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vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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And Ranford won a Cup and a Smythe with the Gretzky-less Oilers.

Was also brilliant for team Canada in the 1991 Canada Cup and the 1993 & 1994 World Championships.

to be fair, while it's harder to win a cup without gretzky, if your team does win a cup it's probably easier to win the conn smythe if gretzky is not on your team.

i totally agree though that ranford had some absolutely elite moments. he was the CS favourite through the first two rounds of the '92 playoffs, before he and edmonton in general imploded in the third round. though imo tikkanen was most deserving of the 1990 CS.
 

NordiquesForeva

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May 30, 2022
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hmm, this is interesting. it's never occurred to me before but let's look:

goal: '98 roy vs '02 brodeur. edge to '98, draw at best.

defence: blake, bourque, desjardins, foote, macinnis, pronger, stevens vs blake, foote, macinnis, niedermayer, pronger... and jovo and eric brewer. edge to '98 easily.

forwards, i'm not sure. partially because crawford's lines made no sense.

brind'amour lindros corson
shanahan gretzky yzerman
linden primeau recchi
zamuner nieuwendyk fleury

vs

gagne sakic iginla
kariya lemieux yzerman
smyth lindros nolan
shanahan nieuwendyk fleury

that '02 top six was just so damn good.

I like 1998's defense and goaltending (even without Niedermayer on the back end...he should have been there instead of Foote), and 2002's forwards. The 1998 team would look a helluva lot better with Kariya there instead of one of Corson, Linden, Primeau, Brind'Amour, or Zamuner. That is 5 forwards out of 13 (counting Sakic) that would primarily be responsible for defensive/checking/physical play. That is too much, particularly on international ice. Guys like Primeau and Corson should never have been under consideration for a Canadian Olympic team.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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Once Sakic get down for Canada (exactly when it did start to mater) in 1998, 2002 forward are ahead easily but before ?

There is a list of easy one
98 Sakic ~= 02 Sakic
98 Shanahan > 02 shanahan
98 Fleury > 02 Fleury
98 Nieuwndyk > 02 Nieuwndyk
98 Yzerman > 02 Yzerman (much more for a season, but just a tourney-playoff run he was still capable)
98 Lindros >>> 02 Lindros, different animal all together


Gretzky
Primeau
Corson
Brind'amour
Linden
Recchi

vs

Lemieux
Iginla
Gagne
Nolan
Peca
Kariya

How much Iginla-Lemieux achive to make up for the lost ground of aging ? Specially Lindros.

That Recchi was probably around that Kariya, Nolan was about done has an elite player, Gagne was 21, Peca his great in that role but Brind'amour has well, that Lemieux > that Gretzky his fair.
 

Neutrinos

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That's an absurd scenario, isn't it?

That's like saying Jack Dempsey is the best boxer ever, and then claiming it's absurd to ask if he'd be a betting favorite against Mike Tyson

You said Harvey and Morenz are better than Pronger and Lindros, so by your logic, a team of Harveys and Morenzs would be the favorites against a team of Prongers and Lindroses, right?

Just answer the question...
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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That's like saying Jack Dempsey is the best boxer ever, and then claiming it's absurd to ask if he'd be a betting favorite against Mike Tyson

You said Harvey and Morenz are better than Pronger and Lindros, so by your logic, a team of Harveys and Morenzs would be the favorites against a team of Prongers and Lindroses, right?

Just answer the question...

Boxing is not a team sport. Fighters are in the same weight class. Same size gloves. Muck easier to compare boxers.

In hockey, who's era are we playing in? Because rules are different, equipment is different, officiating is diferent. Big (literally) size difference as back in the day players were much smaller. Not to mention there is absolutely no way to determine how the Lindros's play with other Lindros's. Or Pronger's with Pronger's.

And how does betting favorite fit into this? I'm not a gambler, let alone a odds maker.

Like I said, absurd.
 
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Overrated

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That's like saying Jack Dempsey is the best boxer ever, and then claiming it's absurd to ask if he'd be a betting favorite against Mike Tyson

You said Harvey and Morenz are better than Pronger and Lindros, so by your logic, a team of Harveys and Morenzs would be the favorites against a team of Prongers and Lindroses, right?

Just answer the question...
I wouldn't be too sure about Pronger. Harvey was widely considered as the best defenseman ever before Orr emerged. I would always rank Lindros above Morenz though but that is because I really doubt the abilities of guys playing in the 1920s and 30s. The fact Morenz couldn't even dominate after 1932 and scored like 15 goals in his last 100 matches all of which were in his early mid thirties makes his case even weaker.
 

MadLuke

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That's like saying Jack Dempsey is the best boxer ever, and then claiming it's absurd to ask if he'd be a betting favorite against Mike Tyson
A 190 pounds fighter of the past could have an hard time against modern heavyweight (they would have been used to beat much bigger guy so maybe not but not necessarily has good one), maybe weight category below it would be clearer for era comp.

