Confirmed Trade: [VAN/CGY] Elias Lindholm for Andrei Kuzmenko, Hunter Brzustewicz, Joni Jurmo, 2024 1st, cond. 2024 4th

[Rowlet]

So 2 open spots to compete for on the right side alone.

You would think after drafting Podzolkin and Juolevi recently Canucks fans would be just a little humble. But the Canucks are having their first good season in a long time so the fan arrogance is through the roof.

Doesn't matter how many spots were open if the player gives up and wants to be traded instead

 

[krutovsdonut]

With all your hockey education can you explain why Lindholm has been so terrible?

well he is injured, and "terrible" is a relative term. before the injury he was mostly playing like a competent but uninspired middle 6 defence first centre. it's just obvious watching him he has the talent to do more.

he reminds me of loui eriksson with the canucks but more talented. he showed up playing "like a pro" but without any extra effort or commitment and cheating on his offensive heavy lifting assignments by finding a way to be high man in any possession. possibly that was because he was learning a new system and playing safe, but as time went on, while there were bursts of activity, he failed to get his hands dirty and mostly it was like he couldn't shed the checked out mindset he had in calgary, despite having everything to play for personally and being on a competitive team. i assume he was healthy when we got him so i also assume his problem is mental but maybe he got injured before he could reset.

he has one last chance to redeem himself now.

 

[Mobiandi]

Kuzmenko will turn into a positive asset at next year’s TDL and that’s enough to make this trade a win for Calgary. All the other magic beans on top that may or may not turn out are gravy.

Beats giving Lindholm an inflated 8 year deal that could have turned sour before it even kicked in

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I’m happy with this trade if Lindholm helps us win the 1st round. Whether that’s as a shutdown #3C or a scoring top 6 forward, I don’t care.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

I’m not a Canucks fan, I’m a Flames fan.

Vancouver paid for the best defensive centre on the market, who can play the wing when you need more offense.

They paid a price they could afford to pay.

I’m happy with the return. I don’t think the Canucks should lament what they gave up.

I mean all of this is true, if you ignore context, and their is plenty of context if you read through this thread.

Again no premium assets given up. Nothing we gave up hurt us, like at all.

Nobody is saying this is a horrible lopsided trade that will handcuff Vancouver for years to come or that Vancouver gave up a franchise-altering piece on the surface.

All I'm saying is that, having watched Lindholm every game for the past few years and watching his game struggle a lot this year for a variety of potential reasons (injury, losing his high-end linemates, lack of chemistry, contract year issues, team issues, motivation issues, etc.), I would not have been willing to pay the price of unprotected 1st+good prospect for 3 months of him during his worst stretch of hockey in ~5 years.

I'm not saying he's a bad player or can't bounce back and I definitely think he's a top-6 player long-term. But just like watching the Flames trade 1st+ to add Toffoli in the middle of one good season after multiple bad ones, adding rental Lindholm isn't gonna move the needle and is just a waste of assets imo/ the wrong use of assets. Not to say that Monahan/Henrique would've been a better investment, but I definitely would've targeted a guy like Sean Walker+ or a guy with term if you're gonna be giving 1st+good prospect, or I woulda looked for a cheaper middle-6 C option (Cousins, Wennberg) who can fill a similar role to a struggling Lindholm right now. I know those guys play a different role than Lindholm and aren't as good, but the lower acquisition cost mixed with Lindholm's year-long struggles make it a safer play with similar upside. Just my opinion that the opportunity cost outweighs the value here having watched a lot of Lindholm, not that this is a crazy price to pay for a rental generally.

But then Canucks fans come back with responses like "we gave up no premium assets so who cares" or "we only gave an extremely late first and a prospect who isn't that good," but that isn't the point. 1st+good prospect isn't going to make or break your franchise trajectory, but it's not some cheap price either and this trade is still very risky when your team is one year removed from three straight lottery years imo. And if he doesn't turn it around, this is a big swing and a miss. Having said all that I love Lindholm and Zadorov and am happy to eat my words if you guys have some playoff success (ideally at Edmonton's expense).

 

[Scrantonicity 2]

Its also much harder to go from a loose system (Flames) to a rigid, staples, X's andO's Tochett system with the Canucks. Cant freestyle loosely.

What does this even mean? You think the Flames don't have a system and Huska just tells them to go out there and have fun? Could you be any more general (read: unable to actually discern the respective systems)? If this is hockey educated, I hope to remain hockey-uneducated.

