Unpopular opinions

[Mike C]

Tier 1: Howe & Gretzky
Tier 2: Hasek & Orr
Tier 3: the Canadiens

Tier 1 . Orr and Gretzky
Tier 2. Howe and Mario
Tier 3. Everyone else who's ever played

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Messier should have re-signed and retired with the Canucks.

Just feel that even an older and washed up Messier would have helped that young cocky early 2000s team... certainly a more eventful end to his career then back in New York.

Don't @ me Canuck fans.

 

[The Panther]

Messier should have re-signed and retired with the Canucks.

Just feel that even an older and washed up Messier would have helped that young cocky early 2000s team... certainly a more eventful end to his career then back in New York.

Don't @ me Canuck fans.

I've considered that as a favorable possibility, too. Mess's going back to New York was just kind of a bit fat zero. He would have been better off settling into a veteran 2nd/3rd-line role with the Canucks in the Marc Crawford era...

 

[NOTENOUGHRYJOTHINGS]

hmm, this is interesting. it's never occurred to me before but let's look:

goal: '98 roy vs '02 brodeur. edge to '98, draw at best.

defence: blake, bourque, desjardins, foote, macinnis, pronger, stevens vs blake, foote, macinnis, niedermayer, pronger... and jovo and eric brewer. edge to '98 easily.

forwards, i'm not sure. partially because crawford's lines made no sense.

brind'amour lindros corson
shanahan gretzky yzerman
linden primeau recchi
zamuner nieuwendyk fleury

vs

gagne sakic iginla
kariya lemieux yzerman
smyth lindros nolan
shanahan nieuwendyk fleury

that '02 top six was just so damn good.

Sakic was on the 98 team. He didn't play all the games but was still one of Canada's better scoring forwards.

Sakic has the legendary 2002 Olympics but otherwise his performance for team Canada has been mixed. Going from the 1996 world cup to the 2006 Olympics he played 5 best on best tournaments and had top results in 2002 and in 2004 (but Lecavalier was the leading scorer). But the other three tournaments he didn't do very well.

 

[Sheppy]

Grant Fuhr was never that good.

 

[The Panther]

Grant Fuhr was never that good.

As an lifelong Oilers' fan, I can say that Grant Fuhr was over-rated by the hockey media at certain times. Notably during the 1987 Canada Cup and especially the 1987-88 season (when he won the Vezina and got more Hart votes than Gretzky!) and at various other times as well.

However, he was very good, and especially in key moments (playoffs, basically). When you enter the NHL at 19 and then go 28-5-14 as a rookie, you're usually pretty good.

One of these days, I'd like to go over the game summaries from c.1981 to 1988 (Gretzky-era Oilers with Fuhr) and see how many of the goals against Edmonton were of the meaningless variety, i.e., third period goals with the Oilers already up by three or more goals. There were a lot, and the Oilers gave up far more of these types of chances / goals-against than "normal" teams did.

Fuhr sucked in 1988-89, though. Was good again when he came back for the 1991 playoffs, but then lost his game until 1995-96 with St.Louis.

 

[MS]

Messier should have re-signed and retired with the Canucks.

Just feel that even an older and washed up Messier would have helped that young cocky early 2000s team... certainly a more eventful end to his career then back in New York.

Don't @ me Canuck fans.

There would have been riots. Fans spent 3 years counting that loser's contract down and it was basically a party when it ended.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

There would have been riots. Fans spent 3 years counting that loser's contract down and it was basically a party when it ended.

I have never met a single Canucks fan with a positive word to say about Messier...and I 100% genuinely believe them.

 

[kruezer]

Bobby Clarke is grossly over-rated and is largely a product of the team he played on.

If Clarke was drafted by the St. Louis Blues instead of the Flyers, he wouldn't have been insulated by the toughest team in hockey and therefore wouldn't have been able to play his chippy style without repercussions and his career totals would look quite different.

This one I am totally on the other side of. First off I think way too much attention is paid to Clarke’s chippyness but I actually think he’s the most easily translatable of the star forwards of the seventies into other eras and teams mainly because his hockey IQ was off the charts. He was chippy cause he could be with the Flyers but his game was extremely subtle I think and I think if we had the advantage of the stats tracked today being tracked back then we’d see he was Bergeron level defensively with Thornton level passing. He didn’t need the chippyness to succeed, he just used everything he could to his advantage.

