Trevor Timmins Part II

[Whitesnake]

So then you should be excusing Timmins for striking out under Bergevin in the Timmins thread, no?

Nice try but...nope. He might very well suggest to Timmins that if he hesitates between 2 players, go with the "karakter" guys....but it will never make Timmins draft a player he doesn't want. You should know my stance by now....

Well said. MB has done a wonderful job considering the realistic circumstances has has been dealing with.

Lets look at Trevor Timmons draft history since taking the job in the 2002-2003 season

1st round picks: Kostitsyn (10), Chipchura (18), Price (5), Fischer (20), McDonagh (12), Pacioretty (22), Leblanc (18), Tinordi (22), Beaulieu (17), Galchenyuk (3), McCarron (25), Scherbak (26), Juulsen (26), Sergachev (9). The picks have not been bad but we have to wait to see how the last 4 1st round picks make out in the next 2 years.

2nd round picks or higher that ended up being impact players: Lapierre (61), Emelin (84), Grabovski (150), Latendresse (45), White (66), Subban (43), Gallagher (147), De La Rose (34), Lehkonen (55),

Before you criticize TT and how good or bad he is, Do this for all other 29 teams and see how many impact NHL'er they have drafted. All teams have bad draft years. The difference between a good drafting team and a bad one is how they do from the middle of the 1st round and later.

When TT has gotten at top 10 pick, he has done very well. After looking in more depth, I believe he has done very well in the last few years compared to his 1st few years but the truth will be told over time.

What I believe is that Timmins was a gem where he was hired. And was probably ahead of his time. Quite a few teams sucked in their drafting department. Then, the game has changed, teams have fired a lot of people and re-hired others. So it's all great to totally compare...but you will not be comparing guys. You will be comparing Timmins to teams. I'd like to know from each team...who is there, who was there and was fired and who was re-hired just to be able to compare people with people.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I,d say that it seems to be the case for players he drafts though....

When your typically drafting in the mid to later part of the 1st round, drafting character guys is a good strategy as it gives you a better shot and finding a guy who will be a future NHL'er. After the middle of the 1st round, it becomes filling in position of need and crossing your fingers that what your read/hear/see becomes the truth.

Look at Furcale. I don't recall too many people being upset about using a low 2nd round pick to draft him at the time. Now fast forward to today and he's not looking very well. It's a gamble and sometimes the player just doesn't live up to expectations based on his draft year!

Nice try but...nope. He might very well suggest to Timmins that if he hesitates between 2 players, go with the "karakter" guys....but it will never make Timmins draft a player he doesn't want. You should know my stance by now....

If anyone things MB does not have any imput on Timmins selections, your not being realistic. It's Timmins job to scout the players and produce reports for the Habs management to review. MB makes the final call people! That's a GM's job.

 

[1909]

If anyone things MB does not have any imput on Timmins selections, your not being realistic. It's Timmins job to scout the players and produce reports for the Habs management to review. MB makes the final call people! That's a GM's job.

When picks are good, it is because of Timmins...

When they are bad, it is MB's fault....

 

[DAChampion]

When picks are good, it is because of Timmins...

When they are bad, it is MB's fault....

Don't put words in people's mouths. Lots of people acknowledge many of Timmins' failings.

 

[Whitesnake]

If anyone things MB does not have any imput on Timmins selections, your not being realistic. It's Timmins job to scout the players and produce reports for the Habs management to review. MB makes the final call people! That's a GM's job.

Grant McCagg, real close to Timmins, have said already, as I thought at first, that Timmins is his own boss when drafting is concerned. Again, I don't doubt that if Bergevin sees a coupel of players, he will give his input. I have no doubt that he gives the scouting crew his "guideline" where he'd strongly suggest things he want the crew to look for.....but I don't believe it will NEVER make those guys choose somebody they don't want.

Nope. I don't agree. It's not the GM job. If Timmins has a choice between a Czech and a Russian that they've seen 10 times each and that Bergevin didn't see....you will think Bergevin will choose the player at the end? Don't believe. And neither does McCagg who is real close to those guys. So we will have to agree to disagree here 'cause that was my stance on it prior to McCagg coming in and stating it....and will always be my stance till Timmins himself tell us that he doesn't make the final call. GM job is to put the right people in place. GM job is to let the guys that know what they are doing do their job.

When picks are good, it is because of Timmins...

When they are bad, it is MB's fault....

Well not for me. Draft picks starts and ends with Timmins. Good or bad.

