Raptors Discussion: v95|Masai's back! The panic and dread can now end.

[zeke]

I’m not playing dumb, I’m telling you that anyone who needed stats to see how good Lowry or Green was pretty dumb, though.

By what measure? Lowry is CP3 without the handle and explosive first step. His intangibles and ability to manage the game are some of the best we’ve ever seen.

You spend too much time on the internet and not enough time talking to real people who watch and follow closely.

Mike Conley had a bad year last year and got injured. Most could envision a bounce back and I think many were happy for him to see his first all star selection.

You need to interact with more people.

And yet you still won't tell us how good you thought they were, or how good the basketball world at large thought they were.

Now even resorting to adorable attempts at personal attacks to avoid it.

 

[zeke]

I would love to go back just a few short years on this here thread, when all the analytics called the raps an elite team behind their elite PG, while the experts here mocked them.

 

[sparxx87]

And yet you still won't tell us how good you thought they were, or how good the basketball world at large thought they were.

Now even resorting to adorable attempts at personal attacks to avoid it.

I asked you “by what measure” on how good they are, and went on the compare him to a less skilled point god Chris Paul.

No personal attacks. You keep talking about what ‘the basketball world thinks’ and I’ve asked you to be more specific. You refuse, so I’m telling you the people you read or listen to aren’t very bright.

 

[Eyedea]

Absolutely 100% false.

In fact, I was shat on right here in this thread for suggesting exactly that.

You know what, I’ll agree with you. There were a lot of people complaining about Lowry putting up 0 in a game against the Magic and lumping him in with DeMar as a trash bro.

Buttttt I feel pretty confident in saying that I was always pro-Lowry. I definitely thought of him as an elite pg and his only issue was that his main pass was to an iso player with no range.

I still think the basketball world was pro Lowry though. Maybe not Raps fans because of the heartbreak/LeBronto era, but coaches and players recognized his impact on the floor.

 

[zeke]

I asked you “by what measure” on how good they are, and went on the compare him to a less skilled point god Chris Paul.

No personal attacks. You keep talking about what ‘the basketball world thinks’ and I’ve asked you to be more specific. You refuse, so I’m telling you the people you read or listen to aren’t very bright.

Heh. More adorable personal attacks. Definite sign of an honest broker.

I'm a veteran of far too many Kyle Lowry debates over the years to buy what you're peddling for even a second. I don't remember you in particular but given your join date I'm sure you were involved in many of them right here with me - and I know for a fact nobody was agreeing with the advanced stats on Lowry back then, so I can safely assume you were attempting to mock those stats back then just as you are now. You likely mocked the stats even as they correctly predicted the raps were better than the hyped Celtics every year, too.

If you want to pretend now, after he won his chip, that you always thought he was an elite player capable of being the #2 on a title team to make yourself look good on the internet, that's fine.

 

[zeke]

You know what, I’ll agree with you. There were a lot of people complaining about Lowry putting up 0 in a game against the Magic and lumping him in with DeMar as a trash bro.

Buttttt I feel pretty confident in saying that I was always pro-Lowry. I definitely thought of him as an elite pg and his only issue was that his main pass was to an iso player with no range.

Would love to go back to those years and see which experts here thought Demar was the best player on the team and which realized it was easily Kyle, and by far.

 

[sparxx87]

Heh. More adorable personal attacks. Definite sign of an honest broker.

I'm a veteran of far too many Kyle Lowry debates over the years to buy what you're peddling for even a second. I don't remember you in particular but given your join date I'm sure you were involved in many of them right here with me - and I know for a fact nobody was agreeing with the advanced stats on Lowry back then, so I can safely assume you were attempting to mock those stats back then just as you are now. You likely mocked the stats even as they correctly predicted the raps were better than the hyped Celtics every year, too.

If you want to pretend now, after he won his chip, that you always thought he was an elite player capable of being the #2 on a title team to make yourself look good on the internet, that's fine.

Telling you the source of your information isn’t very bright isn’t a personal attack on you at all. You’re only as good as the information you have. I don’t fault you for that, I’m trying to give you some good advice.

I don’t care what you remember. And I’ll PayPal you $1000 right now if you can find even a single post where I slandered Lowry or didn’t appreciate his value.

I’ve had several lengthy posts in the basketball forum endorsing the Raptors, particularly one before the finals where I outline exactly how they could win.. and it was almost all bang on except the KD injury.

Think what you want but the proof is there for you if you care to look.

 

[zeke]

Telling you the source of your information isn’t very bright isn’t a personal attack on you at all. You’re only as good as the information you have. I don’t fault you for that, I’m trying to give you some good advice.

I don’t care what you remember. And I’ll PayPal you $1000 right now if you can find even a single post where I slandered Lowry or didn’t appreciate his value.

I’ve had several lengthy posts in the basketball forum endorsing the Raptors, particularly one before the finals where I outline exactly how they could win.. and it was almost all bang on except the KD injury.

Think what you want but the proof is there for you if you care to look.

Spoiler: I don't care to look.

For the record though - it seems like the analytics seem to match your expert opinion. Shouldn't that make you respect what they're showing?

 

[sparxx87]

Spoiler: I don't care to look.

For the record though - it seems like the analytics seem to match your expert opinion. Shouldn't that make you respect what they're showing?

Of course you don’t. Because if you did, you’d be forced to acknowledge that people knew how good Lowry was even without a ring, and didn’t need stats to tell them.

Do you find a broken clock to be effective because it’s right twice a day?

 

[djdev]

no barnes today, so ima skip this game. lol not sure why hes sitting..i guess hes banged up?