To take the extreme the other way around, take a time machine and the 500th best chess player in the world and they would we can imagine completely destroy Bobby Fischer, what does it mean regarding who was the best at chess ? Are we saying that it is impossible for the best human at the game of chess ever to not have peaked at it this year or last year ?

Old Kasparov of today maybe would destroy peak 1989-1994 Kasparov to take an maybe even more telling example, if you play 45s shift hockey, 1-3-1, modern stick-skate all around rules with 15 minutes to get used to it, I imagine Gordie Howe does not have a good time in a rookie camp (and the people having to play against his elbow and stick work neither).

That question of a team of Pronger's-Lindroses vs Morenz-Harvey would require a bit more context, are they all born in 1900 or 1975 ? Playing 1930 hockey or 1995 hockey ?
 

sdf

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Jan 23, 2015
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Rostov on Don
The chemistry between the players of the USSR national team did not come from the fact that they spent a lot of time playing with each other, this is an overestimated factor calming the ego of Canadians, they would be great even if they got together only a couple of weeks before any tournament
 
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jigglysquishy

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In January 1934 Morenz tore ligaments in his ankle and never recovered his speed. The medical ability to fix that was rudimentary in 1934. This was after battling injuries throughout the 1932-33 season. He started out hurt, lead the league in points in December, and then battled injuries throughout the year.

Really, 1931-32 is the last time he was healthy. He won the Hart Trophy.

It's not really an indication of the hockey of the era or him as a player, moreso the state of medicine. Just like Lindros washing out as an elite player in his late 20s doesn't mean the early 00s was such strong hockey, but rather the reality of his injuries.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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actually i totally think a team of three morenzes and two harveys would beat a team of three lindroses and two prongers

i don't think that's controversial at all
 

vadim sharifijanov

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I like 1998's defense and goaltending (even without Niedermayer on the back end...he should have been there instead of Foote), and 2002's forwards. The 1998 team would look a helluva lot better with Kariya there instead of one of Corson, Linden, Primeau, Brind'Amour, or Zamuner. That is 5 forwards out of 13 (counting Sakic) that would primarily be responsible for defensive/checking/physical play. That is too much, particularly on international ice. Guys like Primeau and Corson should never have been under consideration for a Canadian Olympic team.

it's interesting isn't it?

primeau played on the '96 and '98 teams, corson played on the '91 and '98 teams

these weren't just rob zamuner flavour of the month guys, they were team canada dudes

team brass thought about those guys the same way they thought about adam foote: not a star but as an elite role player

my hunch was always that in the 90s team canada overinvested in guys with two-way ability who played whole seasons at both wing and center. corson, primeau, brind'amour, linden, theo fleury, russ courtnall, vinnie damphousse, adam graves. they just really loved having that versatility.

since then, it's really just been marleau, carter, and matt duchene right?
 

MadLuke

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actually i totally think a team of three morenzes and two harveys would beat a team of three lindroses and two prongers
The full 20 minutes (or the magic game length) of under 6 footer playing against a team of those 2 could get rough by the end if it get physical.

But that could be true of 5 Gretzky playing against 5 Lindros depending on how it goes, and how the game is referee, but that does not mean Lindros > Gretzky.

Would 5 Jordan have a chance against 3 Olajuwon 1 Kareem 1 Shaq if it get physical and should it be the barometer ?

since then, it's really just been marleau, carter, and matt duchene right?
2002 Gagne had a bit of this (junior, first season with the Flyers), 2006 he was an high scoring winder, Shane Doan took a lot of faceoff some year I think, that fit a bit that nice 2 way mold.

Patrick Sharp has well for the 2014 squad.

I think one reason that it is too high, is because Canada can have offensive forward really good at playing defense when they get into it (even a Rick Nash) and if you give a good bonus to the big fast skater with good hands, it become too much to handle to the intl team group of Ds-Center over time, wave of Jeff Carters-Nash-Marleau, etc.. that a lot of speed and size to handle in between the big top lines of ultra elite players. And the Marchand-Bergeron-Toews are really good on the PK anyway, so was the Messier-Francis in the past.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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The full 20 minutes (or the magic game length) of under 6 footer playing against a team of those 2 could get rough by the end if it get physical.

But that could be true of 5 Gretzky playing against 5 Lindros depending on how it goes, and how the game is referee, but that does not mean Lindros > Gretzky.

Would 5 Jordan have a chance against 3 Olajuwon 1 Kareem 1 Shaq if it get physical and should it be the barometer ?

second two paragraphs, mostly agree except we have seen small teams beat big teams (in both sports—i mean, the smallball lineup of death)

but paragraph one, between those four players only morenz has ever played a 60 minute game right?

ultimately i am with you on the who cares this is stupid part but if i’m icing a lineup of 12 morenses and six harveys in a normal game against the same number of lindroses and prongers and there are rules and refs i just don’t see morenz and harvey losing.
 

