Training camp

[RGY]

The same playoffs where the coach benched Kakko in the last game so he could put us in a worse position to get a win?

I'm honestly ok with PP1. I just want the kid line to get more minutes 5v5.

I don’t disagree, benching Kakko and playing Strome was a mistake. Strome had no business playing.

But with all the success the team had last year, Gallant’s 1st season, the culture and identity change, Drury’s 1st season, that one decision in Game 6 doesn’t define Gallant’s tenure here. Let’s see how this season goes. There was a lot of marked improvement last season.

I also agree the Kid line needs to get more 5v5 minutes. I think they are more than ready for that next step, and it would also take some of the weight off of the veterans over the course of a long season.

I will also say I absolutely did not want Strome on PP1 last season. It is well known around here how much I disliked Strome with his careless and irresponsible play. I wanted to see Lafreniere on PP1. BUT, what Gallant and staff decided to do worked. As @SA16 has explained repeatedly, they have a system. And that system runs much through Zibanejad and his heavy shot. It worked. Their PP was outstanding. It was outstanding in the Playoffs too. Its hard for me to be critical of Gallant’s decisions around the PP just because some fans are, as one other poster put it, worried about our prospects being labeled “busts” on the main boards. I dont care about the main boards, islanders fans, etc, outside perception. The kids are moving in the right direction. They are all competitors, especially Lafreniere. I don’t see a player like Lafreniere letting something like PP time get in his head and stunt development. I just don’t. Don’t see it with Chytil or Kakko either.

 

[Lone Ranger]

I'm willing to give GG the benefit of the doubt on the Kid Line. He may genuinely believe it is better for all three of them to play together, especially Laf staying at his preferred wing, than otherwise. The key for me will be ice time. If he gives the kids a fair shake, I have no problem with them staying together.

 

[SA16]

You disagree that Blais has less career points than Vesey has goals in only one less season in the NHL? That's what the numbers say. Blame injuries or anything else, facts remain.


You don't think what? Look at the numbers.

I think he disagrees with comparing the raw career stats of a guy with 422 games played to a guy with 133. That’s just me though.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

I LOVE the kid line, absolutely love it!….BUT, give them top 6 ES minutes!!!!!!!

Sorry but bread line or Kreider line needs to get 3rd line ES minutes..

 

[Clark Kellogg]

Blais has been in the NHL for 5 years. He has 39 career points. Vesey has been in the NHL for 6 years. He has 135 points. Vesey has more goals than Blais has points. Vesey has more points than Blais has games played. In one more season.

Vesey is exponentially better than Blais.

Wait, is this a strat-o-matic hockey discussion board?
I’ve been using real life logic all this time.
Ask 32 G.M.s if they would trade Away Blais for Vesey straight up and all 32 will give you the same answer. This is why Vesey is on a PTO.
Vesey has looked average at best competing against 20 year-olds and AHL players.
He’s 29 and getting a look most likely as a favor to the agent who represents Trocheck or some Alumni allegiance.

 

[BBKers]

Jimmy Vesey has looked like an NHLer in this camp - most certainly. Not a big fan of him - but the eyetest aligns with most everything and against camp opposition he has been better than average. Whatever that implies. He is however someone - if on a good team - that would/should be placed on the lower lines/used as a spare - only to be moved up occasionally when circumstances make this inevitable (injuries, trades, benchings...). He does not belong on the top lines nor will he be there when push comes to shove in May. As to him blocking the development of our 4-5 high ceiling kids - this might be true. It rests on GGs coming decisions.

I think one huge and silented intangible here is salary cap. You can be certain that Brass wants to keep this team together and watch it grow together to be a competitive fired-up powerhouse for years to come. By not giving the kids too predominant roles to pad their stats and pay a premium earlier on the ELC, they have chosen a different path. This is playing with fire and could backfire - but it could also be a bullseye precision hit. The salary cap will go up one year too late to make this entirely possible, but it will be very interesting to see how it pans out 4 sure...

 

[pld459666]

Gallant is a very good culture builder.

Gallant is a very poor tactician.

Both of those things can be true.

Everyone and their mother's knew this.

And we still hired him

 

[Off Sides]

What's the likely contract incoming for Vesey?

When I suggested they sign him a couple days ago I was thinking like 750K, now that he is on their top line, who knows.

I say that somewhat sarcastically, mostly because of the push back I received when I suggested it, yet it gives him more and more leverage to ask for more than that as he gets closer towards being seen as someone who could move up the depth chart, especially should some other team be willing to make him a higher offer to sign with them instead.

 

[Off Sides]

I don’t disagree, benching Kakko and playing Strome was a mistake. Strome had no business playing.

But with all the success the team had last year, Gallant’s 1st season, the culture and identity change, Drury’s 1st season, that one decision in Game 6 doesn’t define Gallant’s tenure here. Let’s see how this season goes. There was a lot of marked improvement last season.

I also agree the Kid line needs to get more 5v5 minutes. I think they are more than ready for that next step, and it would also take some of the weight off of the veterans over the course of a long season.

