Player Discussion Trevor Zegras : Part III

[lindholmie]

Zegras #10 on this chart for defense. Idk how to post twitter links

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

Zegras #10 on this chart for defense. Idk how to post twitter links

Is that what we're paying him for?

 

[ScarTroy]

Is that what we're paying him for?

It’s what he was asked of himself to become better at that. If he could put up 60-70 points and stay near the top of this list consistently I think the team would be thrilled.

 

[DavidBL]

Carlsson is a large man who projects to be an elite defensive forward and can eventually use his leverage to be excellent at faceoffs.

If carlsson were small and had a limited defensive ceiling, I'd be fine moving him to wing

But he's not right now? Maybe he should be asked to grow into that just like Z and McTavish were when they first started. Seems like a questionable double standard when doesn't actually have all his tools yet.

So because Z is smaller and apparently has a low D ceiling, which I'm not sure how you measure, he should be a winger? Z projects as a highly creative offensive producing center. As someone else has posted, apparently his defensive stats are quite good so far. Why limit his potential by putting him on the wing where he is clearly less effective?

 

[Ducks DVM]

I think Zegras was put on the wing in part because it is an easier place to learn to play defense than center is.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

It’s what he was asked of himself to become better at that. If he could put up 60-70 points and stay near the top of this list consistently I think the team would be thrilled.

Of course they would. But I wonder if the tradeoff for him being a defensive stalwart on paper is that he doesn't produce much. And if so, then I wonder what the point is. I think it'd be a shame to take a truly unique and interesting offensive player and fancystat him into boring oblivion.

I hope Z has the ability to do both, but I worry.

 

[DavidBL]

I think Zegras was put on the wing in part because it is an easier place to learn to play defense than center is.

Maybe, if that's the case then it seems to clearly be working. Seems a shame to cripple his offense though. I'd love to see him given the opportunity back at center to see if he can out the 2 together. At the end if the day we all expect production more than we expect Defense. Doesn't mean he doesn't have to learn it and play it but his strengths are clearly on the offensive side of the puck

 

[lwvs84]

If we can keep getting (through FA, trade, or development) Vatrano/current version of Strome, we should run 3 lines. At some point, we won't have to over pay as much for free agents, keeping Carlsson/Mac/Z down the middle means we can fill out those wings easier. I don't think Z at wing will work without breaking up the second line of the "top" line can't start finishing at some point.

Vatrano-McTavish-Strome
Henrique-Carlsson-Terry
Killorn-Z-??? (See who works with Silf, Leason, Carrick, etc... maybe see what Perreault can do?)

We really need one got to step up as that last wing consistently to run 3 lines. It could be either wing since Vatrano plays both.

 

[ScarTroy]

Of course they would. But I wonder if the tradeoff for him being a defensive stalwart on paper is that he doesn't produce much. And if so, then I wonder what the point is. I think it'd be a shame to take a truly unique and interesting offensive player and fancystat him into boring oblivion.

I hope Z has the ability to do both, but I worry.

Yeah I get that, we’d all hope he can do both, but with his creative mind I’d rather release him offensively. I’m sure Cronin and him will find a balance.

 

[branmuffin17]

Maybe, if that's the case then it seems to clearly be working. Seems a shame to cripple his offense though. I'd love to see him given the opportunity back at center to see if he can out the 2 together. At the end if the day we all expect production more than we expect Defense. Doesn't mean he doesn't have to learn it and play it but his strengths are clearly on the offensive side of the puck

I think many here would agree that perhaps part of the reason his offense has looked crippled lately is because he's on a line with Puck-Hog-Terry and Leo, who's 1) still learning to play on NHL ice, 2) is still way young and needs to develop and find his comfort against NHL competition, and 3) might also be getting worked out super hard between games and may not have full-strength legs during games. I'm mostly interested in #3, because some nights Leo's got zip in his step, and others he looks flat-footed. Knowing that he's being worked half to exhaustion would give me confidence that Leo's being truly strengthened in the long run, and not just nowhere near ready for top-6 play.

Back to Z, I think the focus on him learning to play better D isn't so bad right now. We're not truly looking to be contenders this year, and instilling a comfort level in being able to play D to a higher level isn't a bad thing at this stage. I 100% feel that he'll shine the brightest as a playmaking C that is allowed to mainly focus on creative offense, but what I think he can learn here is to better spot when they need him to make a D play, and when it's safer to push for the O play. THAT is what I think can make him an effective 2-way player.