 

[montreal]

Yet again, I'm not dismissing that he had less picks to work with. But having less picks did not make him choose Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu in the 1st round. And while he had more picks before, whilei he did struck out in a few late rounds, as everybody does, he also was able to find gems too. You'd just wish he'd still find them now with less picks. That's actually what I would count the best head scout in the business to do. The day we find him to be just good and not incredible, I guess expectations would be lower. I'M just not sure how a guy can be seen as the best, if he can share the same excuses as all the others do.

And who knows where Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu would be if not for the mistakes in their development from management bringing them up at 20 to Lefebvre coaching them in the AHL. At the time of the draft, all were solid picks for later 1st rounders. Leblanc was coming off a big season in the USHL, Tinordi as a 6'6 blueliner had his appeal and Beaulieu was thought of a good pickup for dropping to us. We know that there will be misses and there a good bit of blame for Timmins with each of these picks but in the end I don't see much fault outside of hindsight.

As for later picks, he got Gallagher, Nygren could be in the NHL right now if things had gone differently so not Timmins fault and who knows if he will be some day. Didier was playing really well this year and imo was our top blueliner in the AHL this year. Pribyl from what I hear is doing well in the AHL. Hudon could be a regular next year, Nystrom who knows if he comes back to North America, seems to be doing well in Sweden again this year. Reway if his health improves could be a steal who knows. Jake Evans could be in the AHL next year, has been doing a very good job the past 2 years. I've heard nothing but good things on Hawkey so far. Addison could be an NHLer. Bourque we'll see what he does in the AHL next year. Mete is off to a great start.

There's a lot to like still from his later round picks, of course not of them will make it but when you pick less it's going to impact your system.

 

[NotProkofievian]

The so little picks argument fails for two reasons:

1) The lack of 9th round draft choices is irrelevant.
2) The Habs do lose 2nd rounders some years, but they gain them in other years. This has the affect of shifting the expectations in time, but not adjusting them.

Timmins did get fewer 2nd rounders in the period 2008-2011 ... but he got them all back in 2012 and 2013. There is no net loss of draft choices, just a delay.

There was an extra first rounder in 2007 (Max Pacioretty) and a lost 1st rounder in 2008 (John Carlson?). The net change is null as well.

This analysis fails for one reason: time isn't free. It's not just a delay. Those picks were worth less than the ones that were traded because we had to wait to make them. Those players who will make the NHL will arrive later. That's a cost. It's the reason why scrubadam has a leg to stand on with his ''what have you done for me lately'' argument, and thus, the ''paucity of picks'' (trademarking that) argument is a sound refutation of scrub's proposition: that we haven't had many graduations because Timmins sucks.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Grant McCagg, real close to Timmins, have said already, as I thought at first, that Timmins is his own boss when drafting is concerned. Again, I don't doubt that if Bergevin sees a coupel of players, he will give his input. I have no doubt that he gives the scouting crew his "guideline" where he'd strongly suggest things he want the crew to look for.....but I don't believe it will NEVER make those guys choose somebody they don't want.

Nope. I don't agree. It's not the GM job. If Timmins has a choice between a Czech and a Russian that they've seen 10 times each and that Bergevin didn't see....you will think Bergevin will choose the player at the end? Don't believe. And neither does McCagg who is real close to those guys. So we will have to agree to disagree here 'cause that was my stance on it prior to McCagg coming in and stating it....and will always be my stance till Timmins himself tell us that he doesn't make the final call.

I see your point but lets be real. The GM has last call. A good GM listens to his team and their expertise on every decision (that's what your trying to explain to us). However, in the end of the day, the GM should trust his director of scouting but has to approve the pick and is therefore ultimately responsible. If there is a disagreement and a draft pick is changed, do you really think we would know about it? This goes for all teams.

When picks are good, it is because of Timmins...

When they are bad, it is MB's fault....

Yeah I know eh... It should be more like they both get credit when picks are good and both get criticized when picks are bad. But some like to search real hard at finding "facts" to support opinions or hate. lol

 

[Whitesnake]

I see your point but lets be real. The GM has last call. A good GM listens to his team and their expertise on every decision (that's what your trying to explain to us). However, in the end of the day, the GM should trust his director of scouting but has to approve the pick and is therefore ultimately responsible. If there is a disagreement and a draft pick is changed, do you really think we would know about it? This goes for all teams.

And again, don't take my word. Take the word of the guy who knows him. I don't know him. Spoke to Timmins for 45 minutes ONCE when the the development camp was at the Martin Lapointe Arena....says a lot. Yet, I had my opinion on the subject and was confirmed by a guy who isn't exactly my #1 fan. So he wasn't confirming it to please me, I was confirming it to say how it really works.

