News Article: Training camp starts. Camp discussion

[Drivesaitl]

The Oilers had the highest scorer in the league - how’d that work out

?!?

You were the one citing that Benson was getting zero help with Vancouver Giants. I respond that he was playing with a 61 goal scorer, 2nd highest goals scored total in the league. You respond with some point, I'm not sure what.

Fact of the matter is Benson couldn't score much even at WHL level and doesn't seem to be any wizard as a playmaker either. Fact of the matter is he had help. One of the best guns in the NHL, which if anything contributed to his points total and assists.

I'm not saying anything about the quality of the Vancouver Giants, I'm saying something about the quality Benson had to play with. Which refutes your point.

 

[Drivesaitl]

He really does always breathe like that though.

Exactly. really does. People haven't noticed it. Its hard not to notice.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I'm not saying Benson is going to skip to the front of the line and play beside Mcdavid this season either (although the competition isn't massive on this team considering the winger depth out there).

Personally I just think he has very high upside and he can reach that IF he stays healthy.

This is a player that's basically been stuck in limbo but he's equivalent to a top 10-15 pick in the draft. Those players have 1st line/top 6 potential... but obviously they may not reach that because a LOT can happen to derail their careers (such as constant injuries).

With Benson... nothing is missing except a healthy body but obviously that's a huge factor in making it at the NHL level. If you can't stay healthy you'll slowly drift away into "never-was" land.

I think he does well this season in Bakersfield and likely gets a call-up at some stage when injuries hit.

Around 50% of 3 seasons of development is missing. Its never easy to replace all those lost games through serial injuries. Like I say it usually sidelines careers of non elite players and he's quite clearly non elite. He's not been elite anytime since around 16 apparently.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

?!?

You were the one citing that Benson was getting zero help with Vancouver Giants. I respond that he was playing with a 61 goal scorer, 2nd highest goals scored total in the league. You respond with some point, I'm not sure what.

Fact of the matter is Benson couldn't score much even at WHL level and doesn't seem to be any wizard as a playmaker either. Fact of the matter is he had help. One of the best guns in the NHL, which if anything contributed to his points total and assists.

I'm not saying anything about the quality of the Vancouver Giants, I'm saying something about the quality Benson had to play with. Which refutes your point.

You know many teams have TWO good players for a forward to play with. Much like the Oilers, the Giants has a couple of studs and absolutely diddly squat else. Without Benson and Ronning the Giants might not have won ten games.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You know many teams have TWO good players for a forward to play with. Much like the Oilers, the Giants has a couple of studs and absolutely diddly squat else. Without Benson and Ronning the Giants might not have won ten games.

To clarify I had stated that even when healthy, this past season, Benson production was subpar. Nothing close to elite, even in WHL. You responded that he had nothing to work with in Vancouver. I replied he had the 2nd best goal scorer in the league to work with.

How about whatever you were selling was wrong.

 

[nexttothemoon]

Around 50% of 3 seasons of development is missing. Its never easy to replace all those lost games through serial injuries. Like I say it usually sidelines careers of non elite players and he's quite clearly non elite. He's not been elite anytime since around 16 apparently.

He's elite... you just can't tell because he's had so many injuries that are masking that eliteness.

He's like a Kintsugi piece on the team... broken but (hopefully) repaired and better for it as he's already developed a determination and resilience because of the difficulties he's already been through in his young career.

 

[Drivesaitl]

He's elite... you just can't tell because he's had so many injuries that are masking that eliteness.

He's like a Kintsugi piece on the team... broken but (hopefully) repaired and better for it as he's already developed a determination and resilience because of the difficulties he's already been through in his young career.

haha, always love your posts. Whats a Kintsugi?

I hope you're right. We need every potential topsix piece we can get.

edit

broken porcelain?! Damn you be putting curse on Benson..

 

[nexttothemoon]

haha, always love your posts. Whats a Kintsugi?

I hope you're right. We need every potential topsix piece we can get.

edit

broken porcelain?! Damn you be putting curse on Benson..

Kintsugi: the art of precious scars - LifeGate

Gets even better with scars and breaks.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

To clarify I had stated that even when healthy, this past season, Benson production was subpar. Nothing close to elite, even in WHL. You responded that he had nothing to work with in Vancouver. I replied he had the 2nd best goal scorer in the league to work with.

How about whatever you were selling was wrong.

How about as usual you’re needlessly confrontational on top of being outright wrong?

Vancouver was a miserable team outside of Ronning/Benson. He had one player to work with. Comparables like Heponiemi had two at any given time. How is this so hard to see?

 

[Still DRAI]

Is it 88 now? It was 80 yesterday. HF-inflation or new (credible) reports? You don't think a team will pay $11M a year for Karlsson? Really?

Ottawa could have offered Karlsson 8x15 and he would have turned it down, in my opinion.