 

[Quinning]

Kuzmenko will turn into a positive asset at next year’s TDL and that’s enough to make this trade a win for Calgary. All the other magic beans on top that may or may not turn out are gravy.

Beats giving Lindholm an inflated 8 year deal that could have turned sour before it even kicked in

Flames did very well here regardless of what happens with Lindholm. They turned a liability into multiple quality assets, gambled and bought low on Kuzmenko, and will now likely recoup further assets next season.

Jury is still out on the Canucks.

 

[Szechwan]

Nobody is saying this is a horrible lopsided trade that will handcuff Vancouver for years to come or that Vancouver gave up a franchise-altering piece on the surface.

All I'm saying is that, having watched Lindholm every game for the past few years and watching his game struggle a lot this year for a variety of potential reasons (injury, losing his high-end linemates, lack of chemistry, contract year issues, team issues, motivation issues, etc.), I would not have been willing to pay the price of unprotected 1st+good prospect for 3 months of him during his worst stretch of hockey in ~5 years.

I'm not saying he's a bad player or can't bounce back and I definitely think he's a top-6 player long-term. But just like watching the Flames trade 1st+ to add Toffoli in the middle of one good season after multiple bad ones, adding rental Lindholm isn't gonna move the needle and is just a waste of assets imo/ the wrong use of assets. Not to say that Monahan/Henrique would've been a better investment, but I definitely would've targeted a guy like Sean Walker+ or a guy with term if you're gonna be giving 1st+good prospect, or I woulda looked for a cheaper middle-6 C option (Cousins, Wennberg) who can fill a similar role to a struggling Lindholm right now. I know those guys play a different role than Lindholm and aren't as good, but the lower acquisition cost mixed with Lindholm's year-long struggles make it a safer play with similar upside. Just my opinion that the opportunity cost outweighs the value here having watched a lot of Lindholm, not that this is a crazy price to pay for a rental generally.

But then Canucks fans come back with responses like "we gave up no premium assets so who cares" or "we only gave an extremely late first and a prospect who isn't that good," but that isn't the point. 1st+good prospect isn't going to make or break your franchise trajectory, but it's not some cheap price either and this trade is still very risky when your team is one year removed from three straight lottery years imo. And if he doesn't turn it around, this is a big swing and a miss. Having said all that I love Lindholm and Zadorov and am happy to eat my words if you guys have some playoff success (ideally at Edmonton's expense).

You seem really stuck on the premium assets thing. I will simplify it:

Top 15 pick, Lekkerimaki, Willander are Premium Assets.

Late 1st, last year's 3rd rounder, and a press box player is Not Premium Assets.

Could the late 1st turn out? Sure. We already know the probability of that though and it isn't high.

Could Bruz turn out? Sure. He has tracked well but has warts in his game that may make it a difficult transition to pro, but he is skilled.

Could Kuz work out better in CGY? Of course. But we already determined he couldn't play in Tocchets system so getting off his deal was a boon to Vancouver, no matter how much he scores in CGY.

All that to say, Vancouver paid a fair price, but I assure you, absolutely nobody is losing sleep over it. In fact, very few people even thinks about the assets at all unless this thread is shoved back to the top of HF. If Lindholm can recover from injury, that'd be great. If he doesn't and can't contribute that sucks but whatever, no one is missing the assets they gave up.

 

[UrbanImpact]

Lindholm is a game time decision tonight. Excited to see how he plays in the playoffs after he says he feels finally healthy after a long time.

If it doesnt workout and we let him walk then the Canucks still get the Kuzy 5.5 mil cap space for the offseason which is huge in a cap is king nhl world.

Whatever the Canucks turn that cap space into, whether its Geuntzel or Tanev or etc...will determine for me if this is a win or lose trade from a Canucks perspective.

For now im very happy with

-the fact it didnt cost Hoglander, Lekkerimaki and Willander
- free'd up cap space,
- Lindholm for playoff run.

Its also alright for Flames fans to like the trade. Hope is the biggest thing that a rebuilding franchise can sell the fans. Bruz and 1st is that.

 

[crazyfisherman]

I hope CGY fans are hockey educated enough to see whats happening.

Kuzmenko is a great player for a rebuild team with no structure and playing in loose games. However, he struggles when the game is tight vs teams playing playoff style hockey. Just take a look at his last 15 games.

He has 0 goals vs Edmonton, jets, LA, Van, Car, Florida, Tbay, LA,

Meanwhile he is feasting in loose games vs Ducks and Sharks.

