Training Camp continued

[Maplebeasts]

They tried to trade Simmons and Clifford and couldn't, so they were both waived.

So basically you're saying we should have traded NAK for either a pick or someone we could send down, for the sake of having Robertson play one game?

If Tavares is indeed healthy then Robertson wont be up for a while.

 

[cyris]

If Tavares is indeed healthy then Robertson wont be up for a while.

I don’t know if that is true. He is probably the first injury call up up front. And if we manage to go make it 3 weeks without anyone getting hurt a trade has to happen to get Liljegren off LTIR.
It’s not like he is going to spend half the season in the AHL.

 

[Puckstuff]

I would have had both make the team, trade/waive NAK, trade/waive Simmonds and Clifford for whatever gets their contract slot off our books and pushed Engvall down to line 4 so they're more of a threat to score. It makes no sense to have your top prospect who outplayed the vast majority of the team not make it so you can keep like 5 fourth line guys in the organization.

Bunting-Matthews-Marner
Robertson-JT-Nylander
Kerfoot-Jarnkrok-Malgin
ZAR-Kampf-Engvall

I think they see Aube-Kubel as a defensive winger with ZAR and Kampf. That line serves as a defensive shutdown line so I get why they would only want only one of Robertson or Malgin.

 

[Puckstuff]

I don’t know if that is true. He is probably the first injury call up up front. And if we manage to go make it 3 weeks without anyone getting hurt a trade has to happen to get Liljegren off LTIR.
It’s not like he is going to spend half the season in the AHL.

The momentum will be hindered. Momentum builds when you continue playing and get better. He can’t do that now. Robertson was our highest ascending player in camp so the timing of this is terrible. If Robertson was given the same opportunities Tavares gets of playing with Marner/Nylander, lots of minutes, P.P time etc I think he would put up 65-70 points. I think people underrate the importance of compounding effects and momentum. If given the right opportunity, with momentum he could score 70. By keeping him on the Marlies (if this is an extended thing) then bringing him up 20 games to fill a bottom 6 role, well he may not even hit 20. My biggest fear is Keefe will call up Robertson and put him with Tavares or the 4th line. I legitimately think Tavares Makes Nylander and Robertson worse. I think my biggest concern with this whole situation is I don’t trust Keefe to get Robertson the right opportunities. He has no ability to recognize what player combinations work outside of the obvious in Matthews and Marner.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I wouldn't mind giving a line like that a chance, easy matchups and offensive zone starts obviously but if we give JT some big, cycling, defensively sound wingers and maximize his boards game it seems like a good way to play to everybody's strengths rather than trying to force JT and WN together

I honestly think those two make each other worse since there strengths are so opposed

They are just missing a glue guy.

They need a guy who can handle some of the dirty work but still has enough skill and skating ability to keep up. Kerfoot is not a great fit for the dirty work, but he is just overall a solid and smart player so he was still able to find some level of success on that line. Ritchie and others struggled to keep up.

A combo that actually worked was when Galchenyuk was on that line. Galchenyuk was not even all that great of a player overall, but he was able to be the guy which allowed Nylander and Tavares to both do their things. Drove the net hard and fought for pucks, which meant Tavares didn't need to do it all the time, but was able to be another option for Nylander on the rush as well. If you could find a better version of Galchenyuk to put on that line, you have a very strong line.

The line failed when Tavares was mostly just parked in front of the net and Nylander/Kerfoot struggled to get the puck to him or do anything else positive with it. The line worked when Tavares was more involved with the puck and was playing in space more often.

Malgin does have a nose for the net, and has a little bit more dynamic offensive skill than Kerfoot, so maybe it works. At the very least there will be a lot of puck movement.

 

[Puckstuff]

They are just missing a glue guy.

What the line needs is a guy who can handle some of the dirty

We don't have that player and I don't think Malgin will unlock anything.

Robertson-Kerfoot-Nylander seems to work and Robertson-Nylander-Malgin may work.

Nylander, Kerfoot and Robertson excel together so much because they can all make quick plays on the rush. The last game where Robertson had 3 assists was a perfect example of that. That line just works. How many times has Tavares put Nylander offside as Nylander comes flying down on the rush? Tavares just has no rush game. The Robbie-Kerf-Nylander line already worked, why don't we just keep using it?