But he absolutely needs to get away from Terry. I agree with the others that want him playing w/ Killorn and another wing.

 

[KyleJRM]

I mean, yes? Defense and faceoffs are what define a center in modern NHL systems. The way teams operate in the offensive zone there isn't any difference in the roles of the three forwards.

Zegras' skill set is just poorly suited to center. His better offensive stats at center seem more like a fluke of the splits than anything intrinsic to the position.

Carlsson is a significantly better prospect than zegras, in part because of his size. So is mctavish. It's not a double standard to treat different caliber of prospects differently. well, I guess it is, but it's a perfectly sound and reasonable double standard.

 

[Rybread86]

Its also not a double standard when you have a new coaching staff/system/philosophy being taught and adopted.

Id also say that right now we are paying Zegras to get better. If he spends a season with a lower point total but significantly increases his defensive abilities, it will payoff as a more well rounded player down the road.

We are still in a transitional/developmental season. Some of the stuff we have to let play out.

 

[DavidBL]

I mean, yes? Defense and faceoffs are what define a center in modern NHL systems. The way teams operate in the offensive zone there isn't any difference in the roles of the three forwards.

Zegras' skill set is just poorly suited to center. His better offensive stats at center seem more like a fluke of the splits than anything intrinsic to the position.

Carlsson is a significantly better prospect than zegras, in part because of his size. So is mctavish. It's not a double standard to treat different caliber of prospects differently. well, I guess it is, but it's a perfectly sound and reasonable double standard.

And yet right now z is better at both. What happened to guys earning their jobs. The fact that Carlsson was 2nd overall pick shouldn't affect how the players are treated.

What evidence is there that he poorly suited at center? Honestly. You don't have to be big to be good at faceoffs or good defensively. Getzlaf was huge and he was never a faceoff juggernaut or was he a defensive mastermind. Z is literally doing everything he's been asked of him.

Youre suggesting the double standard is okay. I can see why and dont disagree that Calrsson is an important player for us but double standards are a bad precedent. Its a bad message. It hurts competiveness and fosters resentment which will hurt teamwork. These players are human and just saying do your job will have bad results.

Its also not a double standard when you have a new coaching staff/system/philosophy being taught and adopted.

Id also say that right now we are paying Zegras to get better. If he spends a season with a lower point total but significantly increases his defensive abilities, it will payoff as a more well rounded player down the road.

We are still in a transitional/developmental season. Some of the stuff we have to let play out.

I'd say it's fair argument but also doesn't make it right. See my comments above.

Yes, we're paying Z to get better defensively. But what are we rewarding him with? Taking away his preferred position? Reducing his ice time and role? Putting him In a position the with frustrate him long term? You're right that it's still early and there is plenty of things to play out. But I think it's important not to ignore the short term with long term blinders. There is a balance there. I'm not sure we're doing a great job of it right now.

 

[Mr Rogers]

Of course they would. But I wonder if the tradeoff for him being a defensive stalwart on paper is that he doesn't produce much. And if so, then I wonder what the point is. I think it'd be a shame to take a truly unique and interesting offensive player and fancystat him into boring oblivion.

I hope Z has the ability to do both, but I worry.

I thought it was a little concerning how much was being made of his defensive shortcomings over the offseason. Was he actually worse than comparable players or was a lot of it just a function of playing on awful teams for the 1st three seasons of his career? Now i'm worried that the pendulum has swung way too far the other way, they've gotta find a solution/happy medium and soon.

 

[Ducks DVM]

Zegras is generating shots at or above his normal. He just needs to start making his shots. This is “I missed training camp” rust, not Terry being a puck hog, not “I’m a center not a wing”. He’s been in position more than enough to have scored more than once in 30 shots. Cronin literally said that if he’d made a few shots nobody would be complaining, I’m not sure that the team is nearly as concerned as the boards are.

 

[DavidBL]

Zegras is generating shots at or above his normal. He just needs to start making his shots. This is “I missed training camp” rust, not Terry being a puck hog, not “I’m a center not a wing”. He’s been in position more than enough to have scored more than once in 30 shots. Cronin literally said that if he’d made a few shots nobody would be complaining, I’m not sure that the team is nearly as concerned as the birds are.

