Blue Jays Discussion: Turn out the lights, the season's over.

[Discoverer]

Why Atkins and not Shapiro? My understanding is that Atkins is merely an assistant GM and Shapiro still makes all of the major baseball decisions (I can't say where that info came from, else this post will get deleted).

That's how most front offices are structured these days.

 

[metafour]

Why Atkins and not Shapiro? My understanding is that Atkins is merely an assistant GM and Shapiro still makes all of the major baseball decisions (I can't say where that info came from, else this post will get deleted).

How can you be following the team for this long and come to that understanding?

It's literally the complete opposite. Shapiro empowers his front office to be involved in all aspects of decision making...why exactly do you think he has more underlings promoted to GM and higher positions than any other Team President in baseball (no one would hire these guys to run their own teams if there was an understanding that they have no experience making actual baseball decisions)? If Shapiro is making all the baseball decisions, why is someone like Ben Cherington even still here? What does he even do, because technically he is below Atkins (who under your assumption has no power himself)?

Shapiro has minimal involvement in day to day baseball decisions. Its actually kind of mind-blowing that 4 years later this fanbase STILL doesn't even understand his baseline management style.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Major League Leaderboards » 2019 » Pitchers » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

Fangraphs leaderboard for Free Agent starters.

Curious if Darvish opts out of his player option after his K rate jumped back up in the 2nd half. Him and Strasburg opting to be free agents makes things very interesting. Though I'm not sure how you would incentivize either to come to a homer friendly park. Cole will likely be a Yankee. I do love Odorizzi and think the velo increase and K bump are real, but he'll be overpaid.

Favourite value guys: Smyly, Lyles, Wood

 

[Kurtz]

How can you be following the team for this long and come to that understanding?

It's literally the complete opposite. Shapiro empowers his front office to be involved in all aspects of decision making...why exactly do you think he has more underlings promoted to GM and higher positions than any other Team President in baseball (no one would hire these guys to run their own teams if there was an understanding that they have no experience making actual baseball decisions)? If Shapiro is making all the baseball decisions, why is someone like Ben Cherington even still here? What does he even do, because technically he is below Atkins (who under your assumption has no power himself)?

Shapiro has minimal involvement in day to day baseball decisions. Its actually kind of mind-blowing that 4 years later this fanbase STILL doesn't even understand his baseline management style.

My information comes from someone who works for the Jays. It's a similar arrangement to Bobby Webster and Masai.

 

[metafour]

My information comes from someone who works for the Jays. It's a similar arrangement to Bobby Webster and Masai.

Oh, right...the "my friend works in the mail-room and has inside info on how the entire organization runs" schtick.

Shapiro's management style is well disclosed and the empirical proof of what we ACTUALLY see matches what has been known for years.

 

[Kurtz]

Oh, right...the "my friend works in the mail-room and has inside info on how the entire organization runs" schtick.

Shapiro's management style is well disclosed and the empirical proof of what we ACTUALLY see matches what has been known for years.

Calm down.

I've been on the board for quite some time, and have never been in the habit of making up sources. Actually, I was under the same mistaken impression as you until I met this person and they relayed a few things to me.

You're also using "empirically" incorrectly. The fact that several employees that previously worked under Shapiro became management in other orgs doesn't mean that that's the relationship he has with Atkins.

But there's no profit in me trying to convince you of anything. Just keep in mind that the person working in the Jays mailroom would have far more insight to the relationship than you would.

 

[metafour]

You're also using "empirically" incorrectly. The fact that several employees that previously worked under Shapiro became management in other orgs doesn't mean that that's the relationship he has with Atkins.

Your assumption would require a complete shift in his entire philosophy...for what reason? What, after 5+ years of handing over "GM duties" to pursue more high scale business-driven responsibilities, he all of a sudden wants to go back to calling the shots on which waiver-wire pickups we're making? Really?

Again, why is Ben Cherington still here then? He was the GM of the Boston Red Sox and can easily leave at any moment for a similar position...and yet I am to believe that he is willfully spending years here in which he (by your own claim) really has no decision making power? A guy like Ben Cherington isn't sticking around here so that he can fetch Shapiro's coffee in the morning...and AGAIN: Cherington is technically BELOW Atkins, so if Atkins is really just an "assistant GM" under Emperor Shapiro, then where does that place Cherington? Cherington is in play for PRESIDENT positions at other organizations LOL.

