 102 points. Now that Pettersson has failed though, improving physically is worth a shot. Why not?

That’s actually not a fact. The only fact is that they signed Miller and traded Horvat. And I have already given reasons for why that may have been. You don’t need to read in prioritization, although that may have been the case.

I mean, that’s just a rumour. And if it’s true, it’s more likely that it was coaching vs. management. But I agree it would be a dumb thing to do in the context if true. Personally, I doubt it, given how long this issue has been going on for.

I mean, he easily could have become complacent after that season or signing his big contract. Just because your are mentally dialed in and preparing at one point doesn’t mean you always will.

This just seems like a conspiracy theory that’s not really worth addressing on its merits.

The fact, if we are using rumours (which you've done above), is that they re-signed Miller first at a higher cap hit than what Horvat's projected ask was in the offseason. That indicates which one was the priority.

You think the coach is going to green light Miller against Petterson without management's OK? I'm laughing now...

I'm saying Pettersson could be mentally dialed in, physically weak, and still dominate. Which means, the physical preparation Allvin wants is superfluous. It's only now a talking point because he's failing to dominate. Not that it ever was a requirement for him to succeed.

 

[VanJack]

I guess we'll never know all the 'ins and outs' of the Miller deal.

But I see one beat writer picked up by the Hockey Writers website is reporting that the Canucks themselves had an internal, players-only team meeting a couple of months back to try and get Miller and Pettersson back on track. But I suspect it might also have had something to do with Miller's prickly relationship with other players in the room--something Allvin hinted at in his press conference.

And when any change failed to happen, Miller took his leave of absence to decide his future in Vancouver. And once he'd come back with his mind made up, the trade wheels starting turning.

That scenario has a ring of truth to it for me. So all the so-called 'insider reports' that the Canucks were weighing deals for either Pettersson or Miller, and that one of them was heading out of town, turned out to just 'spin'. It was Miller on the block from the very beginning.

And there's another report that the deal the Rangers and Canucks finally agreed on, was the same deal the Canucks wanted two months ago. I don't know if the sticking point then was Mancini or the first round draft pick. But whatever it was, the Rangers finally 'blinked and the deal got done.

I suspect that sometimes the 'insiders' like Seravalli and Friedmann, really don't have a clue what is really going on.

 

[Isi]

we will either never know the full story, or larry brooks will spill the beans whenever jt miller has a rough spell in new york

 

[Oliewud]

canucks will win this trade

 

[AzNightmare]

A thing that bothers me is that JR is getting a free pass for the Horvat saga. He bungled that even worse than the Miller saga. Bo was having an insane season and we only got Beauvillier(garbage)+Raty and a 3rd . Right now that trade has become Bo Horvat for Raty, a 3rd and 5th. Uncle Lou may be a little senile but he took JR to the clearners. If Jimbo made that trade he would have been crucified here and i hated Jimbo with passion.

Didn't we also get a 1st, which was flipped for Hronek?
If I recall, it was basically Horvat for Hronek.

 

[ExarKun80]

Didn't we also get a 1st, which was flipped for Hronek?
If I recall, it was basically Horvat for Hronek.

You are right. I forgot about that pick. It makes sense now. I was under the wrong impression that we've used our pick for Hronek but we drafted Willander in the first round with our pick.

 

[AzNightmare]

You are right. I forgot about that pick. It makes sense now.

You're gonna forget about the 1st on the most recent trade too.
It got flipped so fast, almost forget we had it

 

[F A N]

"Programming your own training" typically refers to designing and planning your own workout or fitness routine, rather than following a pre-made plan from someone else. It involves determining the exercises, sets, reps, rest intervals, and progression based on your specific goals (e.g., strength, endurance, muscle growth, or weight loss). It gives you more control over your fitness journey and allows you to tailor the routine to fit your needs, preferences, and schedule.

It can also apply to other areas like mental or skill-based training, where you're creating a structure to improve a specific ability or skill, whether it's in sports, music, or other areas.

There. It isn't so hard to explain what you mean for those of us less educated in this area eh?

And what follows is the gist of the point I have been making. You seem inclined to simply say 99+% of NHL players don't know how to train properly and the NHL training and development staff also don't know how to teach/get their players to train properly (the only conclusion drawn from your point about 99+% of NHL players do not know how to train properly). Even assume that what you say is true your point is less impactful as we're dealing with how a hockey player is training relative to others.

NHL players are essentially left on their own to train in the offseason. Most do work with a trainer. Many buddy up. There's 0% chance that an NHL player or prospect on the cusp has not received world class (hockey) training before. Players attend camps and should have received world class training as a member of the Vancouver Canucks. Like I said, if the trainer they are working in the summer or the fascilities they are working in over the summer isn't adequate the players should possess the prerequisite education to know. There are also hockey related skills that isn't just testing your blood for peak recovery. You seem to not be interested in acknowledging that and instead simply spew stuff like Ratay doesn't know how to train properly and is skating around aimlessly and not improving and that's the end of the discussion. Yet you agree that he improved as a hockey player over the summer.

