Proposal: Trouba Mega-Thread Part III

[StayAtHomeAv]

But its been said multiple times in this thread that Trouba is "regressing" while he carried around his boat anchor, Stuart. Never mind that it's not even remotely true, Trouba was responsible for some babysitting of his own, and still produced some very good numbers, although not on the score sheet which seems to be the only place anyone looks.

I don't care what has been said about Trouba. I didn't say anything about him, other than that I'm not saying anything about the trade proposal. What someone else thinks of Trouba has nothing to do with what I said. Claiming Bigras was arguably one of the worst Dmen in the league because of some fancy stats is just plain msguided. It's a perfect example of someone looking at stats and forming an opinion based on that. But these stats are not always accurate in judging how good a player is.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Strawman and deflections seem to be the order of the day.

They've had 4 drafts. After the 1st round they draft poorly IMO (minus Bigras #32).

It's still too early to even judge their first class past the 1st round. These guys just now entered their 2nd pro season. Butcher is still in college. And most are progressing nicely.

 

[Avs44]

Strawman and deflections seem to be the order of the day.

They've had 4 drafts. After the 1st round they draft poorly IMO (minus Bigras #32).

You clearly don't understand the definition of a strawman. You placed "hiring his buddy" (Roy) purely on Sakic, I refuted that. Pretty straightforward to anyone looking to actually have an honest discussion. Just because you don't agree with, or don't understand the nuance behind the hirings, does not mean it's a deflection - maybe you should consider it might actually be true, and that I am far better positioned to talk about the Avs than you are. Did you know that the Avs tried to hire Roy back in 2009 already, well before Sakic? Probably not. That's a rather importance piece of information that proves the interest in Roy was more than just from Sakic...and in 2013 the team essentially underwent a makeover to make it more friendly to fans, and that certainly started with bringing in two icons of the franchise - together.


They've had four drafts. Of the non-first round picks, Bigras is from the first draft and he looks good. Where you error is that you seem to assume that the rest of the non-first found picks should have at least turned out a few NHLers, or that they have to be flashy names. From the second round of the 2014 draft, for example, how many are full time NHlers? None. The Avs are a smaller market, their prospects don't get a lot of attention. That doesn't mean they don't have a few good prospects like Greer and Meloche that could absolutely turn out to be really good players for the club in the future, or that there are several others that Sakic has drafted that don't have decent shots at turning out to be pretty good lower end talent for the team. If we wipe out all of Chevy's first round draft picks as you just did to evaluate the Avs - Laine, Connor, Stanley, Roslovic, Trouba, Scheifele - then it's not exactly as if he's drafted a host of stars. Just some good talent such as Lowry, or more considerably, Petan, which looks pretty similiar to the Avs.

 

[lomiller1]

But its been said multiple times in this thread that Trouba is "regressing" while he carried around his boat anchor, Stuart. Never mind that it's not even remotely true, Trouba was responsible for some babysitting of his own, and still produced some very good numbers, although not on the score sheet which seems to be the only place anyone looks.

One of the D-men Bigras was “babysitting†was Zach Redmond, someone I’d take over Stuart or Bigras. It didn’t take long to confirm Redmond was a lot better when he wasn’t stuck with Bigras.

 

[strictlyrandy]

Iginla and Stuart. Beauchemin still has 2 years left 4.5 aav and he's 36. Not the greatest contract.

How about the drafting under Sakic/Roy?

Hiring your buddy was a terrible.idea. Sakic is just lucky Roy decided to leave, because I don't think Sakic had the balls to fire him. Still a poor hire.

Nobody debates that the last 2 years Roy was a coach he was any good. So...2 years of a bad coach..Not the biggest strike to Sakic.

As far as the bad contracts, they haven't impeded Sakic from getting the core locked up and there are very few of them. They even all end soon.

One could ever argue that the bad contracts were all part of Roy's plan to get veteran presence to help the Avs.

As far as drafting goes, you clearly don't follow the Avs or how they've drafted. Since Sakic has taken over his drafting (even this most recent draftl have been solid cupboard stocking moves.

Avs fans have zero reason to gripe about how Sakic has been running the team. He is not a bad GM.


To the poster that said Chevy was clearly superior to Sakic as a GM...that's nice? I never suggested it. I merely said Sakic isn't a bad GM and there's no evidence to suggest it. Even the bad contracts (big whoop, there's a whopping 3 at most) haven't hurt the team.

So..Again, what makes Sakic a bad GM? What evidence do you have that in 3 years Sakic is a bad GM? Even his mistakes he's learned from and improved.

Sakic isn't the problem, it was the coach. If that's Sakic's biggest blemish, problem is solved.

 

[Drij]

Not sure why people are talking about sakic

 

[Hunter368]

Not sure why people are talking about sakic

Agreed. Thread is about Trouba, not some other teams GM.

 

[Paradise*]

Not sure why people are talking about sakic

Threads got merged.

 

[Ola]

It's hard to know the value of a player that has to be traded. More often than not they tend to go for packages.