This front office is filled with high-end executives with 10+ years of BASEBALL experience. Guys like that don't sit around and play "yes man" for a job title; they want to stamp their own name on whatever the team is doing, and all of these guys have the clout and resume to go do that elsewhere if they aren't doing it here. Your Masai Ujiri/Bobby Webster example isn't even remotely comparable. Bobby Webster came to the Raptors from the NBA front office wherein he oversaw cap-limit planning: he had virtually no actual basketball operations background so OF COURSE he is only a "GM" in title as he is in fact a "business" guy who hadn't even worked for any other team prior. The Blue Jays in comparison have at minimum three guys (Cherington, Atkins, LaCava) who are qualified to act as GM, and have either held the position or been in STRONG consideration previously. Atkins, by the way, interviewed with more than one other team prior to being hired as GM here. He also has 10+ years working in basically every level of baseball operations, comparing him to Bobby Webster is a joke.

 

[justafan22]

Interesting hypothetical:

If Mookie Betts agreed to a market extension with the Jays, would you deal Vlad for him?

 

[Its not your fault]

Calm down.

I've been on the board for quite some time, and have never been in the habit of making up sources. Actually, I was under the same mistaken impression as you until I met this person and they relayed a few things to me.

You're also using "empirically" incorrectly. The fact that several employees that previously worked under Shapiro became management in other orgs doesn't mean that that's the relationship he has with Atkins.

But there's no profit in me trying to convince you of anything. Just keep in mind that the person working in the Jays mailroom would have far more insight to the relationship than you would.

Walls talk at any company. I agree that it's not far fetched that there would be a trickle down effect and fireable offenses much the same as a medical profession would have.

 

[IceColdBear]

Interesting hypothetical:

If Mookie Betts agreed to a market extension with the Jays, would you deal Vlad for him?

No, Vlad will provide huge surplus value vs the money we spend on him until he hits free agency. Mookie, with a market value extension, will not.

We could have Vlad + a premiere free agent with the money spent on Mookie vs only Mookie.

 

[Anthrax442]

Interesting hypothetical:

If Mookie Betts agreed to a market extension with the Jays, would you deal Vlad for him?

NO.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Interesting hypothetical:

If Mookie Betts agreed to a market extension with the Jays, would you deal Vlad for him?

Hard pass.

 

[justafan22]

Alright.

Would you do Bichette for that same hypothetical (obviously Biggio is a given)

 

[Kurtz]

Your assumption would require a complete shift in his entire philosophy...for what reason? What, after 5+ years of handing over "GM duties" to pursue more high scale business-driven responsibilities, he all of a sudden wants to go back to calling the shots on which waiver-wire pickups we're making? Really?

Again, why is Ben Cherington still here then? He was the GM of the Boston Red Sox and can easily leave at any moment for a similar position...and yet I am to believe that he is willfully spending years here in which he (by your own claim) really has no decision making power? A guy like Ben Cherington isn't sticking around here so that he can fetch Shapiro's coffee in the morning...and AGAIN: Cherington is technically BELOW Atkins, so if Atkins is really just an "assistant GM" under Emperor Shapiro, then where does that place Cherington? Cherington is in play for PRESIDENT positions at other organizations LOL.

This front office is filled with high-end executives with 10+ years of BASEBALL experience. Guys like that don't sit around and play "yes man" for a job title; they want to stamp their own name on whatever the team is doing, and all of these guys have the clout and resume to go do that elsewhere if they aren't doing it here. Your Masai Ujiri/Bobby Webster example isn't even remotely comparable. Bobby Webster came to the Raptors from the NBA front office wherein he oversaw cap-limit planning: he had virtually no actual basketball operations background so OF COURSE he is only a "GM" in title as he is in fact a "business" guy who hadn't even worked for any other team prior. The Blue Jays in comparison have at minimum three guys (Cherington, Atkins, LaCava) who are qualified to act as GM, and have either held the position or been in STRONG consideration previously. Atkins, by the way, interviewed with more than one other team prior to being hired as GM here. He also has 10+ years working in basically every level of baseball operations, comparing him to Bobby Webster is a joke.

I was given no insight on Cherrington. I don't know why u bring him up continuously. He's the vice-president of baseball operations here, not the GM.

I was told that all the important baseball decisions are still made by Shapiro. I would not be surprised if Atkins makes the smaller moves like waver wire acquisitions .

