Raptors Discussion: v93 | Panic level rising significantly

[sparxx87]

Drummond is awful. He is one of the worst offenders of being total empty stats, while at the same time having an attitude and thinking he can be the focal point of a team. He's in the 18th percentile for finishing at the rim too, he is comically bad offensively and chooses to eschew defense in the name of chasing rebounds.



He's only an upgrade on Baynes because Baynes really is that bad. Unless we think we can get Drummond to buy into being a role player, I just don't see going after him as a good idea. Especially since we'd actually have to give up stuff of value just to make salaries work - which wouldn't work unless a rebuilding Cleveland would be willing to send back picks/prospects.

Good post. Agree with all of it, just thought it might be worth the 2nd round pick to see if he fits and could play as a 5th option. He’s always been on bad teams where he’s had the freedom to do dumb things... Wonder how he’d look in a lesser and more simplified role as a rebounder and paint defender.

Didn’t really consider that they’d have to move a bunch of salary out so you’re probably right.

 

[The Nemesis]

Blake Murphy has a piece up on The Athletic this morning that basically says the Raptors are in the worst possible position financially to do a Drummond deal because if you presume that the trade would be predicated on them continuing to try and contend, it would mean certainly not moving Lowry and probably not moving Powell (because the team's wing depth sucks). And at that point you're looking at a trade that would have to strop out 4-5+ rotation pieces to match salaries on Drummond.

Also agree that I don't want Drummond because of his offensive/defensive deficiencies and has had multiple issues related to attitude/effort in the past.

 

[trellaine201]

I’m curious about Blake Griffins contract and how Detroit can get rid of him and his contract? with his injury history and HUGE contract which runs through next year.

whose taking this? Will they have to buy him out?

thanks

 

[yvrtojfk]

Can CLE retain salary?

 

[Dr.Funk]

Can CLE retain salary?

Nope.

 

[hockeywiz542]

What are the hurdles facing Raptors in potential trade for Drummond? - TSN.ca

The Raptors have reportedly shown interest in trading for Andre Drummond, who would provide a much-needed boost on the boards for Toronto, but there would be some obstacles if the team was to try and finalize something. TSN Raptors reporter Josh Lewenberg explains.

 

[Plat87]

The next 5-6 games will probably make Masai make a decision on which way this team will go, are they going to buying or selling, if they 0-6 then I think it's time to go the rebuilding route. I think it's time to trade Lowry/Powell and just tank the season, but thats just my opinion.

 

[GoonieFace]

They are in a bad spot right now. The East is horrible, which has allowed them to hang around. I just don’t think they can get out of the East in a playoff series. They have a chance to get some assets that should help them add to the core of FVV, Siakam and OG. Lowry should be traded (depending on the return).
At some point they need to add a impact lottery pick in the draft. They can’t keep relying on hidden gems.

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

They are in a bad spot right now. The East is horrible, which has allowed them to hang around. I just don’t think they can get out of the East in a playoff series. They have a chance to get some assets that should help them add to the core of FVV, Siakam and OG. Lowry should be traded (depending on the return).
At some point they need to add a impact lottery pick in the draft. They can’t keep relying on hidden gems.

Given our track record, I'd rather count on hidden gems than getting lucky in the lottery.

Hidden gems are something you can actually control. Good scouting, smart and/or unorthodox ways to measure potential, development in the 905 - these have been good for us.

The draft? It's a crap shoot. You may get lucky or not. You can always get lucky with a higher pick almost as much as a low one. Kawhi at 15th, Steph at 7th, etc. Would we have picked them if we'd had the first pick?

Hey, would could have picked up Anthony Bennett and brought him back to star in his home town! What a story that would have been.....

On top of that, you have to endure a season of total and absolute suckage to do that.

Nope.

 

[GoonieFace]

Given our track record, I'd rather count on hidden gems than getting lucky in the lottery.

Hidden gems are something you can actually control. Good scouting, smart and/or unorthodox ways to measure potential, development in the 905 - these have been good for us.

The draft? It's a crap shoot. You may get lucky or not. You can always get lucky with a higher pick almost as much as a low one. Kawhi at 15th, Steph at 7th, etc. Would we have picked them if we'd had the first pick?

Hey, would could have picked up Anthony Bennett and brought him back to star in his home town! What a story that would have been.....

On top of that, you have to endure a season of total and absolute suckage to do that.

Nope.

Agree to a point, but ultimately you need to draft in the top 10 to sustain some sort of viable team.

we turned 2 top ten picks (Derozan and Poetl) into Kawhi, a legit superstar. I know Kawhi was a mid 1st rd pick.