No player should be "programming [their] own training." The Canucks training and devlopment staff should be leaving their players and prospects with a training plan or review the one tha they intend to follow. The Canucks also should know where the players' fitness level is at to adjust the program to his needs. Mynio is not going to be doing the same weights and sets as Tyler Myers. And if this is wholely inadequate then the discussion is how to fix it. Not just say oh Finland sucks.

 

[ExarKun80]

canucks will win this trade

Miller had to go but this is a trade that we will never win unless Cythil becomes a first line center. If Mancini becomes a reliable 3rd pair defender that's a bonus.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

There. It isn't so hard to explain what you mean for those of us less educated in this area eh?

And what follows is the gist of the point I have been making. You seem inclined to simply say 99+% of NHL players don't know how to train properly and the NHL training and development staff also don't know how to teach/get their players to train properly (the only conclusion drawn from your point about 99+% of NHL players do not know how to train properly). Even assume that what you say is true your point is less impactful as we're dealing with how a hockey player is training relative to others.

NHL players are essentially left on their own to train in the offseason. Most do work with a trainer. Many buddy up. There's 0% chance that an NHL player or prospect on the cusp has not received world class (hockey) training before. Players attend camps and should have received world class training as a member of the Vancouver Canucks. Like I said, if the trainer they are working in the summer or the fascilities they are working in over the summer isn't adequate the players should possess the prerequisite education to know. There are also hockey related skills that isn't just testing your blood for peak recovery. You seem to not be interested in acknowledging that and instead simply spew stuff like Ratay doesn't know how to train properly and is skating around aimlessly and not improving and that's the end of the discussion. Yet you agree that he improved as a hockey player over the summer.

• Lack of Expertise in Training Science:
  NHL players are experts in playing hockey, not exercise science, biomechanics, or sports performance programming. While they may pick up knowledge over time, understanding periodization, recovery optimization, or advanced strength training protocols requires specialized education. Expecting them to self-assess these aspects is like asking a pilot to design the airplane.
• Bias in Self-Evaluation:
  Athletes often equate hard work with effective work. A player may feel their training was productive if they pushed themselves physically, but without the proper benchmarks or assessments, they can't accurately judge whether the work led to the best possible gains.
• Training Complexity:
  Optimal training for elite athletes involves balancing strength, conditioning, mobility, injury prevention, and sport-specific skills. Evaluating whether all these elements are properly integrated—and progressing appropriately—is a complex task that requires a multidisciplinary approach.
• Cognitive Load and Focus:
  NHL players already face significant mental and physical demands during the season. Their focus in the offseason should be on physical recovery, skill development, and adherence to a professionally crafted program—not the stress of determining whether their regimen is scientifically sound.
• Risk of Injury and Overtraining:
  Without expert guidance, players are at higher risk of overtraining, undertraining, or focusing too much on the wrong elements. This can lead to chronic injuries, such as stress fractures (which are on the rise among young athletes). Elite players need professionals who can monitor their load and recovery objectively.
• Inconsistent Training Quality:
  Just because a player has access to "world-class" resources doesn't mean those resources are being used optimally. Trainers vary in quality, and facilities may be excellent for one aspect of training but lack in another. Players may not have the tools to discern these discrepancies.
• Role of Team Responsibility:
  NHL organizations invest millions of dollars in players. It's in their best interest to ensure that offseason training aligns with the player’s long-term development and readiness for the next season. Leaving this entirely to the player undermines that investment.

No player should be "programming [their] own training." The Canucks training and devlopment staff should be leaving their players and prospects with a training plan or review the one tha they intend to follow. The Canucks also should know where the players' fitness level is at to adjust the program to his needs. Mynio is not going to be doing the same weights and sets as Tyler Myers. And if this is wholely inadequate then the discussion is how to fix it. Not just say oh Finland sucks.

Honestly this falls mostly on you. I really have no clue what you thought or didn't think programming training means.

You still seem to think they should be able to assess the quality of their summer training. So why this is not the case, I tried to explain in the first part of my post.

Why I am not addressing hockey skills training in relation to Finnish coaching is because I think it is mostly at an adequate level. Unlike the physical training that is behind the rest of the world by a lot.

Ask more specific questions again and I will try to answer.

 

[iFan]

Miller had to go but this is a trade that we will never win unless Cythil becomes a first line center. If Mancini becomes a reliable 3rd pair defender that's a bonus.

if Cythil becomes a solid 2nd line center, stays healthy and M Pettersson re-signs and holds down the 2nd pair we can come out of that trade just fine

 

[Another Empty Netter]

If 40 bounces back that’s all I need to know

 

[F A N]