Great for him!! got him 6+mil a year!

This is the same player though that was healthy scratch when cgy was still in it this year and multiple times with Van.

Calgary isnt competing for the next handful of years though so its a good player to target, i doubt they will be able to flip him next trade deadline though becuase no playoff team or playoff coach will be able to ice him in the playoffs with how he currently plays or has played over the last 2 seasons in the nhl.

What a stupid post... Hes ppg in those games against those teams....

 

[crazyfisherman]

As a flame fan, the lindholm slander is real. Dudes great defensively, saying he couldnt shut down mcjesus or MacKinnon are not examples of hes defensive capabilities.... Backlund couldnt either, lets talk about how backlund isnt a shutdown center then. Its a shame he cant find chemistry with Petterson, but i also dont think its just a lindholm issue, i heard Petterson hasnt been good post asg either. They should give Lindholm more time on the top line, chemistry isnt always instant.

 

[UrbanImpact]

Kuzmenko will turn into a positive asset at next year’s TDL and that’s enough to make this trade a win for Calgary. All the other magic beans on top that may or may not turn out are gravy.

Beats giving Lindholm an inflated 8 year deal that could have turned sour before it even kicked in

Serious question, which playoff team do you see trading for Kuzmenko?

He is offensively capable no doubt....but he is also a defensive liability, doesnt do well in a tightly structured playoff style system, he doesnt forecheck/backcheck.... He was in the doghouse with the Canucks from day 1 as Tochett tried to instill 2 way hockey to the entire team.

His great season with the Canucks came under Bruce Bodreau who pretty much had a pond hockey, beer league , free for all style with no structure.

Cant blame Kuzy tho, he is new to the nhl and 2 way, responsible hockey just isnt his thing.

Not to say that he cant improve that or learn that in the off-season but as of right now, i cant picture any playoff team trading for Kuzy at next year's deadline.

He will need to take this off-season much more seriously tho, as last year spent the summer in Bali and no properly training.

IMO if the Flames want assets for him, they should trade him in the off-season to a non playoff but rebuilding team like the Blackhawks.

Hawks are not expected to be in the playoffs and can probably use some goal scoring and excitement with the fans. Kuzy would be perfect there.

Maybe Ducks and Sharks as well would fit?

Waiting till the trade deadline imo would only make the market much much smaller as there would be very very limited if even any of interested teams wanting Kuzy in playoffs.

 

[BCNate]

He was brought in for the playoffs, eh? You know he has never been a great playoff performer... right?

Having 3 quality centres in a playoff series is huge. Having the ability to roll the Lotto line without a blackhole at 2C is also huge.

The Canucks didn't make that trade to win a Pacific division banner, they did it with the playoffs in mind.

His playoff stats are right inline with his regular season averages.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

You seem really stuck on the premium assets thing. I will simplify it:

Top 15 pick, Lekkerimaki, Willander are Premium Assets.

Late 1st, last year's 3rd rounder, and a press box player is Not Premium Assets.

Could the late 1st turn out? Sure. We already know the probability of that though and it isn't high.

Could Bruz turn out? Sure. He has tracked well but has warts in his game that may make it a difficult transition to pro, but he is skilled.

Could Kuz work out better in CGY? Of course. But we already determined he couldn't play in Tocchets system so getting off his deal was a boon to Vancouver, no matter how much he scores in CGY.

All that to say, Vancouver paid a fair price, but I assure you, absolutely nobody is losing sleep over it. In fact, very few people even thinks about the assets at all unless this thread is shoved back to the top of HF. If Lindholm can recover from injury, that'd be great. If he doesn't and can't contribute that sucks but whatever, no one is missing the assets they gave up.

Talk about completely misrepresenting my entire post to fit your narrative. I said maybe 5-10 times that you did NOT give up some super premium assets and that this isn't some make-or-break trade or pacakge lol.

I think that Lindholm was the wrong guy to target with your (NON-PREMIUM but still valuable) assets. I think you and Vancouver fans will look back and think its a bad trade because 1st+prospect+ is a a lot to pay for 3 months of an already-struggling player. I'm obviously not saying it's like Forsberg for Erat franchise-altering bad though. A trade can be bad, and foreseeably bad, without being franchise-crippling or causing fans to lose sleep lol.

I just don't get why you get so offended when people criticize the trade as if we're saying your GM should be fired and inexcusable. The Flames made the exact same mistakes with Toffoli, Winnipeg with Monahan (and coincidentally Toffoli again). Unless you are a legit contender, trading a 1st+ for rentals of that calibre just isn't going to move the needle is all.

