Uh Oh. Matt Murray Leaves Practice LTIR'd (injury discussion)

[DarkKnight]

Did I say that? No I said the leafs acquired Matt Murray knowing that if he ever got injured, they could take advantage of LTIR given their cap situation and have Samsonov who they believe in equally. I don’t think they like one goalie over the other. I think they acquired two they are happy with. Matt Murray wasn’t brought to be the guy. He was brought in to battle and be part of a true tandem this year. Not really a hard concept to grasp

This LTIR angle, I think that’s a bit of spin. Sure it’s self evident now, why wouldn’t you put a groin injury on, but if anyone actually thinks this was all part of some plan, come on. Also, Murray was the first choice, Sam the safety valve (perhaps here because of injury concerns, insurance). They actually retained half on Murray, clearly they wanted him.

Why can’t we just admit, he took a big gamble and three games in the concerns already manifested itself. Give him credit for getting Sam too, but criticize away for thinking damaged goods was somehow the answer. It was always finger crossed for the Leafs with Murray and that never appears sound strategy to me.

 

[francis246]

This LTIR angle, I think that’s a bit of spin. Sure it’s self evident now, why wouldn’t you put a groin injury on, but if anyone actually thinks this was all part of some plan, come on. Also, Murray was the first choice, Sam the safety valve (perhaps here because of injury concerns, insurance). They actually retained half on Murray, clearly they wanted him.

Why can’t we just admit, he took a big gamble and three games in the concerns already manifested itself. Give him credit for getting Sam too, but criticize away for thinking damaged goods was somehow the answer. It was always finger crossed for the Leafs with Murray and that never appears sound strategy to me.

They Obviously didn’t want him to get hurt. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying the leafs knew the gamble. But they also knew given his history if they needed to LTIR him because of an injury no matter if it was big or small they would do that.

1. It helps their cap. 2. It gives Murray extra time to recover because he gets injured so quickly.

If you think GM’s don’t go over ever single scenario before making a decision I’m not sure what to tell you. This was definitely a scenario they discussed if it were to happen. So I’m okay with it

And no they wanted a tandem. The leafs have been trying to create a tandem system for the last 3 years but one or both goalies have gotten hurt each time

 

[francis246]

This LTIR angle, I think that’s a bit of spin. Sure it’s self evident now, why wouldn’t you put a groin injury on, but if anyone actually thinks this was all part of some plan, come on. Also, Murray was the first choice, Sam the safety valve (perhaps here because of injury concerns, insurance). They actually retained half on Murray, clearly they wanted him.

Why can’t we just admit, he took a big gamble and three games in the concerns already manifested itself. Give him credit for getting Sam too, but criticize away for thinking damaged goods was somehow the answer. It was always finger crossed for the Leafs with Murray and that never appears sound strategy to me.

And what does retention have to do with anything? No matter how much you like a guy, you should be trying to get the other team to retain as much salary as possible. That’s just an industry norm. Any cap savings are good…

 

[4thline]

@Tak7 when the link comes up I will link Darren Dreger on First Up. He just backed up my claim. He literally just said that this injury could be a 5 day injury; but given the leafs cap situation they are taking advantage of LTIR and just giving Matt Murray extra time to recover. Said basically it was a bit fishy that he went on LTIR. Given the original notes after injury. Aka basically this is more of a cap move rather than a major injury.

This makes a whole lot of sense in retrospect. We went from an in practice tweak to LTIR in the space of hours. Barely time for him to see the team doctor let alone an external specialist, and almost certainly no scans.

If we were planning on leaning on him there's no way he'd be shut down that quickly

 

[Ianturnedbull]

k……
Matt Murray has also lead a team to a Stanley Cup. Twice.
He came with a bunch of risks but so did every other option out there.

But hey if you want to freak out go for it. I already told you I don’t care what you do. Maybe you can hold another emergency Leaf’s board meeting.

Lol. We don't know all the options. Johnson/Friedman don't know either. They are not in boardrooms and on phone calls.

Yeah you don't care.

 

[SprDaVE]

This makes a whole lot of sense in retrospect. We went from an in practice tweak to LTIR in the space of hours. Barely time for him to see the team doctor let alone an external specialist, and almost certainly no scans.

Yeah I also thought it was very weird how he went from discomfort to LTIR. I do think the Leafs 100% pushed this to be able to take some form of advantage from it. They can't really afford him to be day to day for 2 weeks, so might as well shut him down for a sure amount of time and revaluate.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

This makes a whole lot of sense in retrospect. We went from an in practice tweak to LTIR in the space of hours. Barely time for him to see the team doctor let alone an external specialist, and almost certainly no scans.