Again, I have no idea what Bergevin would have to approve. This scouting crew does their job thoroughly. And they will not come up to Bergevin saying...."we have a choice between 2 guys, a good or bad one....both of those guys will have great qualities if it comes to that. And eventually, I'm just sure that Bergevin will say...do whatever you think it's right. The only way I see Bergevin having a greater input is if he has seen personnally some kids play. And that, is NOT the GM job. But if he's like me, he'd certainly want to scout a few times too. But my understanding might be once the scouting crew has already done their job. And want to add another input. Will always remember just before the Price pick, Bob Gainey going to Timmins and asking him....Are you sure? That was Gainey's input. Referring to...his head scout. I doubt that with everything they have given Timmins over the years, that he'd be Bergie's puppet. I believe that everybody talks to everybody. It's a teamwork. But that eventually, a guy that has seen as prospect play 15 times, will have the final word over the guy who hasn't seen a guy play. My opinion.

 

[Whitesnake]

Yeah I know eh... It should be more like they both get credit when picks are good and both get criticized when picks are bad. But some like to search real hard at finding "facts" to support opinions or hate. lol

Well again, not really. Even if we'd all agree that it,s a big family that loves and talks to each other, each have a specific job. Should we bash or praise Bergevin for Therrien's decisions on the bench? Scouting is a freakin different beast. So might as well just target the ones who are responsible for it. Geez, especially in Montreal....we have him, a VP of Player Personel in charge of recruiting on top of having a Directeur of Amateur Scouting in Churla, and 15 freakin Amateur Scouts. That has to be one of the largest group in the league. To each their own. As a GM, you draw your overall thought process, you pick the right people, and you let them do their work. Timmins has been around for life. We are not talking about a new kid coming up here.

 

[scrubadam]

And who knows where Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu would be if not for the mistakes in their development from management bringing them up at 20 to Lefebvre coaching them in the AHL. At the time of the draft, all were solid picks for later 1st rounders. Leblanc was coming off a big season in the USHL, Tinordi as a 6'6 blueliner had his appeal and Beaulieu was thought of a good pickup for dropping to us. We know that there will be misses and there a good bit of blame for Timmins with each of these picks but in the end I don't see much fault outside of hindsight.

As for later picks, he got Gallagher, Nygren could be in the NHL right now if things had gone differently so not Timmins fault and who knows if he will be some day. Didier was playing really well this year and imo was our top blueliner in the AHL this year. Pribyl from what I hear is doing well in the AHL. Hudon could be a regular next year, Nystrom who knows if he comes back to North America, seems to be doing well in Sweden again this year. Reway if his health improves could be a steal who knows. Jake Evans could be in the AHL next year, has been doing a very good job the past 2 years. I've heard nothing but good things on Hawkey so far. Addison could be an NHLer. Bourque we'll see what he does in the AHL next year. Mete is off to a great start.

There's a lot to like still from his later round picks, of course not of them will make it but when you pick less it's going to impact your system.

I disagree about the players being ruined because they were brought up. Pasternak wasn't ruined, Galley wasn't ruined, AG wasn't ruined. Getting some games as young player should make you hungrier and understand what it takes to be an NHLer not ruin your career. And its not like these guys were left to die over 82 games and given the pressure of being top players on the team.

Tinordi was not a good pick any way you slice it. Even his CHL career was underwhelming. And taking him over Kuz when the team has been dying for a C forever big mistake. That pick was a pick from a bygone era. McIllrith from the same draft was a bust too. Just a bad pick and reminds me of the Fischer over Giroux pick. LL was a homer pick but with Krieder right there agian mistake. NB over Klefboom its a toss up.

Lots of names listed but probably all those names will never make an impact in the NHL. Just like Avitsen, Turnev, Bournival etc who were always put on lists but never panned out.

At this point I don't care who is blamed. Lack of picks, development, Gauthier doesn't matter. I think everyone can agree that 08-12 has not been good for the habs. So MB is the GM and he has to do what needs to be done to turn it around. Fire Sly if need be. But the team can't go through another 4 year period of seeing practically nothing.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Well again, not really. Even if we'd all agree that it,s a big family that loves and talks to each other, each have a specific job. Should we bash or praise Bergevin for Therrien's decisions on the bench? Scouting is a freakin different beast. So might as well just target the ones who are responsible for it. Geez, especially in Montreal....we have him, a VP of Player Personel in charge of recruiting on top of having a Directeur of Amateur Scouting in Churla, and 15 freakin Amateur Scouts. That has to be one of the largest group in the league. To each their own. As a GM, you draw your overall thought process, you pick the right people, and you let them do their work. Timmins has been around for life. We are not talking about a new kid coming up here.

