Trades and UFA’s - Trade Deadline Edition

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Martin Skoula]

Jake Muzzin should have been replaced by Kyle Dubas in the summer of 2022, while it was clear he was either going to be an LTIR case and barely healthy. You want your GM to be proactive and solve team needs and not ride depreciating assets into the ground. Muzzin wasn't healthy day one of fitness testing and was a career ender a week into the season.

Putting the name "Muzzin" and "Treliving" together in one paragraph is a suspect concept, like it was Treliving who failed to patch the hole the previous GM had let fester for 12 months. But same train of thought that blames the Marleau for Jarvis pick trade on Lou Lamoriello.

I'm so glad Dubas is not GM anymore, so we don't have new items he botched to debate over.

I mean before Muzzin was perma-LTIR’d a week in you either spend assets to dump a contract that disappears for free soon or you can’t safely spend his cap. If we spent a 2nd to dump Muzzin and he went on perma LTIR a week later everyone would call that another mistake.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Jake Muzzin should have been replaced by Kyle Dubas in the summer of 2022, while it was clear he was either going to be an LTIR case and barely healthy.

Muzzin was healthy coming into last season, and was still an important and effective piece, coming off an excellent playoff performance. It was not clear that he would suffer a fluke career-ending cervical spine injury. That is something that cannot be predicted, and could happen to anybody at any time. There was no reason to move him in the summer of 2022, and you still haven't explained your contradiction suggesting that he should have been dumped, while simultaneously advocating going after somebody in the same age range facing significant decline.

Putting the name "Muzzin" and "Treliving" together in one paragraph is a suspect concept, like it was Treliving who failed to patch the hole the previous GM had let fester for 12 months. But same train of thought that blames the Marleau for Jarvis pick trade on Lou Lamoriello.

Treliving very literally is the one that failed to patch the hole. Our previous GM did not "let it fester". Our previous GM addressed it as best as possible in-season - adding 3 defensemen, a selke-caliber forward, and multiple defensively-conscious bottom-six PKers. On top of a strong support system already in place. Treliving was in charge at the next offseason, and stripped that support system to the bones, left a giant gaping hole in our top-4, and then added the worst defensive players in the league. Heck, I've even acknowledged the difficulty of replacing a Muzzin, even in the offseason, but that doesn't excuse doing nothing about it, and completely abandoning defense in every other possible way. You seem to want to blame Dubas for not replacing Muzzin when he was still an effective player, and yet absolve Treliving for not doing it when he was gone for good and it was his literal job.

I'm also not sure how you're trying to compare this to Marleau. In that situation, the GM signed it with full knowledge that it was sabotaging the future, and then the next GM fixed it in the best way possible. In this situation, the GM faced an unexpected injury, dealt with it as best as possible in-season, and then the next GM did nothing to fix it and dismantled everything that helped us bridge the gap.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

My top two targets would be forsling and Roy.
12.5 combined cap hit and our D core would be vastly improved.

Reilly. Roy
Forsling. Liljegren
Benoit. McCabe
Niemela

That's a Stanley cup calibre D corps.

 

[horner]

Muzzin was healthy coming into last season, and was still an important and effective piece, coming off an excellent playoff performance. It was not clear that he would suffer a fluke career-ending cervical spine injury. That is something that cannot be predicted, and could happen to anybody at any time. There was no reason to move him in the summer of 2022, and you still haven't explained your contradiction suggesting that he should have been dumped, while simultaneously advocating going after somebody in the same age range facing significant decline.

Treliving very literally is the one that failed to patch the hole. Our previous GM did not "let it fester". Our previous GM addressed it as best as possible in-season - adding 3 defensemen, a selke-caliber forward, and multiple defensively-conscious bottom-six PKers. On top of a strong support system already in place. Treliving was in charge at the next offseason, and stripped that support system to the bones, left a giant gaping hole in our top-4, and then added the worst defensive players in the league. Heck, I've even acknowledged the difficulty of replacing a Muzzin, even in the offseason, but that doesn't excuse doing nothing about it, and completely abandoning defense in every other possible way. You seem to want to blame Dubas for not replacing Muzzin when he was still an effective player, and yet absolve Treliving for not doing it when he was gone for good and it was his literal job.