If we were planning on leaning on him there's no way he'd be shut down that quickly

I think you might be turning this into a positive spin though.

To me it's two things at once:

1. TOR is too capped out to have a full roster
2. Murray is injured early and potentially injured often

 

[Mess]

And what does retention have to do with anything? No matter how much you like a guy, you should be trying to get the other team to retain as much salary as possible. That’s just an industry norm. Any cap savings are good…

Had Leafs gotten 50% retention on Murrray deal, and not been in Cap Hell not even able to carry a single spare player, then would Murray be on IR now as opposed to LTIR?

Putting Murray their starting goalie on LTIR allowed them to recall Kallgren and 3 other players using LTIR re-imbursement advantage..

 

[francis246]

Had Leafs gotten 50% retention on Murrray deal, and not been in Cap Hell not even able to carry a single spare player, then would Murray be on IR now as opposed to LTIR?

Putting Murray their starting goalie on LTIR allowed them to recall Kallgren and 3 other players using LTIR re-imbursement advantage..

mess you’re literally repeating what I’ve been saying. He was referencing the leafs really liking Murray and sighting retention. And I said, whether you like a player a lot or even just a little. GM’s should always try and negotiation or ask for as much retention as possible. Given how many teams are getting squeezed by the cap. Having those savings are important. The leafs got as much retention as Ottawa was willing to give without the leafs having to give up an asset to get more. Not sure what people want Dubas to do? Pay an additional asset? Come on now, if he did that people wouldn’t even care about the cap space, they’d just be pissed that Dubas paid to get cap space.

I’m not a Dubas lover or hater. I just like him in general. But people take every opportunity to shit on him. It’s crazy.

 

[francis246]

I think you might be turning this into a positive spin though.

To me it's two things at once:

1. TOR is too capped out to have a full roster
2. Murray is injured early and potentially injured often

Why is it about a positive or negative spin. It’s just what’s happening. There’s no positive/negative angle to it. Murray got injured, leafs have a cap problem. They killed two birds with one stone. Why do people get upset that a problem occurred and management addressed it. Get a gripppp it’s not a big deal

 

[Nineteen67]

This LTIR angle, I think that’s a bit of spin. Sure it’s self evident now, why wouldn’t you put a groin injury on, but if anyone actually thinks this was all part of some plan, come on. Also, Murray was the first choice, Sam the safety valve (perhaps here because of injury concerns, insurance). They actually retained half on Murray, clearly they wanted him.

Why can’t we just admit, he took a big gamble and three games in the concerns already manifested itself. Give him credit for getting Sam too, but criticize away for thinking damaged goods was somehow the answer. It was always finger crossed for the Leafs with Murray and that never appears sound strategy to me.

They were looking to LTIR anyone outside the core and needed an injury to justify it.
After the Lightning were successful with this approach, it was predictable and a smart way to circumvent the cap.

 

[ToneDog]

This LTIR angle, I think that’s a bit of spin. Sure it’s self evident now, why wouldn’t you put a groin injury on, but if anyone actually thinks this was all part of some plan, come on. Also, Murray was the first choice, Sam the safety valve (perhaps here because of injury concerns, insurance). They actually retained half on Murray, clearly they wanted him.

Why can’t we just admit, he took a big gamble and three games in the concerns already manifested itself. Give him credit for getting Sam too, but criticize away for thinking damaged goods was somehow the answer. It was always finger crossed for the Leafs with Murray and that never appears sound strategy to me.

LOL. They had a chance to LTIR Muzzin last year and free up cap space prior to the TDL and did not. Some claimed the Leafs would not do that to take advantage of the rule. Now with Murray, we are bending the rule. I mean is the league too dumb to allow teams to so easily circumvent to rules ?? Don't answer that.

 

[SprDaVE]

LOL. They had a chance to LTIR Muzzin last year and free up cap space prior to the TDL and did not. Some claimed the Leafs would not do that to take advantage of the rule. Now with Murray, we are bending the rule. I mean is the league too dumb to allow teams to so easily circumvent to rules ?? Don't answer that.

Muzzin was on LTIR at the time. The Leafs would have had to LTIR Muzzin for over 2 months and for the rest of the regular season. And that was to to be able to add another big player at the deadline, not to be able to carry a couple spare players.

The situation is completely different. One is completely bending the rule and getting close to breaking it, while the other is simple letting a player heal for a couple more weeks, while opening cap space to carry a few extras in the mean time. It's not even remotely close to the same thing.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Why is it about a positive or negative spin. It’s just what’s happening. There’s no positive/negative angle to it. Murray got injured, leafs have a cap problem. They killed two birds with one stone. Why do people get upset that a problem occurred and management addressed it. Get a gripppp it’s not a big deal

It's a big deal, and it's a problem.

