Player Discussion Tyler Kleven (D) at 44th Overall (Sens traded up)

[RickyLafleur]

Hope he's good but in hindsight should've just taken Faber when they had the chance.

 

[Dionysus]

Hope he's good but in hindsight should've just taken Faber when they had the chance.

Faber is a monster. Looked on Sandersons level at the WJC. Was surprised LA traded him. Now playing very well in Minny.

Hope Kleven can crack the Sens D next season. The glut of LD is something they will have to sort out. Nobody has proven they can play the right side well yet.

 

[Dan Patrick]

Hope he's good but in hindsight should've just taken Faber when they had the chance.

Sure, and if we drafted with perfect foresight every year we’d be an unbeatable dynasty. Lots of bad picks after Klevin and some good ones. I’m just stoked Klevin looks like he’ll be a player in the NHL right now.

 

[Xspyrit]

Can't be mad with the Kleven pick but the fact that Faber is a RHD makes you wish we'd have picked him

Chabot - Faber
Sanderson - Zub
Chychrun - JBD

Elite defense (with the right coaching staff having them playing the right way of course)

Brannstrom traded for a young forward

 

[RickyLafleur]

Sure, and if we drafted with perfect foresight every year we’d be an unbeatable dynasty. Lots of bad picks after Klevin and some good ones. I’m just stoked Klevin looks like he’ll be a player in the NHL right now.

It is what it is. Most teams that are rebuilding have better prospect pools than Ottawa who is comfortably ranked in the bottom 5 right now. Outside of Batherson, our drafting has been abysmal when you don't factor in top 5 picks like Stutzle, Tkachuk & Sanderson. During the most recent rebuild, the Sens wasted so many 2nd round picks on reaches that never panned out like Sokolov and Roger. There was absolutely 0 need for more LHD, and you didn't even need hindsight to know that Faber was the right pick of the two considering they played together in college.

 

[Masked]

During the most recent rebuild, the Sens wasted so many 2nd round picks on reaches that never panned out like Sokolov and Roger. There was absolutely 0 need for more LHD, and you didn't even need hindsight to know that Faber was the right pick of the two considering they played together in college.

Most second rounders never pan out. Some do. Like Pinto or Formenton.

Why was there 0 need for LHD? At the 2020 draft there was a need for EVERYTHING.

Neither Faber or Kleven had played in college when they were drafted so I'm not sure why you don't need hindsight to know that Faber was the right pick.

 

[Dan Patrick]

It is what it is. Most teams that are rebuilding have better prospect pools than Ottawa who is comfortably ranked in the bottom 5 right now. Outside of Batherson, our drafting has been abysmal when you don't factor in top 5 picks like Stutzle, Tkachuk & Sanderson. During the most recent rebuild, the Sens wasted so many 2nd round picks on reaches that never panned out like Sokolov and Roger. There was absolutely 0 need for more LHD, and you didn't even need hindsight to know that Faber was the right pick of the two considering they played together in college.

This is a Klevin thread and not a Ottawa’s prospect pool thread so I’m not sure I want to get into it about drafting but it’s telling you left out Pinto, Greig, Formenton, JBD crookshank and Jarventie who all look like or are/were (non-hockey stuff aside) players. Plenty of good players taken outside the top 5. I get that shitting on Ottawa’s drafting is an easy snipe right now but at least come at it with a well reasoned argument. Klevin is not the player to be getting upset about.

 

[Micklebot]

Neither Faber or Kleven had played in college when they were drafted so I'm not sure why you don't need hindsight to know that Faber was the right pick.

Kleven was not well liked by a lot of the online scouting community, had some really wild opinions on him. McKenzie had him well ahead of Faber though.

 

[JD1]

How much better does this team look with Formenton and Pinto in, Kelly and Chartier out?

We're missing two key young pieces that have nothing to do with hockey

Edit: 55 man games played between Kelly and Chartier. 3 goals scored. Probably safe to assume Formenton and Pinto have 15 between them. Let alone any defensive impact. That +12 goal differential leads to how many more points?