O'Reilly returned Zadorov, Grigorenko, 2nd round pick and Compher.
Turris returned Rundblad, 2nd round pick
Saad returned Dano, Anisimov (minor pieces added on both sides)

Cheveldayoff tried to keep the appearances up in September here by claiming as if Trouba was part of the long term plans. That triggered the Trouba camp and they released the statement that they had asked for a trade back in May. That means every GM know Cheveldayoff has limited leverage. He'll probably get a decent trade return but it won't be the one for one he might have fishing for since May.

I think he will. Chevy still have leverage.

But I wouldn't put the house on it, Bos didn't get a ton for Hamilton. But...

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

One of the D-men Bigras was “babysitting†was Zach Redmond, someone I’d take over Stuart or Bigras. It didn’t take long to confirm Redmond was a lot better when he wasn’t stuck with Bigras.

Lol. I was going to even bring up Redmond as somewho I bet you would think is a good player because of his fancy stats.

 

[sully1410]

Lol. I was going to even bring up Redmond as somewho I bet you would think is a good player because of his fancy stats.

Man I miss that guy. Pretty good bottom pair player.

 

[avsfan09]

Man I miss that guy. Pretty good bottom pair player.

He's not an NHL player let alone a good one. He has alot of tools but never had the ability to think the game at all.

 

[lomiller1]

He's not an NHL player let alone a good one. He has alot of tools but never had the ability to think the game at all.

Wrong. Any such issues are pretty clearly coaching related, he's always been a solid 2 way puck moving D.

 

[Avs44]

Not worth it.

 

[Hunter368]

Not worth it.

Dude, this is the 3rd Mega Trouba thread for us Jets fans.....80% of the offers are garbage or fill zero need....imagine how we feel.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Wrong. Any such issues are pretty clearly coaching related, he's always been a solid 2 way puck moving D.

In St. John's. I liked him when he first got here, and even defended him when he was blamed for everything throughout his tenure. And I would agree Roy was a problem for him (didn't use him on the PP enough). But, no, Roy was not the issue.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Wrong. Any such issues are pretty clearly coaching related, he's always been a solid 2 way puck moving D.

And Nate Guenin has always been a solid 3rd pairing shutdown defenseman

 

[lomiller1]

And Nate Guenin has always been a solid 3rd pairing shutdown defenseman

Not really. Still better than what Bigras showed last year though. Neither is as good as Redmond and he's only a bottom pairing guy. So yeah no interest in Bigras, you keep him and by all means play him as much as possible!

 

[Avs44]

Dude, this is the 3rd Mega Trouba thread for us Jets fans.....80% of the offers are garbage or fill zero need....imagine how we feel.

Welcome to three years of O'Reilly proposals, spanning signing in the KHL, an offer-sheet, going to the brink of arbitration, and eventual trade.

 

[KingBogo]

Welcome to three years of O'Reilly proposals, spanning signing in the KHL, an offer-sheet, going to the brink of arbitration, and eventual trade.

I can sympathize...didn't quite fully appreciate the journey Avs fans would have had to travel on that one.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Not really. Still better than what Bigras showed last year though. Neither is as good as Redmond and he's only a bottom pairing guy. So yeah no interest in Bigras, you keep him and by all means play him as much as possible!

Still better than Bigras? Nate Guenin? I really hope you are just trolling at his point. If you truly believe that......

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Welcome to three years of O'Reilly proposals, spanning signing in the KHL, an offer-sheet, going to the brink of arbitration, and eventual trade.

Let's not forget the years of Stastny threads.

Avs have been cursed (blessed?) with a long history of desirable centers leading to endless speculation and endless trade discussions.

I'm just surprised we haven't seen Duchene for JvR + 2nd at this point.

Jets fans should be flattered Trouba is worth this much speculation, but understand the majority of it will never feel satisfying. The most they can hope is the eventual trade (if it happens) is enough value to offset the loss.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

So your argument is that more trade request are not honoured than honoured? That's not a provable thing since like you said most trade requests don't become public, but that does not sound right at all, there are hundreds of players in the NHL, dozens of trades each year, did Subban ask for a trade out of Montreal? we don't know because he was traded before that question even came up, and now he's a pred and noone cares anymore.

And to answer your question, yes he should have accepted what you would call a "SUB par" offer for trouba, because this is not NHL 17, you can't just move trouba for rielly and call it a day

MY argument isn't that more trade requests are not honoured than honoured, it's that you have no idea if that statement is true or not.

To your second point, I'm sure glad you're not my GM. I would never accept a sub par offer because one of my players decided he doesn't want to play here anymore.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Not really. Still better than what Bigras showed last year though. Neither is as good as Redmond and he's only a bottom pairing guy. So yeah no interest in Bigras, you keep him and by all means play him as much as possible!

I'm assuming you didn't watch much of Bigras then? He was really not that bad for being his first call up to the NHL and having to babysit Gelinas and Guenin. Stats don't always tell the full story, the best test is still the eye test.

 

[Halla]

So the Leafs shed 4 mill and bring back what....11ish?(counting retention)
Yeah....no.

Lupul,Horton,Robidas =15.5 mil.

Stoner sent down is another 950k. Sign Trouba for the same deal as Rielly 5mil per. easily done.

Michalek,Laich,Greening,Polak all move along after this year.
thats another 13.5 mil in space with only zaitsev as a notable signing.

easily done