 

[Rowlet]

Talk about completely misrepresenting my entire post to fit your narrative. I said maybe 5-10 times that you did NOT give up some super premium assets and that this isn't some make-or-break trade or pacakge lol.

I think that Lindholm was the wrong guy to target with your (NON-PREMIUM but still valuable) assets. I think you and Vancouver fans will look back and think its a bad trade because 1st+prospect+ is a a lot to pay for 3 months of an already-struggling player. I'm obviously not saying it's like Forsberg for Erat franchise-altering bad though. A trade can be bad, and foreseeably bad, without being franchise-crippling or causing fans to lose sleep lol.

I just don't get why you get so offended when people criticize the trade as if we're saying your GM should be fired and inexcusable. The Flames made the exact same mistakes with Toffoli, Winnipeg with Monahan (and coincidentally Toffoli again). Unless you are a legit contender, trading a 1st+ for rentals of that calibre just isn't going to move the needle is all.

And we all think you're wrong.

The only big fish the Canucks were linked to were Lindholm, Tanev, and Guentzel.

The forward depth was much more concerning than the D, the Penguins required Hoglander, and the Flames prefered the Dallas prospect to the higher pick.

The Canucks goal was to get a defensive C with an RHS who can excell at faceoffs, which they did.

As for being a legit contender, the Canucks had been first in the league for months when they made the trade.

 

[Mobiandi]

Serious question, which playoff team do you see trading for Kuzmenko?

I’m sure the Canes/Cats/Bolts would perk their ears at Kuzmenko 50% retained

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Nobody is saying this is a horrible lopsided trade that will handcuff Vancouver for years to come or that Vancouver gave up a franchise-altering piece on the surface.

All I'm saying is that, having watched Lindholm every game for the past few years and watching his game struggle a lot this year for a variety of potential reasons (injury, losing his high-end linemates, lack of chemistry, contract year issues, team issues, motivation issues, etc.), I would not have been willing to pay the price of unprotected 1st+good prospect for 3 months of him during his worst stretch of hockey in ~5 years.

I'm not saying he's a bad player or can't bounce back and I definitely think he's a top-6 player long-term. But just like watching the Flames trade 1st+ to add Toffoli in the middle of one good season after multiple bad ones, adding rental Lindholm isn't gonna move the needle and is just a waste of assets imo/ the wrong use of assets. Not to say that Monahan/Henrique would've been a better investment, but I definitely would've targeted a guy like Sean Walker+ or a guy with term if you're gonna be giving 1st+good prospect, or I woulda looked for a cheaper middle-6 C option (Cousins, Wennberg) who can fill a similar role to a struggling Lindholm right now. I know those guys play a different role than Lindholm and aren't as good, but the lower acquisition cost mixed with Lindholm's year-long struggles make it a safer play with similar upside. Just my opinion that the opportunity cost outweighs the value here having watched a lot of Lindholm, not that this is a crazy price to pay for a rental generally.

But then Canucks fans come back with responses like "we gave up no premium assets so who cares" or "we only gave an extremely late first and a prospect who isn't that good," but that isn't the point. 1st+good prospect isn't going to make or break your franchise trajectory, but it's not some cheap price either and this trade is still very risky when your team is one year removed from three straight lottery years imo. And if he doesn't turn it around, this is a big swing and a miss. Having said all that I love Lindholm and Zadorov and am happy to eat my words if you guys have some playoff success (ideally at Edmonton's expense).

Plenty in here have said we got taken to the cleaners or ripped off or something along those lines.

Right now we lost the trade, but the playoff is where we really asses this trade.

He is a top 6 2 way C that is exactly what we needed.

We didn't give up any premium assets, we paid cost for a player we needed, who has been injured and has not had a good year so far. Was it risky? yep, was it worth it? We don't know that yet.

Thank you, could not agree more. One thing flames fans and Canucks fans can unite on is our hatred of the Oilers and the city of chumps, sorry "champions" lol

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

I’m sure the Canes/Cats/Bolts would perk their ears at Kuzmenko 50% retained

I guess those teams don't care if he plays in his own end? Or is generally a defensive liability in a proper system?

 

[Kshahdoo]

I guess those teams don't care if he plays in his own end? Or is generally a defensive liability in a proper system?

If he's a 70 point player and PP specialist nobody will give a damn for whether he's good defensively or not.