I will also say I absolutely did not want Strome on PP1 last season. It is well known around here how much I disliked Strome with his careless and irresponsible play. I wanted to see Lafreniere on PP1. BUT, what Gallant and staff decided to do worked. As @SA16 has explained repeatedly, they have a system. And that system runs much through Zibanejad and his heavy shot. It worked. Their PP was outstanding. It was outstanding in the Playoffs too. Its hard for me to be critical of Gallant’s decisions around the PP just because some fans are, as one other poster put it, worried about our prospects being labeled “busts” on the main boards. I dont care about the main boards, islanders fans, etc, outside perception. The kids are moving in the right direction. They are all competitors, especially Lafreniere. I don’t see a player like Lafreniere letting something like PP time get in his head and stunt development. I just don’t. Don’t see it with Chytil or Kakko either.

Much of the PP and having the kids on it assumes they would be highly productive on it.

I am sure they'd get some extra production, yet it's quite plausible that is more like in the plus 10-15 point range than it is in the plus 20-35 point range. Strome had 14 PP points last year.

 

[BroadwayBlues]

The Kreider Mika Laff line was pretty good prior to the Vatrano trade.

 

[will1066]

When I suggested they sign him a couple days ago I was thinking like 750K, now that he is on their top line, who knows.

I say that somewhat sarcastically, mostly because of the push back I received when I suggested it, yet it gives him more and more leverage to ask for more than that as he gets closer towards being seen as someone who could move up the depth chart, especially should some other team be willing to make him a higher offer to sign with them instead.

I just think that because of his good showing in camp and preseason and because he has some history here, the FO might give him something around a mil, unfortunately eating what cap space remains.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

People are all worked up about Vesey on line 1 in a preseason game not everyone is dressed for is just what i expect here.

The lines are gonna be
Kreider zib blais
Panarin trochek Kravtsov
Laf chytil kakko
Vesey/carpenter/Goodrow/Reaves/Hunt

 

[Off Sides]

I just think that because of his good showing in camp and preseason and because he has some history here, the FO might give him something around a mil, unfortunately eating what cap space remains.

If they sign him to more than 750K it's because they waited to sign him.

A 750K contract offer days ago when he was playing/practicing on the 4th line was an offer he could either take and hope for the best, or not and be cut.

A contract offer now that he and the Rangers have figured out he's as good or a better option to move up the lines than any of Goodrow 3.64M, Blais 1.52M, Hunt 762K, Carpenter 750K, Gauthier 800k, Brodzinski 762K, now might cost more.

 

[Fitzy]

Everyone and their mother's knew this.

And we still hired him

The options were literally Gallant or a guy who bet on games he was involved in.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

I think he disagrees with comparing the raw career stats of a guy with 422 games played to a guy with 133. That’s just me though.

There's a reason one player has that many more games played in only one more season of time spent in the league. And it's more than just injuries. It's because one of them is actually a pretty good hockey player, adapted, and made himself serviceable. The other is a scrub whose talent level was severely misjudged in a trade for one of our best forwards, so now to save face is being forced in over his head.

 

[Off Sides]

Blias missed basically all of last year with a major injury. While eventually he may get his game back to whatever it was, it's possible he is going to be pretty out of sync for a while.

 

[SA16]

There's a reason one player has that many more games played in only one more season of time spent in the league. And it's more than just injuries. It's because one of them is actually a pretty good hockey player, adapted, and made himself serviceable. The other is a scrub whose talent level was severely misjudged in a trade for one of our best forwards, so now to save face is being forced in over his head.

No. It's injuries. And it's not "one more season." Blais first full year in the NHL was 19-20 when he was 23 years old. Vesey's first full year in the NHL was 16-17...when he was also 23 years old.

 

[Ola]

That is not exactly true. Up until like 10 years ago early drafted NFL QBs almost always sat for a year, or two, behind some veteran starter. They didn't play at all. Just practiced and watch. Rodgers sat for three full years. It didn't ruin the development of those guys. The only reason it's really changed is because of the salary structure and how there's a ton of value in a cheap QB if he works out so you can spend money on other positions. I assume, somehow, hockey is different?

I watch at results and then back track, why did this kid stand still or develop really poorly why that guy did better. And have done it for a couple of decades.

From there I analyze what I see and try to find explanations for it.

There is a very clear trend that kids rushed to the NHL at 18 and then only played in a minor role for a 2-3+ years develop tremendously poorly.

How can that be? Look, hockey is about speed. I don’t know about basketball for football, but the big challenge in hockey is to do what is simple in theory on the ice at the speed the game is played in the NHL. How do you learn to do that? Obviously, it’s hard to create the same environment in practice and in any event it’s not done in the NHL.

 

[McRanger92]

Everyone and their mother's knew this.

And we still hired him

Well the culture was dogshit when he got here and they just went to the conference final, so job well done so far

 

[SA16]

I watch at results and then back track, why did this kid stand still or develop really poorly why that guy did better. And have done it for a couple of decades.