Any good GM that has a large budget to work with, will surround himself with many advisors as possible to help him make the right move. Yes, we disagree but your not going to convince me MB does not make the last call on all major decisions including who the Habs draft. TT plays a large part as it is his job but does not have the last call!

But wait... he don't tell MT what to do during the games right? I think your comparing two different things here man. Decisions during the game are made during the game in a 3 hour window with some additional thinking between periods. Draft picks are a result of years of evaluation. Big difference between the two!

 

[montreal]

I disagree about the players being ruined because they were brought up. Pasternak wasn't ruined, Galley wasn't ruined, AG wasn't ruined. Getting some games as young player should make you hungrier and understand what it takes to be an NHLer not ruin your career. And its not like these guys were left to die over 82 games and given the pressure of being top players on the team.

Tinordi was not a good pick any way you slice it. Even his CHL career was underwhelming. And taking him over Kuz when the team has been dying for a C forever big mistake. That pick was a pick from a bygone era. McIllrith from the same draft was a bust too. Just a bad pick and reminds me of the Fischer over Giroux pick. LL was a homer pick but with Krieder right there agian mistake. NB over Klefboom its a toss up.

Lots of names listed but probably all those names will never make an impact in the NHL. Just like Avitsen, Turnev, Bournival etc who were always put on lists but never panned out.

At this point I don't care who is blamed. Lack of picks, development, Gauthier doesn't matter. I think everyone can agree that 08-12 has not been good for the habs. So MB is the GM and he has to do what needs to be done to turn it around. Fire Sly if need be. But the team can't go through another 4 year period of seeing practically nothing.

you can't paint all players by the same brush. Just because some weren't ruined doesn't mean others weren't.

Tinordi was a good pick at the time, as picking 6'6 blueliners was still in style and it's hard to fault the scouting staff for the NHL changing so quickly. Fischer wasn't a big pick at the time either. He was 6'5, was a very good skater with mobility and was a puck mover. He played against McDonagh in the Minn USHS state tournament, just that one of them kept progressing while the other peaked and lacked physical strength. I also don't think Leblanc was a "homer" pick, there were other locals they could have picked at that spot that they were rumored to have liked (Despres) Leblanc was just the Rookie of the Year in the USHL at 17 and led his team in scoring.

As for the list, there's a lot to like, of course most likely won't make it since they were drafted outside the top 50 so odds are heavily stacked against them but doesn't mean a few won't make it.

 

[Whitesnake]

Any good GM that has a large budget to work with, will surround himself with many advisors as possible to help him make the right move. Yes, we disagree but your not going to convince me MB does not make the last call on all major decisions including who the Habs draft. TT plays a large part as it is his job but does not have the last call!

But wait... he don't tell MT what to do during the games right? I think your comparing two different things here man. Decisions during the game are made during the game in a 3 hour window with some additional thinking between periods. Draft picks are a result of years of evaluation. Big difference between the two!

Hey, I'm not here to convince you of anything. Never was, never do, never will be. Just like you'll never convince me that MB has the last call. Somehow, you seem to think that it's solely my opiion when I keep saying that McCagg once told us that it's exactly how it works....Timmins has the last call. But you seem to want to forget that. Fine.

As far as my coaching example, well it's obviously not what I'm talking about. But once the game is done....and they talk to each other.....and they talk about strategies....and adjust for the next games....you think that MB has the last call over Therrien as far as who plays how and where? Of course not. Therrien might try a few things MB is suggesting, but the man behind the bench, whether it's during or even after....is Therrien. The day MB hates what Therrien does, he's not going to tell him to change....he'll fire him.

 

[scrubadam]

you can't paint all players by the same brush. Just because some weren't ruined doesn't mean others weren't.

Tinordi was a good pick at the time, as picking 6'6 blueliners was still in style and it's hard to fault the scouting staff for the NHL changing so quickly. Fischer wasn't a big pick at the time either. He was 6'5, was a very good skater with mobility and was a puck mover. He played against McDonagh in the Minn USHS state tournament, just that one of them kept progressing while the other peaked and lacked physical strength. I also don't think Leblanc was a "homer" pick, there were other locals they could have picked at that spot that they were rumored to have liked (Despres) Leblanc was just the Rookie of the Year in the USHL at 17 and led his team in scoring.

As for the list, there's a lot to like, of course most likely won't make it since they were drafted outside the top 50 so odds are heavily stacked against them but doesn't mean a few won't make it.

So how do you determine who is ruined then? When is it on the player and not the org? Basically sounds like if a player doesn't make it they are ruined ? Playing a couple of games in the NHL should in no way ruin a player. Sure if you take a 18/19 year old and make them your top C or D for a full season I could understand, but in reality most complained about how we brought along prospects to slowley not to fast!