 

[RickyLafleur]

Most second rounders never pan out. Some do. Like Pinto or Formenton.

Why was there 0 need for LHD? At the 2020 draft there was a need for EVERYTHING.

Neither Faber or Kleven had played in college when they were drafted so I'm not sure why you don't need hindsight to know that Faber was the right pick.

Ottawa RHD at the time of the 2020 draft: Artem Zub, Jacob Bernard-Docker, Nitika Zaitsev, and Josh Brown. Most 2nd round picks don't make it? Now you're being disingenuous.

This is a Klevin thread and not a Ottawa’s prospect pool thread so I’m not sure I want to get into it about drafting but it’s telling you left out Pinto, Greig, Formenton, JBD crookshank and Jarventie who all look like or are/were (non-hockey stuff aside) players. Plenty of good players taken outside the top 5. I get that shitting on Ottawa’s drafting is an easy snipe right now but at least come at it with a well reasoned argument. Klevin is not the player to be getting upset about.

I don't mean the derail this thread, but I can tell you that I did not forget those players, even though only one of them has made a positive impact on this team so far.

Year​	​ 2nd Round Played in the NHL​	Played 100+ games​	Sens Results/Notes​
2013​	23/30​	13​	Curtis Lazar (17) Playing on the 4th line in NJ​
2014​	18/30​	11​	Andreas Englund (40) Playing 3rd pair LA​
2015​	23/31​	18​	Chabot (15) Daccord (199), waived in the Seattle expansion draft ​
2016​	24/31​	17​	Logan Brown (11) and Jonathan Dahlin (42) out of league by 2023​
2017​	23/32​	11​	Shane Bowers (28) is the only complete bust in the first round, everyone else has between 70 and 403 GP. Formenton (47) Good pick, but out of the league by 2022. Batherson (121) Home run Pick​
2018​	18/32​	7​	Brady Tkachuk (3), current captain and possible 3rd/4th liner Angus Crookshank (126) ​
2019​	22/32​	3​	Shane Pinto (32) Suspended for half a season for gambling. Possibly 1A/1B in Mads Soogard (37) and Mark Kastelic (125) as the team's current 4C. ​
2020​	14/32​	1​	Stutzle (3), Sanderson (5) & Grieg (28). The first round was a home run. Jarventie (33) Boom/Bust Pick, but no room in the top 6 for him. Could’ve taken Peterka or Faber as well to have the best sens draft in history. ​
2021​	5/32​	1​	Tyler Boucher (10) and not a single player drafted after #69 played a single game in the NHL. ​
2022​	4​	0​	Traded 7 overall for 1 year of Alex Debrincat. Could’ve taken Korchinski, or Minyukov, sens likely take Kasper. ​
2023​	0​	0​	Only 4 players have played in the NHL so far. ​

Hindsight is 20/20, but realistically they had 2 good drafts in the past 10 years. That's not a lot for a team that only made the playoffs twice since 2013 and prides itself on the draft and prospect development. No prospects from the last 3 drafts have played a single game yet.

Overall Results: ​	GP in Ottawa/Total GP​
2013​	279/729​
2014​	33/111​
2015​	767/902​
2016​	88/135​
2017​	367/367​
2018​	454/461​
2019​	237/237​
2020​	421/421​
2021​	0​
2022​	0​
2023​	0​

Ottawa 2nd round picks starting in 2013: Andreas Englund (40), Gabriel Gagne (36), Filip Chlapik (48), Jonathan Dahlen (42), Jonny Tychonick (48), Shane Pinto (32), Mads Sogaard (37), Roby Jarventie (33), Tyler Kleven (44), Egor Sokolov (61), Zack Ostapchuk (39), Benjamin Roger (49), Filip Nordberg (64).