Tavares needs guys who can cycle the puck and find him in the slot playing down low for a wrister at the hashmarks or in the slot. That's how Tavares scores. Jarnkrok might be a good winger for him.

 

[Jojalu]

Except that's not how all of this works. If you had saved $400K combined on four deals three years ago it would have been absorbed already...maybe Giordano takes a little more money? Maybe ZAR signs for $1.1M in the off-season instead of the exact amount to get us under the cap. Maybe Brodie asks for another $250K when we sign him? Samsonov? Bunting?

This team could be under the cap and have a 23-man roster if they simply traded Kerfoot. They are choosing to be tight now and not trade away (or lose on waivers) depth they will need when injuries come (and open up cap space).

Now, maybe we are healthy when JT and Liljgren come back...at that point we have played some games...maybe we feel OK yoyo-ing Robertson until injuries hit? Maybe the kids all look great and we deal Kerfoot and/or Kerfoot to someone who lost a D or an F?

I don't think this is about having a 12th forward in Game 1 against the Canadiens...it's a long season and I think this structure is taking the long-term view.

Right!

Not to mention all those contracts were signed well before the pandemic hit and the league got stuck in a flat cap.

After the league signed their new TV deal and brought in sports betting, all GM'S were operating under the assumption the cap would be 90 million by now.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I disagree with the idea of Robertson going down because it's been such a rare occurrence for him to find his groove in a Toronto Maple Leaf uniform.

Maybe that has to do with him being 20 or younger in every other opportunity and not an indication that he has to be coddled?

Robertson isn't just suddenly going to to lose all of the abilities that he's showcased because he goes down for a game.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Except that's not how all of this works. If you had saved $400K combined on four deals three years ago it would have been absorbed already...maybe Giordano takes a little more money? Maybe ZAR signs for $1.1M in the off-season instead of the exact amount to get us under the cap. Maybe Brodie asks for another $250K when we sign him? Samsonov? Bunting?

This team could be under the cap and have a 23-man roster if they simply traded Kerfoot. They are choosing to be tight now and not trade away (or lose on waivers) depth they will need when injuries come (and open up cap space).

Now, maybe we are healthy when JT and Liljgren come back...at that point we have played some games...maybe we feel OK yoyo-ing Robertson until injuries hit? Maybe the kids all look great and we deal Kerfoot and/or Kerfoot to someone who lost a D or an F?

I don't think this is about having a 12th forward in Game 1 against the Canadiens...it's a long season and I think this structure is taking the long-term view.

Of course that is how it works. Not all teams find themselves 1 player under, and $4 under the cap. Dubas puts us in this situation by choice and now pays the price. He is a players manager.
True about Kerfoot, if he is tradable? But past bargaining has created the need for this.
Covid changed the scene, he failed to respond quickly.
Hope it works out.

 

[conFABulator]

The momentum will be hindered. Momentum builds when you continue playing and get better. He can’t do that now. Robertson was our highest ascending player in camp so the timing of this is terrible. If Robertson was given the same opportunities Tavares gets of playing with Marner/Nylander, lots of minutes, P.P time etc I think he would put up 65-70 points. I think people underrate the importance of compounding effects and momentum. If given the right opportunity, with momentum he could score 70. By keeping him on the Marlies (if this is an extended thing) then bringing him up 20 games to fill a bottom 6 role, well he may not even hit 20. My biggest fear is Keefe will call up Robertson and put him with Tavares or the 4th line. I legitimately think Tavares Makes Nylander and Robertson worse. I think my biggest concern with this whole situation is I don’t trust Keefe to get Robertson the right opportunities. He has no ability to recognize what player combinations work outside of the obvious in Matthews and Marner.

I like Robertson and I want him to get a chance this year, but I think we need to keep things in perspective here.

We had six forwards in the top 126 forwards in the NHL last year, none of them were Robertson. We can score, scoring is not our problem and this is what Robertson brings.

What we are trying to improve upon is a bottom six that has a purpose and contributes in the regular season and in the playoffs. This is where Jarnkrok, Kampf, NAK, ZAR, Engvall and Kerfoot come in.

There is really only one spot up for grabs -- second line wing. This comes down to Malgin or Robertson. Both had strong camps and are young and cheap. If we take Robertson we likely lose Malgin on waivers...so, for Game 1 Malgin is the obvious choice. It is asset management.