U seem to be quite reliant on experience as an indication of how much responsibility a person carries - in which case I'll remind u that Atkins is a first-time GM, much like Webster, so not sure why ur dismissing Bobby while promoting Atkins.

U seem to dismiss Webster's credentials for some reason, but he joined the NBA front office 13 years ago, and in his role advised NBA personnel on the nuances of the salary cap, cba and luxury tax planning - building valuable connections in the process. These seem like rather valuable skills to have in an NBA gm, right?

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Alright.

Would you do Bichette for that same hypothetical (obviously Biggio is a given)

Why...

 

[hockeywiz542]

'We're on plan': Shapiro confident Jays on right track, understands fans' frustrations - Video - TSN.ca

Blue Jays president and CEO Mark Shapiro joins Scott Mitchell to discuss the positives from a tough 95-loss season, how confident he is that the plan is on track with the club, how comfortable he feels about his job security, how active he expects the team to be in the off-season, what his expectations are for next year, and more.

 

[justafan22]

'We're on plan': Shapiro confident Jays on right track, understands fans' frustrations - Video - TSN.ca

Blue Jays president and CEO Mark Shapiro joins Scott Mitchell to discuss the positives from a tough 95-loss season, how confident he is that the plan is on track with the club, how comfortable he feels about his job security, how active he expects the team to be in the off-season, what his expectations are for next year, and more.

just get pitching ffs

 

[Anthrax442]

 

[hockeywiz542]

Atkins 'very excited' about transition to new core, vows to be active in off-season - Video - TSN.ca

Blue Jays GM Ross Atkins explains how excited he is by the transition to a new core of players, but understands how tough the season was for fans and vows that the team will be better in 2020. Atkins also discusses how eager he is to add to the team, particularly pitching, this off-season, when he expects the Jays to be a contender, and much more.

Atkins' top off-season priority: 'We just want to make sure that we improve our pitching' - Video - TSN.ca

Blue Jays GM Ross Atkins joins Scott Mitchell to discuss the positives and challenges from a 95-loss season, how he plans to go about adding pitching this off-season to improve the club, how he feels about his job security, what he thought about the rookie seasons of the team's four new core players, and what his realistic expectations are for 2020.

Toronto Blue Jays GM Ross Atkins spoke about the Blue Jays' young core and expectations for fans heading into the off season and 2020.

 

[Puckstuff]

Interesting hypothetical:

If Mookie Betts agreed to a market extension with the Jays, would you deal Vlad for him?

that’s like trading Elias Peterson or maybe even Austin Matthews for 1 year of patrick Kane but then you have to sign him to an 18 million per year contract over 8 years. (Which you can’t even do). So definitely not

 

[Anthrax442]

 

[sparxx87]

Atkins on Tim & Sid says Jays fans perception of their players doesn’t align with the industry.

I’m far from an expert on this sport, but I question the industry if they think the Astros-Jays trade was a good one. Sanchez and Biagini weren’t special, but Derek Fisher can’t even play. Can’t hit, can’t field, can’t run. Not even sure why he’s called a baseball player?

 

[Discoverer]

Atkins on Tim & Sid says Jays fans perception of their players doesn’t align with the industry.

I’m far from an expert on this sport, but I question the industry if they think the Astros-Jays trade was a good one. Sanchez and Biagini weren’t special, but Derek Fisher can’t even play. Can’t hit, can’t field, can’t run. Not even sure why he’s called a baseball player?

Fun fact: Joe Biagini was sub-replacement and will be left off the playoff roster. Aaron Sanchez was sub-replacement and likely won't play until 2021.

To you, these are the guys who CAN play baseball? They were both WORSE than Fisher was after the trade.

 

[sparxx87]

Fun fact: Joe Biagini was sub-replacement and will be left off the playoff roster. Aaron Sanchez was sub-replacement and likely won't play until 2021.

To you, these are the guys who CAN play baseball? They were both WORSE than Fisher was after the trade.

Sanchez has been hurt. He’s proven that when healthy he’s a major leaguer.

Derek Fisher isn’t.

 

[Discoverer]

Sanchez has been hurt. He’s proven that when healthy he’s a major leaguer.

Derek Fisher isn’t.

5.29 ERA, 5.12 FIP, 5.10 xFIP over 272 IP the last three years. Three. Years. He's been both injured and terrible. For three years.

The last time he was good, so was Chris Davis. Would you also argue that he's "proven"?