Player Discussion Troy Terry

[KyleJRM]

You can't cloak a bad take in a pretense of neutrality. I know it's very internet-y to disdain emotion and pretend that doing so helps you avoid subjectivity, but all you're doing is showing your ass as someone who can't see the obvious for fear of being perceived a certain way. It's pitiful.

It's very internet-y to respond to "here's what I saw" with "SO YOU'RE SAYING TERRY DESERVED IT."

I'm not the one getting aggro and weird about this. You are.

 

[McDonald19]

View attachment 526513

That's the follow through from an attemtped punch to the face.

I'm not saying Beagle was right. I am saying Ducks fans trying to frame it as Terry getting beaten up for skill play are being a little homeristic.

Follow through from a shove and/or grappling. I’m not sure why you are pushing a false narrative that Terry came in throwing punches. Are you Mr. Beagle?

 

[McDonald19]

I dont think terry tried to elbow him but he def threw the first haymaker with his glove hand. Fwiw I think he missed?

Haymaker? Lol, why are you trolling in a Ducks thread?

 

[McDonald19]

I understand that some people think with their emotions, and that can't be helped, but you can stop accusing me of saying things I didn't

Think you’re being a bit hypocritical. This seems like an emotional subject for you and you are pushing a false punch narrative.

 

[KyleJRM]

Think you’re being a bit hypocritical. This seems like an emotional subject for you and you are pushing a false punch narrative.

"Emotional" has nothing to do with the take. I'm fine with people seeing it differently. There's a difference between "I don't think you're correct" and "OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE SAYING TERRY DESERVED IT."

If you don't think what he did was throwing a punch, cool. Agree to disagree.

 

[dracom]

"Emotional" has nothing to do with the take. I'm fine with people seeing it differently. There's a difference between "I don't think you're correct" and "OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE SAYING TERRY DESERVED IT."

If you don't think what he did was throwing a punch, cool. Agree to disagree.

this isn't a thing you can agree or disagree on though. he never throws a punch, there's literal video evidence to support this.

 

[KyleJRM]

this isn't a thing you can agree or disagree on though. he never throws a punch, there's literal video evidence to support this.

Isn't it weird to you that so many people who aren't Ducks fans see the same video and think there was a punch? Is it an anti-Ducks conspiracy?

I'm looking right at the video, I see the punch.

 

[dracom]

Isn't it weird to you that so many people who aren't Ducks fans see the same video and think there was a punch? Is it an anti-Ducks conspiracy?

I'm looking right at the video, I see the punch.

is it weird that there are so many non Ducks fans who say there isn't?

the view from the behind the net clearly shows he never throws a punch.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Isn't it weird to you that so many people who aren't Ducks fans see the same video and think there was a punch? Is it an anti-Ducks conspiracy?

I'm looking right at the video, I see the punch.

You see what you want to see. And it doesn't have to be some conspiracy, just a lot of people desperate to defend anything relating to fighting in hockey.

 

[KyleJRM]

is it weird that there are so many non Ducks fans who say there isn't?

the view from the behind the net clearly shows he never throws a punch.

Im happy to agree to disagree.

 

[Ducks DVM]

If only the technology existed to parse, highlight, time stamp, and freeze frame video in order to make objective points. Perhaps someday…

 

[DavidBL]

Unless Terry is trying to be Ryu from street fighter I just don't see a punch there.

 

[nbducksfan19]

I understand that some people think with their emotions, and that can't be helped, but you can stop accusing me of saying things I didn't say.

There's this oversimplistic view of the world that says that as long as you're on the right side (Beagle was wrong), you can say whatever you want. If you say anything that *isn't* part of that setup, you must be on the other side.

Just because I can see with my eyes that Terry came in hot and threw a punch doesn't mean that I think Beagle was right. This is that nuance thing that, again, I understand, many people are too emotional to understand.

Beagle overreacted to an alleged "dig" at the puck and threw a violent crosscheck into Zegras' back, Terry came in hot and threw a punch, Beagle used that as an excuse to overreact again and punch Terry repeatedly with an ungloved fist.

Beagle did not attack Troy Terry for being too skilled while Terry was innocently trying to tie someone up in a regular season scrum.

I can accurately describe what happened without saying "terry deserved it."

It's weird, I agree with everything you said, but you are wrong. This is all true, if Terry threw a punch. I don't know if you haven't watched the replay 100 times from multiple angles (like i have), your eyes are deceiving you, or you don't know what a punch is, but Terry clearly did not throw one. Alas, none of that really matters, because whether Terry did throw a gloves-on punch or not, doesn't mean Beagle can unglove and beat someone to a pulp who is very obviously not a combatant. can

 

[Hockey Duckie]

The video clearly shows the punch at 38 seconds. That was not a "tie up" move. That was a "hit beagle in the face" move.