From there I analyze what I see and try to find explanations for it.

There is a very clear trend that kids rushed to the NHL at 18 and then only played in a minor role for a 2-3+ years develop tremendously poorly.

How can that be? Look, hockey is about speed. I don’t know about basketball for football, but the big challenge in hockey is to do what is simple in theory on the ice at the speed the game is played in the NHL. How do you learn to do that? Obviously, it’s hard to create the same environment in practice and in any event it’s not done in the NHL.

There is no way there is an adequate sample size for that as very few 18 year olds even play in the NHL and it's almost exclusively number 1 or 2 overall picks.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

No. It's injuries. And it's not "one more season." Blais first full year in the NHL was 19-20 when he was 23 years old. Vesey's first full year in the NHL was 16-17...when he was also 23 years old.

In Vesey's first year in the league he scored one less goal than Blais has in his career. And then in Vesey's second season scored more goals than Blais has in his entire career. And then in his third year Vesey scored more goals than Blais has in his entire career. And then the next season scored more than Blais' career high.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[TGWL]

I have a question about the rule about Othmann can’t be sent down to AHL. why can’t the NHLPA and other leagues try to change the rule? If the player is turning 20 between September to before the NHLallstar break mid January, you should be able to play in the minors. Othmann turns 20 in January, by this rule you should be able to play in the AHL. Think of the all good development this players would get by this rule. I think the NHLPA needs to fix this. Othmann needs to play more against pros.

That date range seems awfully specific to get Othmann in the AHL.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I don’t disagree, benching Kakko and playing Strome was a mistake. Strome had no business playing.

But with all the success the team had last year, Gallant’s 1st season, the culture and identity change, Drury’s 1st season, that one decision in Game 6 doesn’t define Gallant’s tenure here. Let’s see how this season goes. There was a lot of marked improvement last season.

I also agree the Kid line needs to get more 5v5 minutes. I think they are more than ready for that next step, and it would also take some of the weight off of the veterans over the course of a long season.

I will also say I absolutely did not want Strome on PP1 last season. It is well known around here how much I disliked Strome with his careless and irresponsible play. I wanted to see Lafreniere on PP1. BUT, what Gallant and staff decided to do worked. As @SA16 has explained repeatedly, they have a system. And that system runs much through Zibanejad and his heavy shot. It worked. Their PP was outstanding. It was outstanding in the Playoffs too. Its hard for me to be critical of Gallant’s decisions around the PP just because some fans are, as one other poster put it, worried about our prospects being labeled “busts” on the main boards. I dont care about the main boards, islanders fans, etc, outside perception. The kids are moving in the right direction. They are all competitors, especially Lafreniere. I don’t see a player like Lafreniere letting something like PP time get in his head and stunt development. I just don’t. Don’t see it with Chytil or Kakko either.

This is IMO where the big disconnect is.

I give absolutely zero shits about what anyone says or thinks about the Rangers players on the internet or at the bar.

I give a shit about the NYR winning another Cup before I die.

Not going to continue to rehash a conversation this board has had 1000x besides to say that the path of hoping that somehow, "this is the year" that Panarin, Zibanejad, and Kreider will lead this team to the promised land seems incredibly unlikely to me.

Yet, the entire organization lines up behind this approach, because of hockey culture i.e. deference to veterans and organizational culture i.e. deference to the right now. As well as the fact that coaches and GMs have a shorter "investment horizon" understandably due to wanting to keep their job than we as fans do.

With relatively brief exceptions (relative to the rest of the league), deferring to the right now is all the Rangers have ever done and as a result, despite their financial advantages, they are one of the worst franchises in the league at producing elite offensive players and winning Stanley Cups.

-------

All that said, despite my comical overreaction, I'm not actually that fired up about this. All of the decisions made to date, if they even stick, mostly make sense in a short term vacuum.

It's the implications for the medium term that really get under my skin, but this writing has been on the wall basically since the 2019 offseason, so not exactly news. It's the Rangers culture, it's who they are.

 

[bhamill]

Blais has been in the NHL for 5 years. He has 39 career points. Vesey has been in the NHL for 6 years. He has 135 points. Vesey has more goals than Blais has points. Vesey has more points than Blais has games played. In one more season.

Vesey is exponentially better than Blais.

Vesey is exponentially better at staying healthy than Blais. Blais is exponentially better at playing a physical game than Vesey. Hits a a WAY higher rate. Effectively Blais has scored at approximately a .3 ppg pace. Vesey has scored at approximately a .3 ppg pace. Vesey is a career -63. Blais a career +1. Blais has won a Stanley Cup, and was a contributor on the run.
Vesey is NOT exponentially better than Blais. In fact if they are both available to play, Blais is the better player overall IMO.

 

[Psycho for Perreault]

Blais is better than Vesey. Not really debatable. BUT, on line 1 they will both stick out for bad reasons. On line 4, Blais will excel. I wish we didn't have Vesey on line 1, but I don't want Blais wasted there.