Outside of Pinto's rookie season, not one of them has been a factor for this team. It's even worse when you look past the second-round picks with Drake Batherson as the only notable pick made since 2013. Only 1 other Ottawa Senator played at least 100 games during this time as well, can you guess the other one? Ben Harpur

This is Pierres Dorion's body of work since he became an AGM in 2014, and officially the GM in 2016. You can defend him all you want, but this is mediocre. Considering the players that he traded away, and the picks he accumulated during this time, while teams like LA won the cup twice, retooled, and are significantly more competitive than Ottawa, using Ottawa's goalie from last season no less.

 

[Micklebot]

Ottawa RHD at the time of the 2020 draft: Artem Zub, Jacob Bernard-Docker, Nitika Zaitsev, and Josh Brown. Most 2nd round picks don't make it? Now you're being disingenuous

You forgot Thomson, so two recent 1st round prospects, we also didn't exactly have great depth at LD, after Chabot, there was Brannstrom... then Mete?

 

[RickyLafleur]

You forgot Thomson, so two recent 1st round prospects, we also didn't exactly have great depth at LD, after Chabot, there was Brannstrom... then Mete?

Lassi Thompson did not play a game until 2021-2022. I am referring to the state of the team at the 2020 draft. Since then Thompson has played in the AHL, was waived by us, waived by Anaheim, and now plays in the AHL, again. I think most of us would like to forget that he was ever drafted by us since he is a complete defensive liability and shows little offense at the pro level.

 

[Micklebot]

Lassi Thompson did not play a game until 2021-2022. I am referring to the state of the team at the 2020 draft.

You don't draft 2 d rounders based on your current roster, 2nd round D are generally going to be 3+ years out, 3 years prior to drafting Kleven Chabot was the only D still on the roster, and even if you did, JBD had not yet played a game when we drafted Kleven in the summer of 2020, so you're inconsistent in your own claim.

All this to say, while you very well may have preferred Faber, the choice was far from being clear cut or obvious at the time.

 

[RickyLafleur]

You don't draft 2 d rounders based on your current roster, 2nd round D are generally going to be 3+ years out, 3 years prior to drafting Kleven Chabot was the only D still on the roster, and even if you did, JBD had not yet played a game when we drafted Kleven in the summer of 2020, so you're inconsistent in your own claim.

All this to say, while you very well may have preferred Faber, the choice was far from being clear cut or obvious at the time.

I think you completely missed the point here man. I said that we had an overabundance of LHD and nothing outside of Zub on the RHD. We continue to draft and trade for LHD when the clear need has always been on RHD. My points are

1) 2nd round picks do a lot better than what the average fan thinks
2) Sens continue to prioritize drafting and trading for LHD when the need for RHD has always been stronger.
3) Sens drafting history after the 1st round has been abysmal for the past 10 years and that's a complete failure of management.
4) My argument had nothing to do with d men selected in the 2nd round, just players.
5)

Player​	Position​	GP​	G​	A​	PTS​	'+/-​
Thomas Chabot​	LHD​	49​	6​	25​	31​	-15​
Mike Reilly ​	LHD​	40​	0​	19​	19​	-2​
Nikita Zaitsev​	RHD​	55​	4​	13​	17​	-13​
Artem Zub​	RHD​	47​	3​	11​	14​	4​
Erik Brannstrom​	LHD​	30​	2​	11​	13​	3​
Erik Gudbranson ​	RHD​	36​	1​	2​	3​	-13​
Christian Wolanin ​	LHD​	15​	0​	3​	3​	-7​
Victor Mete ​	LHD​	14​	1​	1​	2​	5​
Braydon Coburn ​	LHD​	16​	0​	2​	2​	-3​
Josh Brown​	RHD​	26​	0​	1​	1​	-1​
Olle Alsing​	LHD​	4​	0​	0​	0​	-1​
Jacob Bernard-Docker​	RHD​	5​	0​	0​	0​	2​

This is what we had during the 2020-2021 season after drafting Klevin. We already had a glut of LHD and after Zub there is nothing on the right side. My point is that we keep drafting defensemen, who play on the left side, and who show limited offense in juniors. These guys are often available for cheap in FA. While I hope that Klevin does turn out, I am skeptical that he is anything more than a 4-6 defense first guy while his d partner from college already looks to be an all-situation #1 guy in his rookie year.