If Tavares plays, we are not a man short...if he is still out we play down a man...not a big deal once in a while to keep the organizational depth. If Tavares is our, Kerfoot moves up to the top six. He is the only we should thinking about.

His cap hit is what prevents us from having a 22 or 23 man roster, but he is valued by the organization. He can play top 6 or bottom 6, center or wing and can PK and PP.

However, he is on a movable contract and a UFA at the end of the year. Would we be better served to move him and replace that flexibility with a few guys combined? I think that is worth considering, for sure, but also a risk...what if the kids don't pan out once the regular season starts? What if we lose a top 6 centre for an extended period? Maybe the plan is to see what Malgin and Robertson can do? To see if Nylander can play centre? To see if JT comes back healthy and effective? If Steeves and / or Holmberg show they are worth a call up?

Then we still probably only have ONE roster spot for either Robertson or Malgin. If we trade Kerfoot (for picks):

Bunting Matthews Marner
Robertson/Malgin Tavares Nylander
Engvall Holmberg/Steeves Jarnkrok
NAK Kampf ZAR

Is this lineup stronger than the one with Kerfoot on the third line? Probably not, but it does give us more NHL depth and flexibility.

I think this is a waiting game and see what the first three weeks bring health wise.

 

[Nineteen67]

Tavares not being on IR doesn't mean he'll be ready for game 1. The only thing IR does is clear a roster spot. The Leafs already have 3 of those available if they needed one, it's cap space they need and that's only opened via LTIR but Tavares won't be out that long(10 games, 24 days)



I know someone else already said LTIR doesn't accrue, but the reason Robertson "fits" after a game is not because he actually fits. He'll put us over the cap but the rules allow you to do that using an emergency recall with very specific restrictions(recalled players cap hit must be less than 850k) once you play 1 game with less than 18 skaters

I think You can have 18 skaters available, but if you only 11 forwards or 5 D you can use the emergency recall for up to 9 games.

 

[Nineteen67]

When is the last time Robertson played a full season?

A season where he wasn't injured?

Flipping out because he might miss some NHL games when he doesn't play a full season anyway.

That’s a good point. He is up to 185 lbs, which could help.

 

[Nineteen67]

I like Robertson and I want him to get a chance this year, but I think we need to keep things in perspective here.

We had six forwards in the top 126 forwards in the NHL last year, none of them were Robertson. We can score, scoring is not our problem and this is what Robertson brings.

What we are trying to improve upon is a bottom six that has a purpose and contributes in the regular season and in the playoffs. This is where Jarnkrok, Kampf, NAK, ZAR, Engvall and Kerfoot come in.

There is really only one spot up for grabs -- second line wing. This comes down to Malgin or Robertson. Both had strong camps and are young and cheap. If we take Robertson we likely lose Malgin on waivers...so, for Game 1 Malgin is the obvious choice. It is asset management.

If Tavares plays, we are not a man short...if he is still out we play down a man...not a big deal once in a while to keep the organizational depth. If Tavares is our, Kerfoot moves up to the top six. He is the only we should thinking about.

His cap hit is what prevents us from having a 22 or 23 man roster, but he is valued by the organization. He can play top 6 or bottom 6, center or wing and can PK and PP.

However, he is on a movable contract and a UFA at the end of the year. Would we be better served to move him and replace that flexibility with a few guys combined? I think that is worth considering, for sure, but also a risk...what if the kids don't pan out once the regular season starts? What if we lose a top 6 centre for an extended period? Maybe the plan is to see what Malgin and Robertson can do? To see if Nylander can play centre? To see if JT comes back healthy and effective? If Steeves and / or Holmberg show they are worth a call up?

Then we still probably only have ONE roster spot for either Robertson or Malgin. If we trade Kerfoot (for picks):

Bunting Matthews Marner
Robertson/Malgin Tavares Nylander
Engvall Holmberg/Steeves Jarnkrok
NAK Kampf ZAR

Is this lineup stronger than the one with Kerfoot on the third line? Probably not, but it does give us more NHL depth and flexibility.

I think this is a waiting game and see what the first three weeks bring health wise.

Trading Kerfoot frees up ~ 3.5 million depending on the date , but how many teams have the cap space?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Of course that is how it works. Not all teams find themselves 1 player under, and $4 under the cap. Dubas puts us in this situation by choice and now pays the price. He is a players manager.
True about Kerfoot, if he is tradable? But past bargaining has created the need for this.
Covid changed the scene, he failed to respond quickly.
Hope it works out.