Maybe you're right and I am just making a mountain out of a mole hill. I just want to see him succeed. I feel it will be an awful waste if we manage to ruin his creativity.

 

[Ducks DVM]

Maybe you're right and I am just making a mountain out of a mole hill. I just want to see him succeed. I feel it will be an awful waste if we manage to ruin his creativity.

I honestly think it’s rust, and he will come around eventually. His ass also needs to spend a ton of time with Carrick and Henrique though, he’s also just like Carlsson hot garbage at faceoffs right now.

I will say that I’d rather have older Yzerman than young Yzerman though. Eliminate the stupid/careless stuff (and the mouth to the officials) and be a net large positive +/- even though he’s not a 100% offensive highlight reel.

 

[Rybread86]

And yet right now z is better at both. What happened to guys earning their jobs. The fact that Carlsson was 2nd overall pick shouldn't affect how the players are treated.

What evidence is there that he poorly suited at center? Honestly. You don't have to be big to be good at faceoffs or good defensively. Getzlaf was huge and he was never a faceoff juggernaut or was he a defensive mastermind. Z is literally doing everything he's been asked of him.

Youre suggesting the double standard is okay. I can see why and dont disagree that Calrsson is an important player for us but double standards are a bad precedent. Its a bad message. It hurts competiveness and fosters resentment which will hurt teamwork. These players are human and just saying do your job will have bad results.

I'd say it's fair argument but also doesn't make it right. See my comments above.

Yes, we're paying Z to get better defensively. But what are we rewarding him with? Taking away his preferred position? Reducing his ice time and role? Putting him In a position the with frustrate him long term? You're right that it's still early and there is plenty of things to play out. But I think it's important not to ignore the short term with long term blinders. There is a balance there. I'm not sure we're doing a great job of it right now.

Who of Z, Carlsson and McT strike you as a 3rd line center? None for me. So if its that important to a player to play their preferred position and the staff disagrees, he can air those grievances internally. if it continues to be a problem, he can become a blue chip trade asset.

And from the sounds of the interviews with Z, its fans that are frustrated, not him. Hes young. Hes learning the NHL. Hes adapting to new coaches and systems. If he wants to be part of the long term plan, that includes being a team player and adapting to the role the front office sees for him.

For all we know, they are trying things to see what sticks and if enough time passes with things not working as they planned, they will adjust fire at that time. We're only 12 games into a new season. There is a TON of time still left to see how thing's shake out.

Remember too, as good as Z looked in years prior, the team still sucked. I would say the more important thing is making sure the team is good and balanced as opposed to making sure 1 guy is exactly where he wants to be. There is also the possibility that Cronin is trying to send a message to Beeker in a way. "Hey, this is what I got, this is whats working, this is whats not. If you get me X, Y or Z in a trade or FA next year, heres what we can do, here is where certain guys thrive and where certain guys need help from linemates."

Cronins paraphrased words when speaking on Z "hes a great offensive mind, by making him focus on D, we're not going to ruin that. We're going to make him more well rounded, the offense will always be there." They arent going to ruin him by making him focus on a different aspect of his game for a while.

 

[70sSanO]

I’m thinking Carlsson sits out the San Jose game.

I would guess Zegras is 1C. Hopefully they move Killorn to the top line.

Cronin has to sit Terry and Zegras down and get Terry to defer to Zegras and make himself available for the pass. Hard to find a better opponent for Zegras to breakout.

John

 

[DavidBL]

Who of Z, Carlsson and McT strike you as a 3rd line center? None for me. So if its that important to a player to play their preferred position and the staff disagrees, he can air those grievances internally. if it continues to be a problem, he can become a blue chip trade asset.

And from the sounds of the interviews with Z, its fans that are frustrated, not him. Hes young. Hes learning the NHL. Hes adapting to new coaches and systems. If he wants to be part of the long term plan, that includes being a team player and adapting to the role the front office sees for him.

For all we know, they are trying things to see what sticks and if enough time passes with things not working as they planned, they will adjust fire at that time. We're only 12 games into a new season. There is a TON of time still left to see how thing's shake out.