Yeah it won't likely stop TOR from qualifying for the playoffs, but due to cap structure/personale they will likely bow out in the first round of the playoffs. It's also a big deal because Shanny/Kyle/Keefe's jobs are on the line.

 

[ToneDog]

The Leafs would have had to LTIR Muzzin for over 2 months. And that was to add a player at the deadline, not to be able to carry a couple spare players.

The situation is completely different. One is completely bending the rule and getting close to breaking it, while the other is simple letting a player heal for a couple more weeks.

Agreed but wouldn't it be more advantageous to be able to add a significant forward (perhaps a Nick Paul??) at the TDL then to be able to carry extra bodies the first month of the season ??

 

[SprDaVE]

Agreed but wouldn't it be more advantageous to be able to add a significant forward (perhaps a Nick Paul??) at the TDL then to be able to carry extra bodies the first month of the season ??

Muzzin returned before the end of the season and was projected to be healthy. Muzzin was full practicing when the trade deadline was happening. Murray isn't going to miss the entire season either.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at.

 

[Stephen]

@Tak7 when the link comes up I will link Darren Dreger on First Up. He just backed up my claim. He literally just said that this injury could be a 5 day injury; but given the leafs cap situation they are taking advantage of LTIR and just giving Matt Murray extra time to recover. Said basically it was a bit fishy that he went on LTIR. Given the original notes after injury. Aka basically this is more of a cap move rather than a major injury.

It would be interesting to see if Dr. Dreger gets into any issues the way he reports on the Leafs. I find he’s taken a very odd position regarding Toronto that feels almost like trolling than expose journalism.

 

[ToneDog]

Muzzin returned before the end of the season and was projected to be healthy. Murray isn't going to miss the entire season either.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at.

They had the option to put Muzzin on LTIR and bring him back for the playoffs and open up cap space to acquire a piece (s) at the TDL. They brought him back early instead. IIRC it was discussed in the media and in this forum.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Well to be expected i guess with Murray .. he aggravated da groin in practice .. who knows how bad it is .. mlse sports medicine used to have Trillium's old soft tissue scanner at Ford a few years ago so likely he got scanned and then team decided to LTIR him on team docs review .. then he would go for further scans with newer equipment scanners at hospital but a strain is a strain and with his history 3-6 weeks is not uncommon given he has had quite a few over da years .. I would not read too much more into this move .. and like any soft tissue injury you can get 10 different opinions from 10 different docs

 

[SprDaVE]

They had the option to put Muzzin on LTIR and bring him back for the playoffs and open up cap space to acquire a piece (s) at the TDL. They brought him back early instead. IIRC it was discussed in the media and in this forum.

It was discussed as a possibility. Dubas said he wasn't going to miss the entire season and would be back. And he was back before the end of the season.

So again... What does this have to do with Matt Murray going on LTIR?

 

[ToneDog]

It was discussed as a possibility. Dubas said he wasn't going to miss the entire season and would be back. And he was back before the end of the season.

So again... What does this have to do with Matt Murray going on LTIR?

At the time some said they would not bend the rule because the Leafs were too honorable (not in those words) yet today they are even though they think Murray is really not seriously hurt to be put on LTIR. I am not questioning the move, I am questioning the spin. I am saying Murray is hurt and needs a month to get healthy.

 

[Nineteen67]

It's a big deal, and it's a problem.

Yeah it won't likely stop TOR from qualifying for the playoffs, but due to cap structure/personale they will likely bow out in the first round of the playoffs. It's also a big deal because Shanny/Kyle/Keefe's jobs are on the line.

I thought going into the season this team was going to contend for 1st in the Atlantic, but I’m not as convinced now. Mostly, I figured the rest of the division was weaker, but even though it’s very early, the Leafs are not as good as I thought.

 

[Tak7]

@Tak7 when the link comes up I will link Darren Dreger on First Up. He just backed up my claim. He literally just said that this injury could be a 5 day injury; but given the leafs cap situation they are taking advantage of LTIR and just giving Matt Murray extra time to recover. Said basically it was a bit fishy that he went on LTIR. Given the original notes after injury. Aka basically this is more of a cap move rather than a major injury.

If it was a 5 day injury, he wouldn't be on LTIR.

You don't put a goalie who needs 5 days of recovery, on a 21-day minimum injury provision. They could have got through the Ottawa game with an ATO and had Kallgren up here on Sunday if that were the case

 

[GrizzGreen]

FEED me Hildebeast

 

[CupcakeSprinkles]

FEED me Hildebeast

This is why Samsonov signed with the Leafs. He knew fully Murray was oft injured and saw the opportunity to steal the job.