The Raps front office has done a good job developing players, players that would have not turned out for other franchises, simply because they are inept. But at some point that well will run dry, and you need legit superstar level players to win. We can’t rely on trading for those types of players either, as that won’t always be possible. Kawhi was a bit of a unique situation.

I doubt the Raps would have drafted Bennett, everyone with a brain knew he was going to be a bust.

 

[sparxx87]

It’s the Pat Riley model - build a culture, draft and develop talent that fits said culture, then put together a package and trade for a superstar when the opportunity presents itself.

I don’t see why the Raptors can’t do what they did in 2019 again.. Or what the Heat did last year when they made it to the finals.

I posted earlier but tanking for high picks doesn’t yield championships. The only possible example of success is when David Robinson was injured for a season and allowed the Spurs to draft Tim Duncan.


Title teams in the NBA are built with trades and through free agency. Raptors have a hard time luring top free agents but there’s no reason why they can’t accumulate assets and package them for a better one when they’ve literally already done this.

 

[tmlfan98]

Blake Murphy has a piece up on The Athletic this morning that basically says the Raptors are in the worst possible position financially to do a Drummond deal because if you presume that the trade would be predicated on them continuing to try and contend, it would mean certainly not moving Lowry and probably not moving Powell (because the team's wing depth sucks). And at that point you're looking at a trade that would have to strop out 4-5+ rotation pieces to match salaries on Drummond.

Also agree that I don't want Drummond because of his offensive/defensive deficiencies and has had multiple issues related to attitude/effort in the past.

This is an interesting take from Murphy considering there is no way the Raps are contending this year, why would this be the presumption?

My presumption was that Drummond would be expiring salary filler that we would take back in a potential three team trade between TOR/CLE/3rd team who wants Lowry, if we decide to sell off Lowry and Norm for assets instead of both leaving for nothing.

Drummond/Baynes would be an awesome tank commander duo.

 

[BlueForever75]

These next 5 games will be critical to the Raps direction moving forward. If they are above 500 they will acquire to contend going into the playoffs. If they are below it will be the time to start selling off assets like Lowry and Powell.

I know trading Powell will hurt. But he will definitely opt out of his contract after this season. Trading him for assets soon as he is playing the best basketball of his professional career would be smart asset management.

In the off season depending on what your trying to build you can try to re-sign Powell as a free agent. But if I am the Raps I am not waiting until deadline to decide on direction. Its after these next 5 games.

I would trade everyone but FVV, Siakam, OG and Boucher. Everyone else is free game. Go into a rebuild with more draft picks and money moving forward.

 

[GoonieFace]

It’s the Pat Riley model - build a culture, draft and develop talent that fits said culture, then put together a package and trade for a superstar when the opportunity presents itself.

I don’t see why the Raptors can’t do what they did in 2019 again.. Or what the Heat did last year when they made it to the finals.

I posted earlier but tanking for high picks doesn’t yield championships. The only possible example of success is when David Robinson was injured for a season and allowed the Spurs to draft Tim Duncan.


Title teams in the NBA are built with trades and through free agency. Raptors have a hard time luring top free agents but there’s no reason why they can’t accumulate assets and package them for a better one when they’ve literally already done this.

Let’s look at Golden State - Curry and Thompson top 12 picks. Green 2nd Rd pick. Durant free agent signing

Lakers - LeBron free agent signing
Davis - trade (gave up Ingram and Randle, both top 7 picks) Josh Hart and multiple picks

Heat - lebron and Bosh free agents. Wade top 5 pick

The way the league is going since the Heat won, you have to be able to attract free agents. No top tier free agent will willingly sign with the Raptors.

We have to figure the Kawhi scenario will never happen again. That was a strange scenario about a guy who barely played the year prior and wanted out of San Antonio. We still gave up two top 12 selected players and a 1st Rd pick for him. If we keep drafting in the 20’s it’s going to be hard to duplicate that

 

[Plat87]

Let’s look at Golden State - Curry and Thompson top 12 picks. Green 2nd Rd pick. Durant free agent signing

Lakers - LeBron free agent signing
Davis - trade (gave up Ingram and Randle, both top 7 picks) Josh Hart and multiple picks

Heat - lebron and Bosh free agents. Wade top 5 pick

The way the league is going since the Heat won, you have to be able to attract free agents. No top tier free agent will willingly sign with the Raptors.

We have to figure the Kawhi scenario will never happen again. That was a strange scenario about a guy who barely played the year prior and wanted out of San Antonio. We still gave up two top 12 selected players and a 1st Rd pick for him. If we keep drafting in the 20’s it’s going to be hard to duplicate that

Yup, the Kawhi trade was one in a million, the stars aligned with that one and the dude left after winning a championship with us. Toronto isn't a hot free agent spot like LA/Miami and is at the bottom of the list when it comes to the top FA's, we will need to draft and develop our stars and the stars are usually in the lottery.