Remember too, as good as Z looked in years prior, the team still sucked. I would say the more important thing is making sure the team is good and balanced as opposed to making sure 1 guy is exactly where he wants to be. There is also the possibility that Cronin is trying to send a message to Beeker in a way. "Hey, this is what I got, this is whats working, this is whats not. If you get me X, Y or Z in a trade or FA next year, heres what we can do, here is where certain guys thrive and where certain guys need help from linemates."

Cronins paraphrased words when speaking on Z "hes a great offensive mind, by making him focus on D, we're not going to ruin that. We're going to make him more well rounded, the offense will always be there." They arent going to ruin him by making him focus on a different aspect of his game for a while.

You're right there is still a lot left to work out. And in a traditional sense I don't think any of them are what we would term as a 3C. That being said at this stage we're not forced adhere to the typical line up model. It's been discussed in other areas but we have the flexibility right now to potentially support 3 "scoring" lines.

You're also probably right it's more fans, obviously myself included, that are frustrated. To me I see the potential to have 3 strong lines that all produce that they don't seem to want to try because they're set on Z being a winger.

I do think your 3rd point can go either way. There is an argument that 3 scoring lines would be more balanced than front loading your talent into 2 lines. On top of that if you get more out of Z at Center than at wing that also spreads out the skill more for more balanced team.

As for the final point. I hope Cronins right and we're not in danger if training what makes Z exiting out of him. As DVM had commented if Z had scored aome more goals it wouldnt be conversation. I concede, im likely overreacting to my frustrations. I will say the original comment was something like" I don't understand why people think Z has to be a center" in which I think the simple answer is that is where historically he has had success. Doesn't need to be any deeper than that and I leave it at that.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I’m thinking Carlsson sits out the San Jose game.

I would guess Zegras is 1C. Hopefully they move Killorn to the top line.

Cronin has to sit Terry and Zegras down and get Terry to defer to Zegras and make himself available for the pass. Hard to find a better opponent for Zegras to breakout.

John

Or...
just...
put...

killorn zegras leason together, and watch the magic

 

[Emerald Duck]

I agree with the earlier comments that Zegras and Terry need to be split up. Terry needs to focus on shooting or passing and stop with the figure skating on the outside where he is not a scoring threat.

I don't know about our offensive system, but there are other examples of wingers who control the puck and drive the offense. Patrick Kane, Artemi Panerin, Mikko Ratanen are a few that come to mind. They are not taking faceoffs or have the defensive responsibilities of a center, yet the offense runs through them. Zegras needs to have the puck to be effective, and he needs to play with forwards who can shoot or can anticipate the play.

I would try to pair Zegras with Henrique and Killorn. Allow Henrique to take on the center responsibilities but let Zegras drive the play. Both veterans know how to get open and see the ice at a similar level like Trevor. Neither is a pure shooter unfortunately, but outside of Vatrano and McTavish we don't have any other snipers (other than Terry when he is moving towards the net in a scoring position)

 

[Ducks DVM]

I’m thinking Carlsson sits out the San Jose game.

I would guess Zegras is 1C. Hopefully they move Killorn to the top line.

Cronin has to sit Terry and Zegras down and get Terry to defer to Zegras and make himself available for the pass. Hard to find a better opponent for Zegras to breakout.

John

Next week will be interesting. Carlsson has played twice this week, so he won’t play Friday Vs Philadelphia.

San Jose on Sunday, at Nashville Tuesday , at Colorado Wednesday, vs Florida Friday.

We know he won’t play one of Tuesday/Wednesday because it’s a back to back. So does he sit vs Sharks for a 6 day break then play at nashville, or instead play Wednesday in Colorado for a 7 day break, or play vs Sharks and then Friday vs Philadelphia for a 4 day break, game, 4 day break.

I would vote for the San Jose and Philly games for both selfish reasons and also having equal workout breaks and not be off games too long. Maybe even stay home to work out?

Interesting conundrum. Wish we knew exactly what their fitness plans really were.

 

[Ducks DVM]

Or...
just...
put...

killorn zegras leason together, and watch the magic

I really think that taking Leason off the 4th line and replacing him with Silfverberg makes both lines worse.

 

[70sSanO]

Or...
just...
put...

killorn zegras leason together, and watch the magic

Last year if you put the words Leason and magic in the same sentence you would have been banned from the forum for life.

This year Leason-Carrick-Johnston are pretty magic.

John