Before Terry got there, Fowler came into the crease. Beagle got a shot on Fowler's head and passed/pushed him off to someone else. Terry came in and Beagle again throwing the first punch. From behind the net POV, Terry isn't even swinging. It looks like he's bracing to be hit by Beagle b/c Beagles already been throwing the first hit to the head. See Fowler.

I'm not seeing it what you're seeing. Terry doesn't have a history of throwing down, but Beagle just threw the first punch to Fowler's head before Terry got to Beagle. Beagle didn't want Fowler as Beagle pushed him off to another Yote, but he didn't mind beating up on Terry.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I knew I missed Des more than Lindholm and Manson (I get Manson might have been similar support here). I do still feel that Verbeek has a plan in place and we have a chance at being a better overall team in the coming couple of years. I also feel that he probably did about as good as he could at the trade deadline, by having Murray handcuff him a bit by not acting while he was still in charge.

There's no handcuffing here by Murray. That's a false narrative. Verbeek already knew what he was going to do the moment he became GM. Verbeek never contacted Manson's agent. Verbeek wanted to give only a 4-year extension to 28-year old Lindholm. If anything, it made Verbeek's job easier to remake the team in his image by having several UFA's rather than force Verbeek to have long contracts that don't fit Verbeek's timeline.

 

[Ducks DVM]

There's no handcuffing here by Murray. That's a false narrative. Verbeek already knew what he was going to do the moment he became GM. Verbeek never contacted Manson's agent. Verbeek wanted to give only a 4-year extension to 28-year old Lindholm. If anything, it made Verbeek's job easier to remake the team in his image by having several UFA's rather than force Verbeek to have long contracts that don't fit Verbeek's timeline.

The issue that I have is that he didn’t dismantle the team immediately. He needed to start the free fall immediately in order to make the record as bad as possible. There’s essentially no difference between the draft position we are going to get (barring a lottery miracle) and the position that a team that just misses the playoffs gets.

 

[ohcomeonref]

The issue that I have is that he didn’t dismantle the team immediately. He needed to start the free fall immediately in order to make the record as bad as possible. There’s essentially no difference between the draft position we are going to get (barring a lottery miracle) and the position that a team that just misses the playoffs gets.

Bingo. Fanbase/players are going to suffer for a good portion of this season and likely get a trash draft pick for it.

 

[bsu]

The issue that I have is that he didn’t dismantle the team immediately. He needed to start the free fall immediately in order to make the record as bad as possible. There’s essentially no difference between the draft position we are going to get (barring a lottery miracle) and the position that a team that just misses the playoffs gets.

Yep typical ducks outcome.

 

[duckpuck]

I'm sorry, but have you played hockey? and that's a honest question. I've played long enough from childhood to adulthood where I never go into the crease when the goalie has it. The moment you start poking the puck and prodding, that's when trouble arises.

Beagle wasn't 'upset' about the Michigan to me. If he had an issue with it, he would've gone after Zegras a la Dale Hunter.

This is a great explanation for why Zegras got cross checked. It is not an explanation or excuse for Beagle going Stu Grimson on Troy Terry.

Isn't it weird to you that so many people who aren't Ducks fans see the same video and think there was a punch? Is it an anti-Ducks conspiracy?

I'm looking right at the video, I see the punch.

I see a guy coming in with his hands (and stick) up high - just like a lot of players do when entering a scrum. Is it a punch? Maybe a gloved gloved one - maybe just coming in sticks high (which I believe players are told to do).

But you know what? This is a complete red herring. Even if Terry threw the first GLOVED punch when entering a scrum, that happens all the time - rabbit punches, facewashes, etc. I could post 1000 you tube videos showing that. And in virtually none of those videos does a a much bigger player start wailing on a skilled guy coming in hard (as Terry did) to protect his teammate.

Everyone is forgetting that Nick Ritchie (when on the ducks) got suspended for two games for fighting (and injuring) a non-fighter. Watch the link below - Rozsival delivers a pretty solid cross check on Perry (seems pretty similar), Ritchie goes to engage and drops him.



Basically, Ritchie was suspended because Rozsival was not a willing combatant. Here is the description from the NHL player safety:

""Ritchie approaches Rozsival with a crosscheck, then drops his gloves and delivers a hard punch to the face of Rozsival, dropping him to the ice and causing an injury. While Rozsival did cross-check Perry, Ritchie's response is in no way permitted or excusable. He acknowledged he was seeking retribution for the crosscheck, which was already being penalized by the on-ice officials. Rozsival has his hands at his sides, and gives no indication that he is a willing combatant in a potential fight or is in any way prepared for the altercation to escalate. With no reason to suspect Rozsival is ready or willing to fight, Ritchie drops his gloves and delivers a forceful bare-knuckle punch to Rozsival's face at a time when Rozsival is unable to defend himself.""