 

[The Nemesis]

This is an interesting take from Murphy considering there is no way the Raps are contending this year, why would this be the presumption?

My presumption was that Drummond would be expiring salary filler that we would take back in a potential three team trade between TOR/CLE/3rd team who wants Lowry, if we decide to sell off Lowry and Norm for assets instead of both leaving for nothing.

Drummond/Baynes would be an awesome tank commander duo.

I think most people aren't looking at the Raptors as being quite to the point of full-blown "burn it down and start fresh" mode yet, so any big-name acquisition is going to be framed in the context of whether or not it can help the Raptors bounce back from the rut they're in now to something resembling a dangerous playoff team. And Drummond seems to still be a big enough name that people attach those expectations to him even though by most measures he's not actually enough of a needle-mover to push a good team forward. So given those two premises, any trade the Raptors would make for Drummond (and indeed pretty much any hypothetical trade they might be looking at that's not explicitly a white-flag-waver) is going to be examined in the context of making the Raptors better. And exchanging Drummond for either a) Powell and stuff or b) basically 80% of the Raptors' rotation bench in order to make salaries work is far more trouble than it's worth. Because either situation murders the team's depth in some key area or areas and you've now opened up a hole that's as big or bigger than the one Drummond fills (if you believe he fills a hole at all)

the upside for me is at least there's no media reports of Masai watching the Blake Griffin buyout market.

 

[Cloned]

They are in a bad spot right now. The East is horrible, which has allowed them to hang around. I just don’t think they can get out of the East in a playoff series. They have a chance to get some assets that should help them add to the core of FVV, Siakam and OG. Lowry should be traded (depending on the return).
At some point they need to add a impact lottery pick in the draft. They can’t keep relying on hidden gems.

The funny thing is that the Raps could actually win a playoff series or two in this year's East because of how mediocre it is. This is as bad as the East has been in quite some time. There's maybe 1 actual good team right now, and I'm not sure that's even true as both Philly and Milwaukee have lost 3 in a row.

 

[trellaine201]

Lowry seems to be having injury issues quite frequently this year? At least so far?

 

[stickty111]

And the Raps beat the Bucks because off course they do.

 

[howlman]

Big win well done Raps. They aint tanking

 

[tmlfan98]

I think most people aren't looking at the Raptors as being quite to the point of full-blown "burn it down and start fresh" mode yet, so any big-name acquisition is going to be framed in the context of whether or not it can help the Raptors bounce back from the rut they're in now to something resembling a dangerous playoff team. And Drummond seems to still be a big enough name that people attach those expectations to him even though by most measures he's not actually enough of a needle-mover to push a good team forward. So given those two premises, any trade the Raptors would make for Drummond (and indeed pretty much any hypothetical trade they might be looking at that's not explicitly a white-flag-waver) is going to be examined in the context of making the Raptors better. And exchanging Drummond for either a) Powell and stuff or b) basically 80% of the Raptors' rotation bench in order to make salaries work is far more trouble than it's worth. Because either situation murders the team's depth in some key area or areas and you've now opened up a hole that's as big or bigger than the one Drummond fills (if you believe he fills a hole at all)

the upside for me is at least there's no media reports of Masai watching the Blake Griffin buyout market.

So essentially what you're saying is that the media is reporting the Drummond rumours this way because the casual Raps fan is misinformed about the value of Drummond and the realistic state of the team (which is that without a #1 superstar closer, the team is going nowhere significant).

Also, trading Lowry and Norm isn't burning it down and starting fresh, these two are both expiring contracts who almost certainly leave in FA for better shots at winning, as they can both be key contributors on contending teams. Getting assets instead of letting them walk for nothing is the necessary move as a team currently without any championship aspirations. Burning it down and starting fresh would be if core guys locked up like FVV, OG and Pascal were rumoured to be on the block.

To be clear, being in favour of trading Lowry and Norm instead of letting them walk does not mean I am pro-tank. There's just no logical reason to keep them as own rentals.

 

[trellaine201]

I thought Milwaukee was suppose to be the b all and end all this year *shrug*

 

[Plat87]

I love it when the Raptors beat the Bucks

 

[Cloned]

Pretty sure Budenholzer sees Nick Nurse in his nightmares every night.

The East continues to be mediocre. Boston is barely .500, Milwaukee is barely over .500, Philly hasn't been great lately...

 

[stickty111]

Pretty sure Budenholzer sees Nick Nurse in his nightmares every night.

The East continues to be mediocre. Boston is barely .500, Milwaukee is barely over .500, Philly hasn't been great lately...

Was thinking this tonight too. Bud brings out the best in Nurse. Bud was totally outcoached in that series.