MadLuke

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but paragraph one, between those four players only morenz has ever played a 60 minute game right?
If it is 12 and 6 instead of 3 vs 2 and a full 60 minutes, which what I have usually in mind, I meant a full 60 minutes of under 6 defencemen facing 4th line of full Lindros going much harder and faster pace than their usual because they play just 15 minutes could get rough. How much liberty the ref let the Pronger's do could be a big factor, they could get overwhelmed by the speed.

It is a team sport and the 5v5 clone metric is not nothing but not everything, maybe 5 Brett Hull would have an really hard time against 5 Brind'amour.
 

Overrated

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In January 1934 Morenz tore ligaments in his ankle and never recovered his speed. The medical ability to fix that was rudimentary in 1934. This was after battling injuries throughout the 1932-33 season. He started out hurt, lead the league in points in December, and then battled injuries throughout the year.

Really, 1931-32 is the last time he was healthy. He won the Hart Trophy.

It's not really an indication of the hockey of the era or him as a player, moreso the state of medicine. Just like Lindros washing out as an elite player in his late 20s doesn't mean the early 00s was such strong hockey, but rather the reality of his injuries.
Fair enough but I don't see him statistically dominate his peers even at his peak. When I isolate the period from 24/25 to 31/32 All Conacher, Stewart & Cook had similar GPG. In Howie's first prime professional season 24/25 he was outscored in goals by a who also played professional baseball during the same year by almost 50%.

Lindros on the other hand went out against prime Lemieux, Bure, Jagr, Sakic, Selanne and Forsberg. Despite his cups and individual awards I'd never rank Morenz over Lindros but that's my opinion.
 

Overrated

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The chemistry between the players of the USSR national team did not come from the fact that they spent a lot of time playing with each other, this is an overestimated factor calming the ego of Canadians, they would be great even if they got together only a couple of weeks before any tournament
I think it boils down to the fact Americans don't like the team aspect in team games. Ever wondered why equality in healthcare or education is frowned upon but somehow equality between sport teams in enforced through the draft and additional nonsensical rules like the salary cap? That is why upon seeing the team oriented style that emerged from Europe they viewed it as unfair. I remember being completely baffled when I read the posts from the user @Iapyi where he repeatedly claimed the Soviets were "cheating" despite committing fifth of the fouls the Canadians were but when I try looking at it from the perspective of a North American it can be comprehended what's being meant.

 
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MadLuke

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I think it boils down to the fact Americans don't like the team aspect in team games. Ever wondered why equality in healthcare or education is frowned upon but somehow equality between sport teams in enforced through the draft and additional nonsensical rules like the salary cap?
Americans (if we speak about United States citizen) were not mentioned in the message you quote. Equality in healthcare or education is not particularly unpopular in Canada (and in many place in the US, pretty much the country where the state spends the most on poor kids in education).

And the most popular sport in the US is football, a sport hard to argue that his not quite a team game with a large team aspect-myth around, many of the biggest American sport legends are coach and they have defense win championship type of popular saying.
 
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Overrated

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Americans (if we speak about United States citizen) were not mentioned in the message you quote. Equality in healthcare or education is not particularly unpopular in Canada (and in many place in the US, pretty much the country where the state spends the most on poor kids in education).
I think the NHL even though historically mostly Canadian in terms of the player base has been modeled after USA based sports. Most of the teams are in the USA after all. For example up until the 1970s one team Montreal Canadians was basically a super dynasty and nobody had an issue with it (or at least it appears to be like that in here where people reminisce rather fondly of the old Habs). The idea that having super teams and dynasties is something undesirable surely comes from the USA and not Canada although it has by now been likely adopted by Canadians as well. I'd say the salary cap has been maybe the greatest blunder in the structure of the league and I think the thinking that led to that is the same type of thinking which leads to the contempt for the Soviet as they call them "robot like" teams.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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My unpopular opinion, I don't care about the Messier Canucks saga.

36 year old legend goes to a new team and pretty much takes over the team. They weren't a playoff team when he arrived and had been middling since the Cup run. His first year he puts up second most points on the team and then battles injuries and age.

Sure, he acted like a douche. But it was 25 years ago and he was only there for 3 seasons. People act like he was punching kids in Burnaby and asked for the Grizzlies to leave.

The scale of the problem and the scale of the complaining are worlds apart.
Normally I don't care about what an athlete does after his prime. Chelios playing 11 minutes per game on the Atlanta Thrashers doesn't detract from his career in any way.