We traded Stone for a LHD who is destined to play behind Chabot for the foreseeable future, and traded high assets for another LHD in JC as well. My overall problem is the complete lack of asset management, as well as the inability to identify needs through our non-existent pro-scouting department.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

How much better does this team look with Formenton and Pinto in, Kelly and Chartier out?

We're missing two key young pieces that have nothing to do with hockey

Edit: 55 man games played between Kelly and Chartier. 3 goals scored. Probably safe to assume Formenton and Pinto have 15 between them. Let alone any defensive impact. That +12 goal differential leads to how many more points?

Good point.

 

[Masked]

Lassi Thompson did not play a game until 2021-2022. I am referring to the state of the team at the 2020 draft. Since then Thompson has played in the AHL, was waived by us, waived by Anaheim, and now plays in the AHL, again. I think most of us would like to forget that he was ever drafted by us since he is a complete defensive liability and shows little offense at the pro level.

You're moving the goalposts here since neither JBD nor Lassi played a game for the Senators until after the 2020 draft. And demonstrating your ignorance by not even knowing how to spell Lassi's last name.

And most second round picks do not become regular NHL players. The overwhelming majority of them play a season or two at the most.

 

[Micklebot]

I think you completely missed the point here man. I said that we had an overabundance of LHD and nothing outside of Zub on the RHD. We continue to draft and trade for LHD when the clear need has always been on RHD. My points are

1) 2nd round picks do a lot better than what the average fan thinks
2) Sens continue to prioritize drafting and trading for LHD when the need for RHD has always been stronger.
3) Sens drafting history after the 1st round has been abysmal for the past 10 years and thats a complete failure of management.

We didn't have an over abundance of LD though and we had a pipeline of RD , so your point wasn't very good.

1. I don't see how you've shown that to be true, statistically the success rate has typically been about 1 in 5 become more than a journeyman. Some do become more, of course, but that's still not a great success rate. More likely would be the average fan overated 2nd rounders since they tend to think of the successful ones and ignore the other 80%.

2. We had recently drafted two RD in the 1st round in the two drafts prior to Kleven, so we obviously didn't prioritize drafting LD. We had also drafted Guénette and Tychonick, so 3 of 4 Drafted prior to Kleven were RD two of which with much more valuable picks.

3. This isn't really relevant to whether Kleven or Faber was the clear choice, which is what was really in dispute. That said, to actually evaluate a teams drafting it needs to be compared to all other teams and adjusted for draft position and draft cohort. Thats not to say we drafted well, or poorly, but unless you do the same exercise for 32 teams you don't have any evidence of poor or strong drafting, just a list of some picks

 

[RickyLafleur]

We didn't have an over abundance of LD though and we had a pipeline of RD , so your point wasn't very good.

1. I don't see how you've shown that to be true, statistically the success rate has typically been about 1 in 5 become more than a journeyman. Some do become more, of course, but that's still not a great success rate. More likely would be the average fan overated 2nd rounders since they tend to think of the successful ones and ignore the other 80%.

2. We had recently drafted two RD in the 1st round in the two drafts prior to Kleven, so we obviously didn't prioritize drafting LD. We had also drafted Guénette and Tychonick, so 3 of 4 Drafted prior to Kleven were RD two of which with much more valuable picks.

3. This isn't really relevant to whether Kleven or Faber was the clear choice, which is what was really in dispute. That said, to actually evaluate a teams drafting it needs to be compared to all other teams and adjusted for draft position and draft cohort. Thats not to say we drafted well, or poorly, but unless you do the same exercise for 32 teams you don't have any evidence of poor or strong drafting, just a list of some picks

Since 2013, sens have drafted 13 LHD to 7 RHD. While not a massive sample size, it is telling considering that they draft for more LHD, and trade for them as well. At the time it may have been a coin flip to the sens, but you always draft the players with the higher offensive ceiling. And nobody except The Hockey Guy has time for that. None of the RHD that we acquired since Karlsson was drafted have been any good, outside of Zub.