 

[Mobiandi]

I guess those teams don't care if he plays in his own end? Or is generally a defensive liability in a proper system?

No? As much as Canucks fans like to think that Kuzmenko’s blacklisted because Tocchet doesn’t like him, there’s a reason the Flames convinced him to waive while rejecting cap dumps from Toronto/Colorado/Edmonton in other trades.

There’ll always be a place for gunslinging Russians in the league. Florida has one right now in Tarasenko. Carolina has been a destination for flawed reclamation projects for many years now and Tampa will trade draft picks for anyone who can skate.

Monahan was acquired for a 1st to turn the Jets PP around and he’s more likely to win this year’s Rocket than a Selke in his career.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

If he's a 70 point player and PP specialist nobody will give a damn for whether he's good defensively or not.

Except any good coach in the league, but coming from someone who lives in a fantasy world where Tochett somehow is fired by next year (yah I saw the comment before it was deleted) I wouldn't expect you to understand.

No? As much as Canucks fans like to think that Kuzmenko’s blacklisted because Tocchet doesn’t like him, there’s a reason the Flames convinced him to waive while rejecting cap dumps from Toronto/Colorado/Edmonton in other trades.

There’ll always be a place for gunslinging Russians in the league. Florida has one right now in Tarasenko. Carolina has been a destination for flawed reclamation projects for many years now and Tampa will trade draft picks for anyone who can skate.

Monahan was acquired for a 1st to turn the Jets PP around and he’s more likely to win this year’s Rocket than a Selke in his career.

Yah, because he didn't have to play in a proper system as you guys were already free-falling when he arrived, pretty easy to understand that.

Carolina plays a proper system, and they are a winning team, Florida you can make an argument for.

Monahan is a much different player than Kuz.

 

[Mobiandi]

Monahan is actually the best comparable to Kuzmenko. Both are lazy off-the-puck and atrocious defensively, and both have a knack for scoring on the PP. For a retained caphit at <3million, teams will be interested

 

[Kshahdoo]

Except any good coach in the league, but coming from someone who lives in a fantasy world where Tochett somehow is fired by next year (yah I saw the comment before it was deleted) I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Your "good coach" has won nothing yet, though. I think for a coach evaluation you need a little bit more than year and half...

 

[DS7]

Can we just say both teams won out?

Calgary has a great locker room guy and scorer, and the option to offload him next year. And I'm quite happy having Lindholm as a centre option. Even if Lindholm drops dead tomorrow (figuratively speaking), we basically paid to get $5.5M off our books in the offseason which will be important to extend players we want to bring back.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

And we all think you're wrong.

The only big fish the Canucks were linked to were Lindholm, Tanev, and Guentzel.

The forward depth was much more concerning than the D, the Penguins required Hoglander, and the Flames prefered the Dallas prospect to the higher pick.

The Canucks goal was to get a defensive C with an RHS who can excell at faceoffs, which they did.

As for being a legit contender, the Canucks had been first in the league for months when they made the trade.

I know you think I’m wrong haha that’s why we’re here. And your reasoning is that “we weren’t linked to anyone better so this was the best we can do” and “we didn’t give up a premium asset so it’s fine” which to me is just flawed logic.

You’re saying your only options were those three that you were linked to? That’s complete speculation.

Again, not saying it’s a horrible rip-off trade, but it’s easy to overpay for rentals based on a good reg season. So you pointing out that you were first in the standings is exactly what I’m saying the problem is. I get it, you guys are having a great year and wanted to add at the deadline. Nothing wrong with that. The mistake (imo) was going for a struggling rental Lindholm over other options at a relatively expensive price (again nothing exorbitant, but a solid 1st+roster player+prospect++), either with term or other rentals, or going for cheaper options that are almost as good.

The fact that you then argue that you wanted an RHC and were first in the league makes sense for why you wanted a player like Lindholm, but you can’t force something when Lindholm is struggling and somewhat off like he has been. Like I agree he seemed to fit your roster on paper, but having watched a lot of him I don’t think he was the right guy to target at your stage. A situation where the GM sees a guy that would fit his roster on paper asks the pro scout if he thinks it makes sense and the scout says something like ‘I see why you think that but the player is struggling offensively and defensively right now and it’s quite risky given we’re only acquiring him as a rental in the worst stretch of his past 6 years.’

If you were Colorado-level consistent contender and were legit a 2C rental away from another run, then fine. But you aren’t in that position yet and didn’t have to limit your market to just those 3 rentals.