Ducks forward Nick Ritchie suspended for hit on Blackhawks' Michal Rozsival

Anaheim Ducks forward Nick Ritchie was suspended two games for roughing Blackhawks defenseman Michal Rozsival in the Ducks’ 4-0 victory on Thursday night. Ritchie punched Rozsival after Rozsival cross-checked Ducks forward Corey Perry early in the third period. In its video the NHL’s Department...

www.nbcsports.com

The situations are actually pretty similar. Maybe Terry did a bit more - but Rozsival raised his hands to engage and arguably should have expected a challenge after delivering the cross check. Hard to understand why Ritchie was suspended and Beagle is not. Both players fought with an unwilling combatant.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

The issue that I have is that he didn’t dismantle the team immediately. He needed to start the free fall immediately in order to make the record as bad as possible. There’s essentially no difference between the draft position we are going to get (barring a lottery miracle) and the position that a team that just misses the playoffs gets.

Maybe Verbeek doesn't trust his scouts to make the right choices and improving your draft position helps. In that way of thinking, Verbeek doesn't have the imagination that Murray has. We found a lot of success not in the top-10 often under Murray.

The immediate free fall is the scarier part b/c we had nothing close to direct replacements for the players we shipped out. That implies a longer rebuild time, which makes it even more devious from the onset.

I dunno if Verbeek purposely wanted an immediate free fall b/c he offer Lindholm a putrid 4-year extension. Maybe Verbeek thought Lindholm would take the benevolent gift Verbeek was offering. Also, don't forget that Verbeek was hoping to have Dadanov here, which would have been a direct replacement for Rakell. But that fell through. Should that be a negative mark on his short GM career already?

IMO, the tanking started the moment Verbeek took over as GM. He knew Manson was going to be out for quite a long time during the Olympic break period, but did nothing to help the NHL club on the blue line. The Ducks' GM position was open since early November. That should have given every GM interviewee a head start on what they could do to help the Ducks this year and beyond... save Verbeek. He wanted a reset from the get go, which also means he wanted to tank from the get go. Verbeek has an age cutoff.

Look at Terry's situation. Terry isn't going to be coming back within a week, so why hasn't he been put on IR already? Are we going to wait to put him on IR or not at all so we can't call up any other talent like a Elvenes or Perreault to take up Terry's spot? The dismantling of the team and the immediate free fall are one and the same to me b/c Verbeek planned this all along.

But I do understand the tanking. It isn't about the first round pick alone. It's about our first three round picks. I remember how we would complain the Kings were snapping up players we thought we'd be drafting ahead of us in a previous draft. Last year, we got a lot of great picks because we were atop in every round. While McTavish was a surprise pick to many, the ensuing two picks were probably just as important as we drafted Zellweger and Pastujov. (Murray was playing chess with Pastujov as he knew which CHL team own Pasta's draft rights and that CHL team had skating guru Barb Underhill on its team.)

This year, I think we can sneak up a little higher into the top-10 to snag either a RHD Jiricek or C Lambert, both players having projected to be falling in the draft a bit - jiricek due to his knee surgery and Lambert due to his lack of production against a men's league. (I do have a conspiracy theory that now Murray isn't the GM that the Ducks will actually move up in the lottery for the first time while in lottery contention.) We also get a higher pick in the second and third rounds.

Now... we have several picks in the next two drafts.

2022: Rd1 = 2 picks, Rd 2 = 2 picks​

2023: Rd 1 = 1 pick, Rd 2 = 3 picks, Rd 3 = 2 picks​

We're tanking like there's a race to the bottom, no real top-end players in return right now, and a plethora of draft picks. Why? I thought the next step were to be contenders? It isn't. It's to reset the team in Verbeek's image. And here's the receipt:

"We studied successful teams, then we found our own way to do it," Verbeek said. "In Tampa, we were fortunate because we had [Steven] Stamkos and [Victor] Hedman, two major pieces we could build around. That was a big advantage. We wanted draft picks. We wanted to throw as many darts at the board as we could. Then we need to make sure players develop. Those go hand-in-hand if you're going to build a team that can win in the cap era."​

Here is where I got befuddled b/c in Tampa, Yzerman insulated his youths and waited for younger prospects to develop before dispensing his aging veterans. People also keep thinking Yzerman won the Stanley Cup with the Bolts. He didn't. The next GM did b/c Yzerman kept finishing as a bridesmaid.

Verbeek is doing something else and doing it with purpose. Under Murray, this was an "official rebuild" season. Under Verbeek, he made sure it's an "unofficial reset" at an unimaginable speed too! We've seen this scenario play out before.

Except it's Terry on the receiving end, unfortunately.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

It's very internet-y to respond to "here's what I saw" with "SO YOU'RE SAYING TERRY DESERVED IT."