I disagree about being a good pick at the time. The only way you can judge a pick is if they make it or not. Every pick is good at the time because these are the top players in their age group. If they weren't seen as "good picks" they wouldn't make it on scouts lists and what not. And the problem is that the scouts feel in love with the bloodlines and body but forgot about other important elements to being a hockey player. Tinordi was already busting when he went to London after his draft.

LL I call it a homer pick because the draft was in Montreal. I am sure there were some good reasons to draft him but I would take Krieder over LL 100 times over.

I hope a few make it because every NHL team needs cheap young players with the way the cap is. When AG/Rads are earning 6 Million + Price 8.5-10 and then Max wants his too the rest of the lineup will need to be filled by over performing drafted players.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Hey, I'm not here to convince you of anything. Never was, never do, never will be. Just like you'll never convince me that MB has the last call. Somehow, you seem to think that it's solely my opiion when I keep saying that McCagg once told us that it's exactly how it works....Timmins has the last call. But you seem to want to forget that. Fine.

As far as my coaching example, well it's obviously not what I'm talking about. But once the game is done....and they talk to each other.....and they talk about strategies....and adjust for the next games....you think that MB has the last call over Therrien as far as who plays how and where? Of course not. Therrien might try a few things MB is suggesting, but the man behind the bench, whether it's during or even after....is Therrien. The day MB hates what Therrien does, he's not going to tell him to change....he'll fire him.

MB has last call. End of story. That's what the GM is for and is responsible for listening/agreeing/disagreeing with all members of his staff.

You think MB was able to trade Subban for Weber without Molson's approval? The chain of command works uphill and that's how it's been and always will be.

 

[Habs100]

When your typically drafting in the mid to later part of the 1st round, drafting character guys is a good strategy as it gives you a better shot and finding a guy who will be a future NHL'er. After the middle of the 1st round, it becomes filling in position of need and crossing your fingers that what your read/hear/see becomes the truth.

Look at Furcale. I don't recall too many people being upset about using a low 2nd round pick to draft him at the time. Now fast forward to today and he's not looking very well. It's a gamble and sometimes the player just doesn't live up to expectations based on his draft year!


If anyone things MB does not have any imput on Timmins selections, your not being realistic. It's Timmins job to scout the players and produce reports for the Habs management to review. MB makes the final call people! That's a GM's job.

When Gainey was here, he made it clear he left everything up to Timmins. A smart GM would do that.

It's just too bad Gainey didn't listen to Timmins when he begged him not to include McDonagh in the Gomez deal.

 

[Whitesnake]

MB has last call. End of story. That's what the GM is for and is responsible for listening/agreeing/disagreeing with all members of his staff.

You think MB was able to trade Subban for Weber without Molson's approval? The chain of command works uphill and that's how it's been and always will be.

Well sorry, but not end of story for me. You think that Molson wanted PK to be traded? With everyting is was giving this franchise, whether it was notoriety, money and whatever? Nope. It worked the same way than it works for scouting....Molson asked his questions, but surely ended up with "If you really think it would help the team, go for it". It's all about appointing guys at the right place and giving them carte blanche. Then, if they keep making mistakes after mistakes, they will be fired.

The last call the owner has is to hire and fire the GM. Last call Bergevin has for his scouting crew is to hire and fire them. What they do in between is their business. You know the GM in the league has not a lot of input in scouting when most of them suck at the trade table and yet succeed at the draft and the contrary. Nobody should ever give credit to Réjean Houle for the 1998 draft.....

Don't be fool by the "It's all on me" stuff Bergevin said. 'Cause if it would be, the first move he's going to make when things aren't going to be rosy would be to fire himself because he fires anybody else. Can't wait to see that happen.

 

[jfm133]

Bergevin didn't acquire Gallagher. Galchenyuk and Lehkonen are debatable considering it was Timmins who got us these players.

For all the bad moves Gainey made, I still give him credit for Price, Max and PK, because he made the decision to keep Timmins. So the same logic applies to Bergevin. He also made the wise decision to keep Timmins, so the credit for Galchenyuk, Lekohenen and the all the other ones that will followneeds to ultimately given to him.

Timmins was once able to do a lot with not so much.

Sorry. The best year for Timmins was 2007 and that year he had picks #12, #22 and #43. It's a statistical thing. Nobody hits for 1.000, but the more at bat in good position you have, the higher the odds are of hiting something good. Between 2008 and 2011, Timmins had only 6 picks out of a normal 12 in the first three rounds, the best rounds and not picking higher than #17. Those who disregard that fundamental fact and do cherry picking to make him look bad, understand nothing about the draft, or they just want to bash him no matter what.