 

[Xspyrit]

It is what it is. Most teams that are rebuilding have better prospect pools than Ottawa who is comfortably ranked in the bottom 5 right now. Outside of Batherson, our drafting has been abysmal when you don't factor in top 5 picks like Stutzle, Tkachuk & Sanderson. During the most recent rebuild, the Sens wasted so many 2nd round picks on reaches that never panned out like Sokolov and Roger. There was absolutely 0 need for more LHD, and you didn't even need hindsight to know that Faber was the right pick of the two considering they played together in college.

Disagree with this., not just Batherson... Since his draft year in 2017 :

Alex Formenton 47th OA : great pick until the situation happened
Jacob Bernard-Docker 26th OA : not the greatest pick but should be a reliable defensive D-man for years
Angus Crookshank 126th OA : good pick, serviceable 4th liner
Kevin Mandolese 157th OA : it remains to be seen, goalies have a lot of time to "make it"
Shane Pinto 32nd OA : great pick (if he starts playing more than he has lol)
Mads Sogaard 37th OA : potential starter and "goalie of the future"
Mark Kastelic 125th OA : good pick, good 4th liner
Maxence Guenette 187th OA : seems like a very good pick, the guy will play in the NHL
Ridly Greig 28th OA : homerun pick
Roby Jarventie 33rd OA : could be a really good pick
Tyler Kleven 44th OA : could be a really good pick
Egor Sokolov 61st OA : not a bad pick, don't think he'll ever be a NHL regular but an AHL/NHL tweener
Leevi Merilainen 71st OA : good potential, still early for a goalie
Philippe Daoust 158th OA : could be a good pick if he stops being injured all the time
Cole Reinhardt 181st OA : I can see a decent 4th line forward for a few years

Not bad for just 4 drafts (and we're not counting the 3 Top-5 picks)

For the last 3 drafts we don't know yet but as I said in another thread, there's a few guys who could amount into something : Ostapchuk, Pettersson, Halliday and Donovan. Andonovski too

The problem for me was more asset management, burnt so much draft capital for continuous mismanagement

 

[RickyLafleur]

Disagree with this., not just Batherson... Since his draft year in 2017 :

Alex Formenton 47th OA : great pick until the situation happened
Jacob Bernard-Docker 26th OA : not the greatest pick but should be a reliable defensive D-man for years
Angus Crookshank 126th OA : good pick, serviceable 4th liner
Kevin Mandolese 157th OA : it remains to be seen, goalies have a lot of time to "make it"
Shane Pinto 32nd OA : great pick (if he starts playing more than he has lol)
Mads Sogaard 37th OA : potential starter and "goalie of the future"
Mark Kastelic 125th OA : good pick, good 4th liner
Maxence Guenette 187th OA : seems like a very good pick, the guy will play in the NHL
Ridly Greig 28th OA : homerun pick
Roby Jarventie 33rd OA : could be a really good pick
Tyler Kleven 44th OA : could be a really good pick
Egor Sokolov 61st OA : not a bad pick, don't think he'll ever be a NHL regular but an AHL/NHL tweener
Leevi Merilainen 71st OA : good potential, still early for a goalie
Philippe Daoust 158th OA : could be a good pick if he stops being injured all the time
Cole Reinhardt 181st OA : I can see a decent 4th line forward for a few years

Not bad for just 4 drafts (and we're not counting the 3 Top-5 picks)

For the last 3 drafts we don't know yet but as I said in another thread, there's a few guys who could amount into something : Ostapchuk, Pettersson, Halliday and Donovan. Andonovski too

The problem for me was more asset management, burnt so much draft capital for continuous mismanagement

I agree that Pinto and Grieg will likely be impact players for us, but the rest of that list is underwhelming, to say the least.
Unfortunately, Formenton will likely never play in the NHL again as he was really good on the 3rd line.
It is likely, that we won't get a single impact player (top 6 F/top 4 D) from the last 3 drafts. That would be disastrous for a contender, but it's even worse for a team that missed the playoffs each of those 3 years.