Second I actually think his teams held him back, obviously the goalie issues hurt Philly but if they had surrounded him with more depth than goons perhaps they could have kept things going longer vs the 70s dynasty habs.

It’s often forgotten just how dominant he was in junior because of how messy the western junior leagues were back then but he was easily the best prospect in the 69 draft purely on offense alone.

To the Espo over Jagr poster I am an avowed Espo fan who routinely feels he gets disrespected in clutch moments despite being the lynchpin for Canada in the biggest hockey series ever in terms of pressure, but I fully am on board with the 90s being more competitive than the 70s argument and it’s why I have Howe above Orr in my personal rankings. So I don’t know if I can quite put Espo over Jagr but I’m open to it.

 

[Mike C]

This one I am totally on the other side of. First off I think way too much attention is paid to Clarke’s chippyness but I actually think he’s the most easily translatable of the star forwards of the seventies into other eras and teams mainly because his hockey IQ was off the charts. He was chippy cause he could be with the Flyers but his game was extremely subtle I think and I think if we had the advantage of the stats tracked today being tracked back then we’d see he was Bergeron level defensively with Thornton level passing. He didn’t need the chippyness to succeed, he just used everything he could to his advantage.

Second I actually think his teams held him back, obviously the goalie issues hurt Philly but if they had surrounded him with more depth than goons perhaps they could have kept things going longer vs the 70s dynasty habs.

It’s often forgotten just how dominant he was in junior because of how messy the western junior leagues were back then but he was easily the best prospect in the 69 draft purely on offense alone.

To the Espo over Jagr poster I am an avowed Espo fan who routinely feels he gets disrespected in clutch moments despite being the lynchpin for Canada in the biggest hockey series ever in terms of pressure, but I fully am on board with the 90s being more competitive than the 70s argument and it’s why I have Howe above Orr in my personal rankings. So I don’t know if I can quite put Espo over Jagr but I’m open to it.

Clarke was the heart and soul of the Flyers. The product of the team was largely due to his presence. I feel he, much like Bryan Trottier, is not respected enough as one of the most complete players who ever lived

 

[Mike C]

Phil Esposito > Jaromir Jagr.

Simply dominated his competition more than Jagr did in both overall production and goalscoring. Jagr's prime is barely longer and nowhere near enough to bridge the gap.

Orr's impact on Esposito's production is overstated imo.

Orr

Phil Esposito > Jaromir Jagr.

Simply dominated his competition more than Jagr did in both overall production and goalscoring. Jagr's prime is barely longer and nowhere near enough to bridge the gap.

Orr's impact on Esposito's production is overstated imo.

Ore and Phil were great independent of each other. Phil put up great numbers with the Rangers with Ron Greschner. Orr didn't need Phil to excel and Phil didn't need Orr

 

[LightningStorm]

There would have been riots. Fans spent 3 years counting that loser's contract down and it was basically a party when it ended.

Pretty much how I view it from the outside. Messier was pretty washed by 2000 (going back to when he signed with the Canucks). At least going back to the Rangers had sentimental value to it.

 

[The Panther]

There would have been riots. Fans spent 3 years counting that loser's contract down and it was basically a party when it ended.

Reality disagrees with you. Mess was solid in 1999-00, the Canucks were better when he was in the line-up, and he was voted team MVP by fans.

 

[Neutrinos]

Because he was a better player.

Were Chris Pronger and Eric Lindros not better than Doug Harvey and Howie Morenz?

Who was better rarely seems to factor into these all-time rankings

 

[CokenoPepsi]

There would have been riots. Fans spent 3 years counting that loser's contract down and it was basically a party when it ended.

Eh, I think that a little silly.

His body was worn down a bit but he could still play... I think he exactly the type of player they needed in those few years outside the obvious goalie.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Were Chris Pronger and Eric Lindros not better than Doug Harvey and Howie Morenz?

Who was better rarely seems to factor into these all-time rankings

No, they weren't.

Who was better certainly plays into my rankings.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Grant Fuhr was never that good.