Though the details haven't been resolved (and we might never know who was at fault or more to blame), it's pretty clear that Karlsson and Hoffman had some kind of major dispute that made both unwilling to play on the same team as the other, and Ottawa dithered and failed to address the situation in time. When you account for the personal tragedy the Karlssons experienced, having an unsupportive (if not actively toxic) workplace was untenable.

On top of that, Melnyk is easily the worst owner in the NHL, a cheapskate who refuses to surround Karlsson with any other elite talent, with Dorion as his yes-man. It's obvious that the Sens are a sinking ship, look at Stone pushing for a 1 year deal which takes him to UFA status.

This is all just ranting, since we can't afford to sign him even if he hits free agency, but my main point is that it's pretty difficult to look at what Karlsson may or may not have turned down from Ottawa as any indicator of what he'd sign for with a team he actually wanted to play for.

 

[Dempsey]

I'm not saying Benson is going to skip to the front of the line and play beside Mcdavid this season either (although the competition isn't massive on this team considering the winger depth out there).

Personally I just think he has very high upside and he can reach that IF he stays healthy.

This is a player that's basically been stuck in limbo but he's equivalent to a top 10-15 pick in the draft. Those players have 1st line/top 6 potential... but obviously they may not reach that because a LOT can happen to derail their careers (such as constant injuries).

With Benson... nothing is missing except a healthy body but obviously that's a huge factor in making it at the NHL level. If you can't stay healthy you'll slowly drift away into "never-was" land.

I think he does well this season in Bakersfield and likely gets a call-up at some stage when injuries hit.

No, he's not. Not even close. Should I post a 2016 re-draft that was done recently and we'll compare Benson to the players listed in the 10-15 range? Or do you mean on draft day he could have been 10 - 15 if not for injuries? Because that would be irrelevant now.

 

[Drivesaitl]

How about as usual you’re needlessly confrontational on top of being outright wrong?

Vancouver was a miserable team outside of Ronning/Benson. He had one player to work with. Comparables like Heponiemi had two at any given time. How is this so hard to see?

Oh wait, whats this, you started saying he had NOBODY to work with. So thank you for conceding..You've already admitted your statement was false.

The discussion has NOTHING to do with the overall team he played on, its the unit, and line he played one. Right? You said Benson had no help which is absolutely laughable considering he had a 61 goal scorer on one side and a PPG player on the other. Of these, Benson didn't even distinguish.

Also, Heponeimi had twice as many pts and as a younger player in a new country learning his way. Yeah I would say that kid knocked it out of the ballpark with over 2PPG.

Benson, with the advantage of being Western Canadian did not even excel in the WHL. That's a fact jack.

 

[LTIR]

What's up with this Benson vs Rattie shitstorm.. both are fringe NHLers ..

 

[SupremeTeam16]

I've watched quite a bit of Benson and while he does have the skill and skating he isn't an offensive dynamo, that's not his game. He plays the way they do in the league today. Effective and reliable in all 3 zones he's a very heady player. Like I said he likely won't be some offensive dynamo in the NHL but he'll be a very complete player without any glaring weaknesses. I see him being a cheap, reliable player who will give you consistent secondary scoring but has the ability to play up in the lineup if needed.

 

[LTIR]

McLeod drafted 2 yrs after Benson around the same spot in the draft already seems on par with Benson.
He could be giving Puljujarvi and Yamamoto a tough competition in main camp. Fun few days ahead for sure.. instead of bashing our own players how about we cheer for them all. The team is big enough to play both Rattie and Benson.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Oh wait, whats this, you started saying he had NOBODY to work with. So thank you for conceding..You've already admitted your statement was false.

The discussion has NOTHING to do with the overall team he played on, its the unit, and line he played one. Right? You said Benson had no help which is absolutely laughable considering he had a 61 goal scorer on one side and a PPG player on the other. Of these, Benson didn't even distinguish.

Also, Heponeimi had twice as many pts and as a younger player in a new country learning his way. Yeah I would say that kid knocked it out of the ballpark with over 2PPG.

Benson, with the advantage of being Western Canadian did not even excel in the WHL. That's a fact jack.

Firstly, that’s not what I said. I said very little. Having one pretty good player to play with out of an entire team is in fact very little help. The Giants were the 2017-18 Canadiens - a couple good wingers and diddly squat else.

Second, heponiemi played on an absolute powerhouse. The situations are entirely different.

Third, Benson did fine. You want gaudy totals Benson isn’t your guy, but he had a good regular season and a strong playoffs. I don’t know why any kind of positivity rustles your jimmies so much, but go shake your fist at a different cloud. I’m too tired for your chicken little bullshit this evening.

 

[Cloned]

On a positive note to unite everyone, EA released Kevin Lowe as an Oilers Alumni HUT card today. Proud to say I'm rocking the Coffey - Lowe pairing.