 

[Micklebot]

Since 2013, sens have drafted 13 LHD to 7 RHD. While not a massive sample size, it is telling considering that they draft for more LHD, and trade for them as well. At the time it may have been a coin flip to the sens, but you always draft the players with the higher offensive ceiling. And nobody except The Hockey Guy has time for that. None of the RHD that we acquired since Karlsson was drafted have been any good, outside of Zub.

58% of all D in the NHL are LHD, more d are left handed, so you'd expect 12 out of 20 D drafted to be LHD, there's no significant bias there, just plain old odds.

Teams typically aren't willing to trade good RHD for the same reason, Ottawa can't force teams to put RHD on the block, they need to select from what is available.

As for your personal drafting strategy of always drafting the guy with a higher offensive upside, I disagree, you draft the guy you expect to have the greater impact, sometimes that will be the same guy, but drafting higher offensive upside is how you end up with guys like L.Brown or Yamamoto. There's no easy rule of thumb for drafting, you take it all in, and make a bet on it, when you start using one element as the deciding factor you're just handicaping yourself.

 

[Dan Patrick]

So how about Tyler Klevin

 

[RickyLafleur]

58% of all D in the NHL are LHD, more d are left handed, so you'd expect 12 out of 20 D drafted to be LHD, there's no significant bias there, just plain old odds.

Teams typically aren't willing to trade good RHD for the same reason, Ottawa can't force teams to put RHD on the block, they need to select from what is available.

As for your personal drafting strategy of always drafting the guy with a higher offensive upside, I disagree, you draft the guy you expect to have the greater impact, sometimes that will be the same guy, but drafting higher offensive upside is how you end up with guys like L.Brown or Yamamoto. There's no easy rule of thumb for drafting, you take it all in, and make a bet on it, when you start using one element as the deciding factor you're just handicaping yourself.

I agree that most D are left-handed, which is why RHD are more inherently valuable, which is why it's confusing why we don't prioritize it like other teams seem to do. Instead, we prefer to convert players to their off-side which often has mixed results. It makes it even more confusing when we are drafting nearly LHD at 2x the rate of RHD as well since 2013 where is has been by far our biggest need, along with consistent goaltending. You would think that in 10 years, we could get something decent, or at least better than Zub, who we got in FA.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I agree that most D are left-handed, which is why RHD are more inherently valuable, which is why it's confusing why we don't prioritize it like other teams seem to do. Instead, we prefer to convert players to their off-side which often has mixed results. It makes it even more confusing when we are drafting nearly LHD at 2x the rate of RHD as well since 2013 where is has been by far our biggest need, along with consistent goaltending. You would think that in 10 years, we could get something decent, or at least better than Zub, who we got in FA.

The pick was McAvoy in 2016. Chabot in 2015 and McAvoy in 2016 would have been amazing. McAvoy certainly wasn't obscure or a reach.

Easy to pick now.. but one can dream

 

[Micklebot]

So how about Tyler Klevin

Been paired with Guénette recently, I think that's a good pairing,

I agree that most D are left-handed, which is why RHD are more inherently valuable, which is why it's confusing why we don't prioritize it like other teams seem to do. Instead, we prefer to convert players to their off-side which often has mixed results. It makes it even more confusing when we are drafting nearly LHD at 2x the rate of RHD as well since 2013 where is has been by far our biggest need, along with consistent goaltending. You would think that in 10 years, we could get something decent, or at least better than Zub, who we got in FA.

You take the best guy available, if you start prioritizing by hand, you are inherently taking a lesser player. Pick your poison I guess but particularly outside of the first round when success rates are already low, handicaping yourself further seems like a recipe for failure.

Generally, drafting for position is not viewed as a successful strategy, which seems to be what you are proposing, take the lesser player because we are in need at the position, failing to account for the reality that by the time a draft pick us ready, if ever, your roster needs may have changed.