A trash can would have the same results behind the 80s Oilers as Fuhr did. Just look at Moog and Ranford's success there.

Fuhr = Cheevers except no one complains about him being in the HOF

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

A trash can would have the same results behind the 80s Oilers as Fuhr did. Just look at Moog and Ranford's success there.

Fuhr = Cheevers except no one complains about him being in the HOF

Are you kidding?

Playing behind the freewheeling Oilers was no treat for a goalie.

 

[jigglysquishy]

My unpopular opinion, I don't care about the Messier Canucks saga.

36 year old legend goes to a new team and pretty much takes over the team. They weren't a playoff team when he arrived and had been middling since the Cup run. His first year he puts up second most points on the team and then battles injuries and age.

Sure, he acted like a douche. But it was 25 years ago and he was only there for 3 seasons. People act like he was punching kids in Burnaby and asked for the Grizzlies to leave.

The scale of the problem and the scale of the complaining are worlds apart.

 

[Neutrinos]

No, they weren't.

Who was better certainly plays into my rankings.

So, you think a team made up of Doug Harveys and Howie Morenzs should be the betting favorites over a team of Prongers and Lindroses?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

So, you think a team made up of Doug Harveys and Howie Morenzs should be the betting favorites over a team of Prongers and Lindroses?

That's an absurd scenario, isn't it?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I guess by that logic I'd take a team of Matt Cooke's over a team of Gretzkys...Cooke had really good hockey sense, so he's not just a headless chicken goon, but most of those Gretzkys are not finishing the game...

 

[MadLuke]

A trash can would have the same results behind the 80s Oilers as Fuhr did. Just look at Moog and Ranford's success there.

Moog still had some low Vezina vote at 36 with Dallas much later on, i.e. you do not stay a number 1 in the nhl for that long without being quite good.

Which is maybe a part of the discussion around Fuhr that can be hard between 2 different person talking about it, how much they value being able to give average starting goaltender performance over a large amount of game season after season and in the playoff.

Imagine the Senator-Canucks having that in the late 90s,earlys 00s.

Hard to say, but if the value is equivalent to have a 80 game a year player able to play around an average #1D (who will change all the time depending of who is peaking), year after year, that a lot.

I would not use Moog, a 18 season nhler, got vezina votes 4 season post Oilers has a trash can bar, he was a deluxe number 2 able of being a number 1 getting invited to the all-star game.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Moog still had some low Vezina vote at 36 with Dallas much later on, i.e. you do not stay a number 1 in the nhl for that long without being quite good.

Which is maybe a part of the discussion around Fuhr that can be hard between 2 different person talking about it, how much they value being able to give average starting goaltender performance over a large amount of game season after season and in the playoff.

Imagine the Senator-Canucks having that in the late 90s,earlys 00s.

Hard to say, but if the value is achieving to have a 80 game a year player able to play has good as the yearly average #1D (who will change all the time depending of who is peaking), year after year, that a lot.

I would not use Moog, a 18 season nhler, got vezina votes 4 season post Oilers has a trash can bar, he was a deluxe number 2 able of being a number 1 getting invited to the all-star game.

And Ranford won a Cup and a Smythe with the Gretzky-less Oilers.

Was also brilliant for team Canada in the 1991 Canada Cup and the 1993 & 1994 World Championships.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Moog still had some low Vezina vote at 36 with Dallas much later on, i.e. you do not stay a number 1 in the nhl for that long without being quite good.

Which is maybe a part of the discussion around Fuhr that can be hard between 2 different person talking about it, how much they value being able to give average starting goaltender performance over a large amount of game season after season and in the playoff.

Imagine the Senator-Canucks having that in the late 90s,earlys 00s.

Hard to say, but if the value is achieving to have a 80 game a year player able to play has good as the yearly average #1D (who will change all the time depending of who is peaking), year after year, that a lot.

I would not use Moog, a 18 season nhler, got vezina votes 4 season post Oilers has a trash can bar, he was a deluxe number 2 able of being a number 1 getting invited to the all-star game.

Agreed, I wasn't using Moog/Ranford as the trash can bar as much as to show that it didn't matter who the Oilers plugged back there they didnt miss a beat, showing that Fuhr was more "the guy who happened to be there" than "the guy"