I'm not the one getting aggro and weird about this. You are.

If Terry just wanted to tie up an opposing player in standard scrum mode, he would have grabbed the nearest guy and not gone flying in at the guy who had just done something wrong

Wild how anyone can just disclaim the obvious meaning of their words by adding "I'm just saying." Language is amazing.

Anyway your Terry takes are galactically bad. I imagine you'll let go of this one in about two years.

 

[KyleJRM]

Wild how anyone can just disclaim the obvious meaning of their words by adding "I'm just saying." Language is amazing.

Anyway your Terry takes are galactically bad. I imagine you'll let go of this one in about two years.

Are you imagining you saw the word "deserved" somewhere in what you quoted?

Terry was not merely trying to tie up someone in generic scrum procedure. He also did not deserve to be punched in the face multiple times with a bare fist.

Those two statements are not in anyway mutually exclusive.

Hockey has a long standing norm that you don't use bare fists on each other without mutual agreement. You give a guy a chance to drop his gloves. Beagle broke that norm. And if the league isn't going to do something about it, hopefully the players do.

 

[KyleJRM]

As for "my Terry takes" I seem to recall the argument was usually me saying he couldn't just rely on fancy passes and he needed to start putting the puck into the net to be a useful player, versus other people saying he just needed to keep doing what he was doing and get linemates to finish the passes.

He didn't get better linemates, he did start putting the puck in the net, and now he's a useful player. I was 100% correct.

 

[anezthes]

If you look real close, you can clearly see Terry launch into a bicycle kick.

 

[FiveHoleTickler]

This is a great explanation for why Zegras got cross checked. It is not an explanation or excuse for Beagle going Stu Grimson on Troy Terry.



I see a guy coming in with his hands (and stick) up high - just like a lot of players do when entering a scrum. Is it a punch? Maybe a gloved gloved one - maybe just coming in sticks high (which I believe players are told to do).

But you know what? This is a complete red herring. Even if Terry threw the first GLOVED punch when entering a scrum, that happens all the time - rabbit punches, facewashes, etc. I could post 1000 you tube videos showing that. And in virtually none of those videos does a a much bigger player start wailing on a skilled guy coming in hard (as Terry did) to protect his teammate.

Everyone is forgetting that Nick Ritchie (when on the ducks) got suspended for two games for fighting (and injuring) a non-fighter. Watch the link below - Rozsival delivers a pretty solid cross check on Perry (seems pretty similar), Ritchie goes to engage and drops him.



Basically, Ritchie was suspended because Rozsival was not a willing combatant. Here is the description from the NHL player safety:

""Ritchie approaches Rozsival with a crosscheck, then drops his gloves and delivers a hard punch to the face of Rozsival, dropping him to the ice and causing an injury. While Rozsival did cross-check Perry, Ritchie's response is in no way permitted or excusable. He acknowledged he was seeking retribution for the crosscheck, which was already being penalized by the on-ice officials. Rozsival has his hands at his sides, and gives no indication that he is a willing combatant in a potential fight or is in any way prepared for the altercation to escalate. With no reason to suspect Rozsival is ready or willing to fight, Ritchie drops his gloves and delivers a forceful bare-knuckle punch to Rozsival's face at a time when Rozsival is unable to defend himself.""

Ducks forward Nick Ritchie suspended for hit on Blackhawks' Michal Rozsival

Anaheim Ducks forward Nick Ritchie was suspended two games for roughing Blackhawks defenseman Michal Rozsival in the Ducks’ 4-0 victory on Thursday night. Ritchie punched Rozsival after Rozsival cross-checked Ducks forward Corey Perry early in the third period. In its video the NHL’s Department...

www.nbcsports.com

The situations are actually pretty similar. Maybe Terry did a bit more - but Rozsival raised his hands to engage and arguably should have expected a challenge after delivering the cross check. Hard to understand why Ritchie was suspended and Beagle is not. Both players fought with an unwilling combatant.

It's funny, my initial impression is that's a pretty good comparison. But the main difference that sticks out to me is possibly the reason why Ritchie was suspended and Beagle wasn't:

Rozival skated away from the situation and his body language suggests he's completely unprepared for contact. He sort of shrugs and I'm not sure if that's directed at the ref as to say "what did I do?" or if that's a sort of taunt at Ritchie to goat him into taking a (yet another) bad penalty.

By contrast, Terry engages Beagle. So the optics are quite different. I'm just guessing that's probably why these two situations were treated so differently.

I want to make it clear that I'm in no way saying Terry threw a punch, deserved it, or anything like that. Just trying to rationalize as to why these two situations were treated differently. I may be completely wrong.

And for the record, I absolutely think Beagle should've been suspended. What he did is worse than what Ritchie did in my opinion.