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Gillespie is absolute trash. How can he be this, given the promise he showed last year?

 

[djdev]

Gillespie is absolute trash. How can he be this, given the promise he showed last year?

good thing is we dont need him now. i mean he tries hard, but its like watching a player that had his hands amputated...

 

[sparxx87]

no barnes today, so ima skip this game. lol not sure why hes sitting..i guess hes banged up?

Most teams rest their A group in the last game.

 

[djdev]

Most teams rest their A group in the last game.

ye saw after that none of him precious or flynn is playing.

 

[sparxx87]

ye saw after that none of him precious or flynn is playing.

If they made the championship I think they’d play, but there’s nothing to play for at this point.

It’s too bad they shot so poorly against the Warriors because they have a better team than the Celtics and Kings who play for the championship tonight.

 

[New Liskeard]

“They’re getting out of hand” - EJ

They also said “these stats are for people without ability and knowledge who still want to be apart of the conversation” … “they remove the intelligence from the decision”

They’re even worse in hockey but the NHL doesn’t have a show like this where a panel full of HOF’er’s can laugh at them.

Love this, well done. This is the downfall of MLB and the casual fan today. Very sad indeed.

 

[trellaine201]

I am no analytics guy in any sport. Play by feel and gut. Just play the game. I enjoyed the video. Nice perspectives.

 

[TheGreatOne11]

Yes I've come across many stats that account for heart and effort, and none of them are outliers.

For example, all the best impact nba stats told us that Kyle Lowry was far, far better than "basketball people" thought he was, an elite player, and now the rest of the basketball world finally caught up to what the stats were saying, only after he won a championship as the 2nd best player on the team.

Okay, since they are not outlier stats, when it comes to heart and effort.

Who are the top 5 regardless of position currently on the Leafs?

And where do our top 2 positional players in every position rank in this statistical analysis?

Meaning our best 2 LW, C, RW, D, and goalies, rank against the rest of the league in this category that is not an outlier?

I'm legit looking forward to this. And if you don't want to answer i get it, I'm asking something from you while giving you nothing, but I've never heard of stats accounting for such things and Lowry as an example just has me intrigued.

If you want to add a category, when it comes to this analysis, who do you think in the entire league would be the most "cost effective" if you were just looking at these stats.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It’s not that hard to see (visually) why Lowry is an elite player.

His ability to pass, score, defend, and elevate heteammates is comparable to Tim Hardaway who was one of the best PGs in the 90s. I think he was definitely underrated in Houston, but when he came here and Calderon was shipped out that signalled his ascent. 6x AS, Olympic Gold, he doesn’t have the All-NBA teams like Hardaway which is unfortunate but due to the era he played in. Everyone knew he was a top 10, if not top 5 pg in his prime, but he needed that championship to cement himself as an HOFer.

Is Lowry now a lock for the HOF? Not saying he isn't, just curious.

My 2c, I've never looked closely at NBA stats but I've followed discussions here and there and I found that lot of people agreed with me about Lowry and we all felt that he was exactly what you said. Top 10 was obvious, there was nothing to even discuss on that subject and he was definitely in the top 5 discussion much of the time. I would only add that while some people get bamboozled by points, it was super obvious a long time ago that Lowry was the best player we had, a much better player then Derozan, like not even close. Lowry reminds me of what Gilmour was like on the Leafs, he's one of those rare players that never quits, never stops hustling, plays super aggressively sacrificing his body for the good of the team despite his size and doesn't even notice how big opponents are when he gets in their face and inspires everyone around him to raise their level of play.

 

[zeke]

Okay, since they are not outlier stats, when it comes to heart and effort.

Who are the top 5 regardless of position currently on the Leafs?

And where do our top 2 positional players in every position rank in this statistical analysis?

Meaning our best 2 LW, C, RW, D, and goalies, rank against the rest of the league in this category that is not an outlier?

I'm legit looking forward to this. And if you don't want to answer i get it, I'm asking something from you while giving you nothing, but I've never heard of stats accounting for such things and Lowry as an example just has me intrigued.

If you want to add a category, when it comes to this analysis, who do you think in the entire league would be the most "cost effective" if you were just looking at these stats.

Here's the trick - if a player actually does possess a "heart and effort" skill that give him an advantage over more skilled players, then he will end up having better analytics than those players.

 

[zeke]

Of course you don’t. Because if you did, you’d be forced to acknowledge that people knew how good Lowry was even without a ring, and didn’t need stats to tell them.

Do you find a broken clock to be effective because it’s right twice a day?

Like i said, I am happy for you if you thought Lowry and the raps were as good as the analytics said they were, before they won the chip.

what might bug you, of course, is the realization is that Masai loves his analytics, and his team wasn't built by fluke.

 

[theaub]

Lowry was a top 5 RPM player for basically his entire Raptors career. Who exactly was slandering the guy?

 

[zeke]

Lowry was a top 5 RPM player for basically his entire Raptors career. Who exactly was slandering the guy?

Top 5 RPM player the bulk of his career, yet only one 3rd team all-nba during that entire stretch, and no all-D teams.

So you tell me.

 

[lipstickjunkie]

I think many of those who vote on the all-NBA teams are dinosaurs and look mostly at reputation and simplistic old-school stats. Consequently, Lowry likely was criminally underrated for the majority of his tenure here.

Hopefully that's changing though.

Like in baseball, it's taken a while to change the way the voters think. I mean, it's probably only been the last three to five years that wins and losses haven't been a major determining factor in Cy Young voting.

 

[hockeywiz542]