Leadership is a bit different. Athletes gradual get worse as they age for physical reasons - due to accumulated injuries, slower metabolism, less rapid acceleration, etc. But leadership doesn't depend on any specific physical traits. Leadership shouldn't get worse over time - if anything, it should improve due to life experience. I don't fault Messier for his goal-scoring or physicality being worse in his late 30's, but I think it's fair to question his reputation as an all-time great leader.

(Messier always seemed like a "my way or the highway" type of captain. In certain situations, that can be very effective. In others, that could ruin a team's dynamics. I think the biggest issue with Messier's leadership is he lacked versatility. You can't use the same approach on different teams and expect the same results. We don't truly know what goes on behind closed doors, but (from interviews of these players, and their teammates), it seems like many of the other all-time great captains - Gretzky, Beliveau, Crosby, Sakic, Yzerman, etc - have a more varied skillset when it comes to leadership).
 

NordiquesForeva

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it's interesting isn't it?

primeau played on the '96 and '98 teams, corson played on the '91 and '98 teams

these weren't just rob zamuner flavour of the month guys, they were team canada dudes

team brass thought about those guys the same way they thought about adam foote: not a star but as an elite role player

my hunch was always that in the 90s team canada overinvested in guys with two-way ability who played whole seasons at both wing and center. corson, primeau, brind'amour, linden, theo fleury, russ courtnall, vinnie damphousse, adam graves. they just really loved having that versatility.

since then, it's really just been marleau, carter, and matt duchene right?

Canada didn't build teams as strong as they could have in the 1990s. Part of it was a preference for the bigger, two-way winger/centre type (as you mentioned), but part of it was simply player availability. Apart from 1991, when Keenan infamously cut Yzerman, Sakic and several other noteworthy stars, how many players can we say were truly wrongfully omitted from Team Canada? Maybe Messier in 1998, maybe (maybe) Turgeon, Francis or Oates in 1998...? In hindsight we can say that some younger guys like Friesen or Marleau should have gotten a look in 1998 on the larger ice surface, but that's working around the edges of the team.

Team Canada in that era was likely always destined to be constructed as it was, given the draft pedigree and international experience that guys like Linden, Primeau, and Brind'Amour had (though truthfully, given the way he departed Detroit there is absolutely zero chance I would let Primeau anywhere near a Team Canada roster). Once guys like that make one roster, its hard to knock them off in future tournaments. We saw that again, to our detriment, in 2006 with guys like Doan, Draper and Smyth.
 

jigglysquishy

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I think the NHL even though historically mostly Canadian in terms of the player base has been modeled after USA based sports. Most of the teams are in the USA after all. For example up until the 1970s one team Montreal Canadians was basically a super dynasty and nobody had an issue with it. The idea that having super teams and dynasties is something undesirable surely comes from the USA and not Canada although it has by now been likely adopted by Canadians as well. I'd say the salary cap has been maybe the greatest blunder in the structure of the league.
I'm sorry but this is complete fabrication.

The NHL was still headquartered in Canada until 1989. James Norris was the controlling interest for the Blackhawks, Red Wings, and Rangers until the early 50s. He was Canadian.

The league was exclusively Canadian from 1911 until 1927. And had majority Canadian controlling stake until 1952.

Outside owners themselves, team management was overwhelmingly Canadian. American desk staff didn't overtake Canadian desk until 1967.

The NFL and NBA weren't fully developed until the late 50s (MLB was obviously much older). It's ludicrous to say the NHL was historically modeled off them when it's an older league.

All four leagues have very different history until about 1960 when TV and expansion solidified a repeatable business model.

The NHL, in terms of the suits, remained Canadian until the 80s.

Sure, now it's overwhelmingly American. But it just wasn't in its formative years.

Hockey has a history of dynasties going back to Silver Seven Senators and 1890s Montreal AAA team. It is in no way an American importation or reflective of American culture.
 

Mike C

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Jan 24, 2022
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actually i totally think a team of three morenzes and two harveys would beat a team of three lindroses and two prongers

i don't think that's controversial at all
Wouldn't it be one of each?

I wouldn't put too many guys ahead of Harvey and I'd never consider Pronger OR Lindross. Orr for sure, Potvin probably, Lindstrom probably. A couple like Robinson and Bourque on par or close enough along with Eddie Shore, Serge Savard
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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, how many players can we say were truly wrongfully omitted from Team Canada?
Not that egregious case but 2006 you have Crosby, Spezza, Staal not used.

In the 97 and 98 season the Canadian with the most points after Gretzky were Francis and Oates, Turgeon was 6th, Messier 10.

All of thoses were not no brainer should have been there, injury (Kariya-Sakic in 98, Niedermayer in 06) were probably bigger deals than manager choice.
 

Victorias

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May 1, 2022
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Unpopular take: Sakic, Jagr, Ovechkin, and Lidstrom were all as good if not better than Beliveau, Hull, Richard, and Harvey
 
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