This will be my last post about this in this thread since it's getting pretty off topic. It's fine to say he added Weber, but he only did so because he already had a Norris level defenceman. Same goes for Galchenyuk, he came in and had a 3rd overall pick, it's not like he had to work for it, all he had to do was get out of Timmins way. He's basically added Petry, Radulov and depth players. If Radulov leaves as a FA, then his record is very thin for 5 years of work.

He nailed it with Galchenyuk, it was the same for Gainey with Price. Remember Wickenheiser for us and many other poor picks in the top-5 over the years. Just in 2012, in the top-5, two huge mistakes were done, Yak and Reinhart. So it was not automatic and we know the second up on the list was Morgan Reilly. Full credit to Bergevin.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Well sorry, but not end of story for me. You think that Molson wanted PK to be traded? With everyting is was giving this franchise, whether it was notoriety, money and whatever? Nope. It worked the same way than it works for scouting....Molson asked his questions, but surely ended up with "If you really think it would help the team, go for it". It's all about appointing guys at the right place and giving them carte blanche. Then, if they keep making mistakes after mistakes, they will be fired.

The last call the owner has is to hire and fire the GM. Last call Bergevin has for his scouting crew is to hire and fire them. What they do in between is their business. You know the GM in the league has not a lot of input in scouting when most of them suck at the trade table and yet succeed at the draft and the contrary. Nobody should ever give credit to Réjean Houle for the 1998 draft.....

Don't be fool by the "It's all on me" stuff Bergevin said. 'Cause if it would be, the first move he's going to make when things aren't going to be rosy would be to fire himself because he fires anybody else. Can't wait to see that happen.

How would you explain that MB didn't want to give Subban the 8 year/$9M per year contract but Geoff Molson told him to do it. That's what I heard anyways.

He nailed it with Galchenyuk, it was the same for Gainey with Price. Remember Wickenheiser for us and many other poor picks in the top-5 over the years. Just in 2012, in the top-5, two huge mistakes were done, Yak and Reinhart. So it was not automatic and we know the second up on the list was Morgan Reilly. Full credit to Bergevin.

I agree. The GM has to get credit in the end for all major decisions. It could be a direct decision or a indirect decision but in the end, the GM gets both credit and criticism where it's due! Every major decision goes through the GM, including draft pick approvals.

 

[jfm133]

The so little picks argument fails for two reasons:

1) The lack of 9th round draft choices is irrelevant.
2) The Habs do lose 2nd rounders some years, but they gain them in other years. This has the affect of shifting the expectations in time, but not adjusting them.

Timmins did get fewer 2nd rounders in the period 2008-2011 ... but he got them all back in 2012 and 2013. There is no net loss of draft choices, just a delay.

There was an extra first rounder in 2007 (Max Pacioretty) and a lost 1st rounder in 2008 (John Carlson?). The net change is null as well.

You are just showing us how stupid it is to judge Timmins on the 2008-2011 window.

 

[Habs Halifax]

When Gainey was here, he made it clear he left everything up to Timmins. A smart GM would do that.

It's just too bad Gainey didn't listen to Timmins when he begged him not to include McDonagh in the Gomez deal.

I was a big Gainey fan as he came in and made the Habs more relevant again after the disaster of RH/MT days and the trading of Roy. Gainey did some good for the Habs at the beginning but he made some bad moves (in hindsight) near the end before he left.

Timmins job is to ensure the prospect system is stocked up and balanced. He will never agree with the trading of any of his picks. Especially a 1st rounder.

 

[Steve Shutt]

Compiled a list of Hab picks that were traded away since Timmins joined us. Curious if Timmins could have drafted someone better than what we received. I listed who the other team drafted and how many NHL games the player acquired played after that date (Mtl + other teams).
Note: I didn't include trades involving picks for picks or when the Habs improve their draft position

===========2003-2009 Gainey Years===============

2003
Traded: 7th round pick -->MIN (#207-Georgi Misharin)
Received: Sylvain Blouin (17 NHL Games)
Rating: *
Thoughts: Nothing Much but Worth the risk

2004
Traded: Balej (14)+ 2nd round pick--> NYR (#51-Bruce Graham)
Acquired: Alexei Kovalev (467 NHL Games)
Rating: *****
Thoughts: Homerun. Great use of picks & prospects to add talent to our roster

Traded: 4th round pick ---> MIN (#117-Julien Sprunger)
Acquired: Jim Dowd (231 NHL Games)
Rating: ***
Thoughts: We didn't resign him but he did play 11 playoff games with us and still had a lot left in the tank