• Lack of Expertise in Training Science:
  NHL players are experts in playing hockey, not exercise science, biomechanics, or sports performance programming. While they may pick up knowledge over time, understanding periodization, recovery optimization, or advanced strength training protocols requires specialized education. Expecting them to self-assess these aspects is like asking a pilot to design the airplane.
• Bias in Self-Evaluation:
  Athletes often equate hard work with effective work. A player may feel their training was productive if they pushed themselves physically, but without the proper benchmarks or assessments, they can't accurately judge whether the work led to the best possible gains.
• Training Complexity:
  Optimal training for elite athletes involves balancing strength, conditioning, mobility, injury prevention, and sport-specific skills. Evaluating whether all these elements are properly integrated—and progressing appropriately—is a complex task that requires a multidisciplinary approach.
• Cognitive Load and Focus:
  NHL players already face significant mental and physical demands during the season. Their focus in the offseason should be on physical recovery, skill development, and adherence to a professionally crafted program—not the stress of determining whether their regimen is scientifically sound.
• Risk of Injury and Overtraining:
  Without expert guidance, players are at higher risk of overtraining, undertraining, or focusing too much on the wrong elements. This can lead to chronic injuries, such as stress fractures (which are on the rise among young athletes). Elite players need professionals who can monitor their load and recovery objectively.
• Inconsistent Training Quality:
  Just because a player has access to "world-class" resources doesn't mean those resources are being used optimally. Trainers vary in quality, and facilities may be excellent for one aspect of training but lack in another. Players may not have the tools to discern these discrepancies.
• Role of Team Responsibility:
  NHL organizations invest millions of dollars in players. It's in their best interest to ensure that offseason training aligns with the player’s long-term development and readiness for the next season. Leaving this entirely to the player undermines that investment.

I don't disagree with any of this. But your last sentence: "Leaving this entirely to the player undermines that investment."

First off, you do understand that there is a CBA that limits what the team can do/control in the off season right? Second off all, nobody is saying leave everything to the player. I've said multiple times that the Canucks should have a "program" for the players to follow and there's no evidence that the Canucks don't have a "plan" for the players. Teams have also preferred to get a player out of college quicker so that they can exercise more control over their in training. I've also said multiple times, with reference to Raty, that it was his 2nd summer as part of the Canucks organization and 3rd summer in a NHL organization. If it's a matter of putting him with a good trainer the Canucks should have the resources to find one (e.g. call up Sami Salo and ask). Somebody must know someone in Finland.

You're simply spewing some general (albeit industry related) things but you're not saying what the Canucks are doing wrong or if they are doing wrong. I can tell you some general work out exercises that NHL players should be doing too and the importance of it but so what?

Honestly this falls mostly on you. I really have no clue what you thought or didn't think programming training means.

Yes. Because you assume most people on here knows this stuff because really it's basic stuff and not expertise that you have?

You still seem to think they should be able to assess the quality of their summer training. So why this is not the case, I tried to explain in the first part of my post.

But you clearly are/were without seeing Raty's workout. So if you don't think the Canucks can assess the quality of his summer training why can you?

Why I am not addressing hockey skills training in relation to Finnish coaching is because I think it is mostly at an adequate level. Unlike the physical training that is behind the rest of the world by a lot.

And at the end of the day, the important thing is improving as a hockey player.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I don't disagree with any of this. But your last sentence: "Leaving this entirely to the player undermines that investment."

First off, you do understand that there is a CBA that limits what the team can do/control in the off season right? Second off all, nobody is saying leave everything to the player. I've said multiple times that the Canucks should have a "program" for the players to follow and there's no evidence that the Canucks don't have a "plan" for the players. Teams have also preferred to get a player out of college quicker so that they can exercise more control over their in training.

I should have been clearer that when I said "leaving this entirely to the player," I meant that the player's offseason training should still be structured and monitored within the framework allowed by the CBA.

I've also said multiple times, with reference to Raty, that it was his 2nd summer as part of the Canucks organization and 3rd summer in a NHL organization. If it's a matter of putting him with a good trainer the Canucks should have the resources to find one (e.g. call up Sami Salo and ask). Somebody must know someone in Finland.

Yes they should.
What is currently happening is that his father plans the training.

You're simply spewing some general (albeit industry related) things but you're not saying what the Canucks are doing wrong or if they are doing wrong. I can tell you some general work out exercises that NHL players should be doing too and the importance of it but so what?

As for the Canucks having a "program," I'm sure they do have some kind of plan in place for players to follow, but the key question is whether it’s as individualized and well-integrated as it needs to be. I’ve read that in some cases, teams provide generic off-season templates that don’t always account for the specific needs of each player—especially in terms of tailoring programs based on the player’s goals and areas of improvement.

Mostly they set generic goals like: "We want you to get stronger protecting the puck and work on penalty kill." And then the athlete seeks out what ever training they wish to try to accomplish those goals.

Yes. Because you assume most people on here knows this stuff because really it's basic stuff and not expertise that you have?


But you clearly are/were without seeing Raty's workout. So if you don't think the Canucks can assess the quality of his summer training why can you?

I live like 500 meters from where he trains.

I know the programs they use. I know how many stress fractures these programs have caused their U18 players. Ive worked with two who have had stress fractures in their lumbar spine from the offseason training.

And at the end of the day, the important thing is improving as a hockey player.

Do you not understand what I'm saying?

Important part is that the physical training Aatu Räty and many other finnish players recieve in finland because of outdated training methods used by the top teams in Finland is holding said players physical development back.

Changing the subject to whether he got better at faceoffs during the summer or not... I mean. You can talk about that if you want but dont quote me in those posts.