(btw, he's rated the same as Hedman...)

 

[Drivesaitl]

Firstly, that’s not what I said. I said very little. Having one pretty good player to play with out of an entire team is in fact very little help. The Giants were the 2017-18 Canadiens - a couple good wingers and diddly squat else.

Second, heponiemi played on an absolute powerhouse. The situations are entirely different.

Third, Benson did fine. You want gaudy totals Benson isn’t your guy, but he had a good regular season and a strong playoffs. I don’t know why any kind of positivity rustles your jimmies so much, but go shake your fist at a different cloud. I’m too tired for your chicken little bull**** this evening.

You don't even remember your initial statement;

"You know he had very little help in Vancouver, right? They had two players over 20 goals. In the WHL. That’s pathetic. How pathetic? The horrendous Oil Kings had three. Four if you include Koch."

I must have forgot that having a 61 goal scorer on his wing is known as "very little help" or "pathetic help" silly me.

You were wrong, so what, it happens. own it.

no need to get angry because you were wrong.

 

[nexttothemoon]

Rattie draft year stats: 1.179 pts/game on a team that scored 4.208 goals/game = 28.0% offensive participation rate.

draft+one year: 1.754 pts/game on a team that scored 4.556 goals/game = 38.5% offensive participation rate.

draft+two year: 1.774 pts/game on a team that scored 4.639 goals/game = 38.2% offensive participation rate



Benson draft year stats: .933 pts/game on a team that scored 2.764 goals/game = 33.8% offensive participation rate.

draft+one year: 1.273 pts/game on a team that scored 2.542 goals/game = 50.1% offensive participation rate.

draft+two year: 1.190 pts/game on a team that scored 3.236 goals/game = 36.8% offensive participation rate



McLeod draft year stats: 1.029 pts/game on a team that scored 3.691 goals/game = 27.9% offensive participation rate. Slightly better league as the OHL is known to be slightly better competition than the WHL.

McLeod Sept birthday... biggest size of the 3.
Benson March birthday... middle sized of the 3.
Rattie Feb birthday... smallest size of the 3.

Rattie played on much better offensive teams in his draft year and draft +1/+2 years than Benson.


Based on just their draft year stats, size and birthdates I would rank them like this if I were drafting them all in the same theoretical draft vs this 2018 draft year prospect pool:

Benson ~10th
Rattie ~40th
McLeod ~40th

 

[Still DRAI]

IMO, all 3 of Rattie, Benson, and McLeod are in similar boats in the sense that all 3 are mid-first round level talents that fell due to various issues. Benson's injury history, Rattie's size and questionable defensive ability, and McLeod's rumored attitude issues.

Mid-first forwards are, again IMO, typically either boom or bust, or reliable bottom six options. Again, I think all 3 are in the first category.

 

[Cloned]

IMO, all 3 of Rattie, Benson, and McLeod are in similar boats in the sense that all 3 are mid-first round level talents that fell due to various issues. Benson's injury history, Rattie's size and questionable defensive ability, and McLeod's rumored attitude issues.

Mid-first forwards are, again IMO, typically either boom or bust, or reliable bottom six options. Again, I think all 3 are in the first category.

Rattie fell due to questionable skating and hockey sense. People just weren't sure he could find the time and space to use his shot at the NHL level.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Rattie fell due to questionable skating and hockey sense. People just weren't sure he could find the time and space to use his shot at the NHL level.

I don't think hockey sense was ever an issue. I think it was physical ability to get himself there. You can see his intelligence and sense as a player when he was playing good last year.

 

[Cloned]

I don't think hockey sense was ever an issue. I think it was physical ability to get himself there. You can see his intelligence and sense as a player when he was playing good last year.

If he had that shot with good hockey sense, he would have been drafted higher, even with questionable skating. IMO anyways.

 

[CycloneSweep]

If he had that shot with good hockey sense, he would have been drafted higher, even with questionable skating. IMO anyways.

We was drafted right outside the 1st round.

https://thehockeywriters.com/the-ne...l-2011-draft-prospect-profile-‘rattie’-to-go/

That's one scouting report on him.

Guys like him go early second round because they have skill but with the smaller size and the rough skating they are more of a project and his hockey sense and ability had him as more of a second liner prediction anyway and most of the time you go for high boom prospects in the first.

 

[Cloned]

We was drafted right outside the 1st round.

https://thehockeywriters.com/the-ne...l-2011-draft-prospect-profile-‘rattie’-to-go/

That's one scouting report on him.

Guys like him go early second round because they have skill but with the smaller size and the rough skating they are more of a project and his hockey sense and ability had him as more of a second liner prediction anyway and most of the time you go for high boom prospects in the first.

I know where he was drafted. I think if he had better hockey sense he would have gone mid-first round.