Traded: Garon (298) & 3rd round pick --> LA (#95-Paul Baier)
Acquired: Radek Bonk (280) & Cristobal Huet (219 NHL Games)
Rating: ***
Thoughts: Brought in two vets. Worth sacrificing a 3rd and prospect. We also got a 2nd for Huet years later

2006
Traded: 6th round pick --> CHI(#169-Chris Auger)
Received: Todd Simpson (6 NHL Games)
Rating: *
Thoughts: Wasted Pick

Traded: 4th round pick --> ARI (#103-Vladimir Ruzicka)
Received: Mike Johnson (129 NHL Games)
Rating: **
Thoughts: Love to see what Timmins could do with a 4th but 129 NHL games is a stretch for a 4th round pick

2007
Traded: 7th round pick --> NYR (#193-David Skokan)
Received: Ryan Russell (41 NHL Games)
Rating: *
Thoughts: MEH

2008
Traded: 2008 1st & 2008 2nd --> CAL (#25-Greg Nemisz) & (#49-Stefan Elliott)
Received: Alex Tanguay (479 NHL Games) & 5th round pick
Rating: ****
Thoughts: This one hurt because the Habs didn't resign Tanguay but getting a solid 30 year old who can play on your top line for a late 1st and 2nd strengthens the team. Must be tough for Timmins to lose two solid picks and then witness poor asset management from the GM as Tanguay left.

Traded: 2nd round pick --> CHI (#32-Jared Knight)
Received: Robert Lang (114 NHL Games)
Rating: **
Thoughts: Lang played well in his one season with us 39pts/50GP. However poor asset management bites us again as Lang left for the Coyotes the next season. Hurts even more that the pick was at the start of the second round (#32).

2009
Traded: 2nd & 3rd ---> ATL (#45-Jeremy Morin) & (#87-Julian Melchiori)
Received: Mathieu Schneider (48 NHL Games) & 3rd
Rating: *
Thoughts: Deadline acquisition who played great 17pts/23GPs but Habs were swept in the opening round of the playoffs. Asset Management hurts again as Schneider quickly left for Van the next season. A 2nd would have been way more valuable in Timmins' hands


==========2010 Gauthier & Gainey Years===============

2010
Traded: 2nd round pick --> FLR (#47-Matt Nieto)
Received: Dominic Moore (446 NHL Games)
Rating: ****
Thoughts: I have no issue with acquiring a 28 year old Center 11pts/21GP and a solid support for a great playoff run but our asset management was horrible. Moore left for TB the next season and continues to play today.

Traded: 2nd round pick & 5th --> NYI (#50-Johan Sundstrom)
Received: James Wisniewski (300 NHLGames)
Rating: *****
Thoughts: Great acquisition 30pts/43 GPS but terrible asset management as he left for Columbus at the end of his first season.

==========2011-2013 Gauthier Years===============
2011
Traded: 5th round pick --> ANA
Received: Paul Mara (95 NHL Games)
Rating: **
Thoughts: We didn't end up using Mara in the playoffs (was he injured?) Would rather give Timmins a 5th
but 95 NHL games for a 5th is decent

Traded: 4th round pick --> ATL
Received: Nigel Dawes (4 NHLGames) & Brent Sopel (12 NHL Games)
Rating: *
Thoughts: Blah - What a waste of a 4th

===========2012-2016 Bergevin Years===============
2013
Traded: 5th round pick --> LA
Received: Davis Drewiske (9 NHL Games)
Rating: *
Thoughts: Keeping the pick would have been better

2014
Traded: 5th round pick --> FLR
Received: Mike Weaver (48 NHL Games)
Rating: **
Thoughts: Depth for Mtl playoff run (17 Playoff Games). Re-signed for following season

Traded: Collberg & 2nd round pick --> NYI
Received: Thomas Vanek (194 NHL Games)
Rating: ***
Thoughts: Great Acquisition for the Habs playoff run (17 Games). Shame we couldn't resign him

2014
Traded: 5th round pick --> Buf
Received: Brian Flynn (87 NHL Games)
Rating: ****
Thoughts: Great Acquisition at the expense of a 5th

Traded: 2nd round pick & 4th --> Edm
Received: Jeff Petry (101 NHL Games)
Rating: *****
Thoughts: Great use of assets to acquire a 27 year old solid Dman

Traded: 7th & Jack Nevins --> Buf
Received: Torrey Mitchell (117 Nhl Games)
Rating: *****
Thoughts: Solid return for a 7th

2016
Traded: 2nd & 2nd --> CHI
Received: Andrew Shaw
Rating: ***
Thoughts: Solid Sparkplug only 24 at the time of acquisition


Observation:
Gainey's Asset Management was horrible in 2008-2010. Acquired Tanguay, Lang, Schneider, Moore, and Wisniewski costing us a 1st (2008 #25), 2nd (2009 #45), 2nd (2010 #32), 2nd (2009 #49), 2nd (2011 #47), 2nd (2011 #50), 3rd (2010 #87) and 5th(2012) and let all of those guys walk immediately after. Ouch!