Looks like there's about half a league's worth of players manager types out there?

 

[Puckstuff]

I like Robertson and I want him to get a chance this year, but I think we need to keep things in perspective here.

We had six forwards in the top 126 forwards in the NHL last year, none of them were Robertson. We can score, scoring is not our problem and this is what Robertson brings.

What we are trying to improve upon is a bottom six that has a purpose and contributes in the regular season and in the playoffs. This is where Jarnkrok, Kampf, NAK, ZAR, Engvall and Kerfoot come in.

There is really only one spot up for grabs -- second line wing. This comes down to Malgin or Robertson. Both had strong camps and are young and cheap. If we take Robertson we likely lose Malgin on waivers...so, for Game 1 Malgin is the obvious choice. It is asset management.

If Tavares plays, we are not a man short...if he is still out we play down a man...not a big deal once in a while to keep the organizational depth. If Tavares is our, Kerfoot moves up to the top six. He is the only we should thinking about.

His cap hit is what prevents us from having a 22 or 23 man roster, but he is valued by the organization. He can play top 6 or bottom 6, center or wing and can PK and PP.

However, he is on a movable contract and a UFA at the end of the year. Would we be better served to move him and replace that flexibility with a few guys combined? I think that is worth considering, for sure, but also a risk...what if the kids don't pan out once the regular season starts? What if we lose a top 6 centre for an extended period? Maybe the plan is to see what Malgin and Robertson can do? To see if Nylander can play centre? To see if JT comes back healthy and effective? If Steeves and / or Holmberg show they are worth a call up?

Then we still probably only have ONE roster spot for either Robertson or Malgin. If we trade Kerfoot (for picks):

Bunting Matthews Marner
Robertson/Malgin Tavares Nylander
Engvall Holmberg/Steeves Jarnkrok
NAK Kampf ZAR

Is this lineup stronger than the one with Kerfoot on the third line? Probably not, but it does give us more NHL depth and flexibility.

I think this is a waiting game and see what the first three weeks bring health wise.

The point of asset management is that if your better player gets injured you can call up a replacement. It becomes not worth it when you have to put the better player in the AHL.

The difference between Malgin/Robertson isn't big enough to continue talking about it though so this is the last I will comment on it but there taking the wrong player.

 

[conFABulator]

Trading Kerfoot frees up ~ 3.5 million depending on the date , but how many teams have the cap space?

Any team with the cap space will take him. His real dollars are low and his flexibility (and value at the TDL) make him attractive.

The lack of teams that can fit him in will lower the return for him though, which is why I didn't factor a high return on him as a benefit from trading him.

However, once injuries start showing up it could change things...a contending team that loses a top six forward (and gains the associated LTIR space) might find Kerfoot very attractive... another reason to play the waiting game perhaps.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Looks like there's about half a league's worth of players manager types out there?

There are...they spend to the cap and too many deals with agents. In the end GM have take back bargaining control. The cap system leads to this type of bargaining. GM s are not bargaining experts, just player evaluation experts.
Once you fall pray to the system, it is just luck after that and a little manipulation.
The system was set up because GM over spent, now they are forced to over spend for superstars and punish average players with crumbs left over.
Like I said, the agents set the scale.

 

[supermann_98]

A lot of you guys are being hard on Malgin

The guy went away and improved himself and has desered a place on this team with his preseason performance

Simple as that

Robertson will get his chance, he's one hell of a talent but it won't hurt him to light up the AHL while he waits
In fact that may keep his confidence flowing

Agreed. People ripping on Malgin because they prefer a younger prospect with more upside, the problem is the cap space issue which is a result of a combination of factors, a GM who spent on our RFA's and Tavares like a kid with a gift card at Toys R Us, and a pandemic that cut into league revenues and froze the cap.

I wish Malgin all the best, hope he sticks, hope he scores, and Robertson will go to the Marlies and likely be the 1st man called up when injuries inevitably happen.

One of Kerfoot, Holl, or Engvall will have to go to make room once Liljegren is ready to return. To me Holl is easily the most replaceable, while Kerf and Engvall are both UFA at the end of the year so maybe trade them for futures to make room for Robertson or Knies later in the year when another team inevitably has injury problems.