Here's a few of the guys available when those picks were made. I realize hindsight is 20/20 but imagine if Timmins would have grabbed only 2 or 3 out of all these guys - that would be a significant upgrade to our team today.

1st (2008 #25)

#25 Greg Nemisz
#26 Tyler Ennis
#27 John Carlson
#28 Viktor Tikhonov
#31 Jacob Markstrom
#32 Vyacheslav Voynov​

2nd (2009 #45)
2nd (2009 #49)

#45 Jeremy Morin
#46 Robin Lehner
#49 Stefan Elliott
#51 Brian Dumoulin
#52 Richard Panik
#54 Eric Gelinas
#55 Dmitri Orlov
#59 Brandon Pirri
#60 Tomas Tatar​

2nd (2010 #32)

#32 Jared Knight
#36 Alex Petrovic
#37 Justin Faulk
#38 Jon Merrill
#42 Devante Smith-Pelly
#45 Ryan Spooner
#46 Martin Marincin
#47 Tyler Toffoli​

3rd (2010 #87)

#87 Julian Melchiori
#89 Michael Chaput
#90 Joakim Nordstrom
#97 Craig Cunningham
#99 Joonas Donskoi​

2nd (2011 #47)
2nd (2011 #50)

#47 Matthew Nieto
#48 Xavier Ouellet
#52 Miikka Salomaki
#53 William Karlsson
#54 Scott Harrington
#55 Ryan Sproul
#58 Nikita Kucherov​

5th(2012 #124)

#124 Ryan Culkin
#130 Connor Hellebuyck
#131 Seth Griffith​

 

[Whitesnake]

Sorry. The best year for Timmins was 2007 and that year he had picks #12, #22 and #43. It's a statistical thing. Nobody hits for 1.000, but the more at bat in good position you have, the higher the odds are of hiting something good. Between 2008 and 2011, Timmins had only 6 picks out of a normal 12 in the first three rounds, the best rounds and not picking higher than #17. Those who disregard that fundamental fact and do cherry picking to make him look bad, understand nothing about the draft, or they just want to bash him no matter what.

Nah it's not. Couldn't care less if he had #12, #22 and #43....he STILL could have drafted Angelo Esposito, David Perron and Kevin Veilleux. If Timmins does an awful job in 2007 and still in 2010 is able to get our hands on Gallagher and let say he adds a Kuznetsov instead of Tinordi....it makes 2010 where he had just 5 picks, a better one than then 2007. The only statistics that works out usually is a top 5 pick. People who get a top 5 usuall get a top player. THAT you could argue. See the Price and Galchenyuk picks. So we didn't have enough top 5 I guess. The rest? I keep reading how Timmins can't do miracles with late 1st round....why do you add that AND a 2nd as if it's a proof that when he gets top picks, he succeeds? What will you say if Mac/DLR/Fucale do not give any top 6 player or top 2 goalie? Based on your type of analysis, shouldn't it be a guarantee of better draft picks compared to rounds with no 2nd rounders? Thinking that is also not understand the draft very much. Way too simplistic approach.

Chicago in 2004 had the 3, 32, 41, 45, 54 and 68 picks. That gave them Barker, Bolland, Bickell, Garlock, Sindel and Berti. Not bad especially the Bolland and Bickell pick. Still, they were able to do more in 2003 when with the 14, 52 and 245 they were able to pick Seabrook, Crawford and Byfuglien.

Yeah, nobody hits 1000. I have no idea who told you that this is what I was expecting. It,s great to build arguments that doesn't exist.

Let's remind you and other people panicking over my stance on the subject that the only thing I'm saying is that I wished he would have done better and he's not the god that some thought he was. Nowhere do I want him out. Nowhere do I call him bad. Just so people put those kinds of replies into "context".

 

[jfm133]

Picking 17 years old kids is by far not and exact science. Blaming a chief scout or GM for one pick, one year or well chosen window of years is totally irrelevant. If draft was an exact science, the redraft 15 years after of any given year would be very similar to the real draft. We all know it's not the case for every year and the more you go away from the first picks, the greater the variability.

A chief scout must be judged on his average over a long period and taking into account the number of picks he had, and how early they were. That's it, and when we apply those criteria to Timmins, he is clearly one of the best. For me, his only huge mistake was A. Kostitsyn on such a good year and with such an early pick.