 

[Havoc]

Not all teams find themselves 1 player under, and $4 under the cap.

I don't understand the issue here. Our cap specialists are able to go full wizard mode on the cap. That's a good thing. You can always make wiggle room by shedding from the bottom up. I like how we have 100% utilization.

The only thing left is to find a good GM to pair with these elite cap specialists. The current flat cap number is more than enough to win with that core so when I see these flat cap excuses pop up, all I see is the GM sucks at building around the core.

 

[DarkKnight]

Agreed. People ripping on Malgin because they prefer a younger prospect with more upside, the problem is the cap space issue which is a result of a combination of factors, a GM who spent on our RFA's and Tavares like a kid with a gift card at Toys R Us, and a pandemic that cut into league revenues and froze the cap.

I wish Malgin all the best, hope he sticks, hope he scores, and Robertson will go to the Marlies and likely be the 1st man called up when injuries inevitably happen.

One of Kerfoot, Holl, or Engvall will have to go to make room once Liljegren is ready to return. To me Holl is easily the most replaceable, while Kerf and Engvall are both UFA at the end of the year so maybe trade them for futures to make room for Robertson or Knies later in the year when another team inevitably has injury problems.

Who’s “ripping” on him? He had a good camp and perhaps he’s truly found another level. Arguing for Robertson doesn’t mean you hate Malgin, why does it always have to be about that here? Do I think you hate Robertson because you’re arguing for Malgin?

 

[Nineteen67]

Any team with the cap space will take him. His real dollars are low and his flexibility (and value at the TDL) make him attractive.

The lack of teams that can fit him in will lower the return for him though, which is why I didn't factor a high return on him as a benefit from trading him.

However, once injuries start showing up it could change things...a contending team that loses a top six forward (and gains the associated LTIR space) might find Kerfoot very attractive... another reason to play the waiting game perhaps.

The Leafs have to do something in 24 days when Liljegren returns. The odds of a contender freeing up 3.X cap is low.

He’s been paid his signing bonus so his actually salary is low so there could be a market for a low budget team, that would look to flip him at the TDL.

 

[supermann_98]

Who’s “ripping” on him? He had a good camp and perhaps he’s truly found another level. Arguing for Robertson doesn’t mean you hate Malgin, why does it always have to be about that here? Do I think you hate Robertson because you’re arguing for Malgin?

What? Have you not been reading the thread? Lots of people are ripping on Malgin, often referencing Bourne and Coliacovo as the subject matter experts when it comes to who should make the team vs who should be on waivers.

Paraphrasing here but "he's only here because of Dubas' ego to show he didn't screw up the Marchment trade". Is that not ripping the guy?

 

[conFABulator]

The Leafs have to do something in 24 days when Liljegren returns. The odds of a contender freeing up 3.X cap is low.

He’s been paid his signing bonus so his actually salary is low so there could be a market for a low budget team, that would look to flip him at the TDL.

you think the odds of a top six player getting injured in the first 3 weeks of the season is low? I don't. I am not convinced we move Kerfoot though.

We may have injuries ourselves. Maybe Muzzin starts slow and gets 24 days of load management to deal with his lingering back? Maybe see that Holl has an injury? Murray?
Every year we worry about fitting everyone in and then four weeks later we four Marlies in the line up because of injuries. This will work itself out. If not, we waive Holl and bring in Liljgren. We keep Robertson as a call up when needed and we wait some more.

 

[The Iceman]

I would like to see Engvall get a chance on the left side of Tavares-Willy.

Tell him to do the dirty work.
I agree with an earlier post that mentions Tavares has done well with 2 big guys on either side of him.

Also adding my 2 cents. Robertson has put himself in a position to be the first call-up if we lose a winger in the top 9.
I think they will choose a different player to call up if we lose a 4th line player to injury.

 

[Havoc]

The Leafs have to do something in 24 days when Liljegren returns. The odds of a contender freeing up 3.X cap is low.

He’s been paid his signing bonus so his actually salary is low so there could be a market for a low budget team, that would look to flip him at the TDL.

Leafs can free up that money with ease.

I would like to see Engvall get a chance on the left side of Tavares-Willy.

Nylander looks ready to thrive. Prefer not to sabotage that by putting a 3rd/4th liner on his other wing.