I'm also not sure how you're trying to compare this to Marleau. In that situation, the GM signed it with full knowledge that it was sabotaging the future, and then the next GM fixed it in the best way possible. In this situation, the GM faced an unexpected injury, dealt with it as best as possible in-season, and then the next GM did nothing to fix it and dismantled everything that helped us bridge the gap.

Treliving hade no assets because of dubas all in at the trade deadlines .

 

[Dekes For Days]

Treliving hade no assets because of dubas all in at the trade deadlines .

He had plenty of assets. And free agency with a bunch of cap space. And a group of players that had already proven the ability to cover for not having Muzzin, and still get good defensive results. Replacing Muzzin with another top pairing defenseman may have been difficult (though certainly much less difficult than doing it in-season), but doing something to help the situation was not difficult.

He instead chose to not use the assets, not sign anybody to fill that hole, and dismantle the defensive support system that was already here, while adding bad defensive players.
And now, as expected, we're getting poor defensive results.

 

[horner]

He had plenty of assets. And free agency with a bunch of cap space. And a group of players that had already proven the ability to cover for not having Muzzin, and still get good defensive results. Replacing Muzzin with another top pairing defenseman may have been difficult (though certainly much less difficult than doing it in-season), but doing something to help the situation was not difficult.

He instead chose to not use the assets, not sign anybody to fill that hole, and dismantle the defensive support system that was already here, while adding bad defensive players.
And now, as expected, we're getting poor defensive results.

Accuri 3 yrs * 2 mil heads would have exploded if he signed that deal
Schenn 3 yrs * 2.75 mil heads would have exploded if we signed that deal
OReilly 4 yrs 4.6 mil he did not want to sign here
Benoit took the place of Schenn for 2 mill cheaper
Jones saved our season

Players having a dreadfully yr
Sammy did you see that one coming not me

Brodie he is a 7th dman this yr

Kampf not worth 1 mill this yr after what he showed last year

Klinkberg was a bad signed if he didn't have the hip issue probably a 3rd pairing dman not many RD available

Murray thank God he needed surgery or we would have been really f***ed because of Dubas

Don't blame Treliving on all of this shit.

And his hands were tied with all the no trades kicking in at the same time again good planning Dubas

 

[TheShape]

Dubas needed to upgrade on Muzzin and add to the D before the LTIR. Muzzin's game was on the decline and it was clear he could no longer carry Justin Holl.

Defense needed more attention, not wasting 4.6m in cap space on Matt Murray.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Accuri 3 yrs * 2 mil heads would have exploded if he signed that deal
Schenn 3 yrs * 2.75 mil heads would have exploded if we signed that deal
OReilly 4 yrs 4.6 mil he did not want to sign here
Benoit took the place of Schenn for 2 mill cheaper
Jones saved our season
Players having a dreadfully yr
Sammy did you see that one coming not me
Brodie he is a 7th dman this yr
Kampf not worth 1 mill this yr after what he showed last year
Klinkberg was a bad signed if he didn't have the hip issue probably a 3rd pairing dman not many RD available
Murray thank God he needed surgery or we would have been really f***ed because of Dubas
Don't blame Treliving on all of this shit.
And his hands were tied with all the no trades kicking in at the same time again good planning Dubas

I didn't expect him to re-sign everybody or hit on everything he did. Too many people expect perfection out of a GM, and will use hindsight to criticize any decision that didn't produce the best possible outcome in the league. I recognize that bad outcomes can come from good and logical decisions, and I don't particularly blame Treliving for signing Samsonov or keeping Brodie (who has very much not been a #7 this year).

What I do blame Treliving for are decisions that were fundamentally bad at the time. I did expect him to do something to address our biggest area of need, instead of doing nothing to address it while both stripping existing support and exacerbating the issue. Benoit and Jones have been nice depth finds, and it's important to hit on these fringe roster pieces, but the bigger decisions have been an absolute disaster.

Signing Klingberg for 4.15m was bad at the time. Signing Reaves was bad at the time. Signing Kampf for 2.4m when you've removed any place to effectively play him was bad at the time. Trading Lafferty was bad at the time. Taking money from defense and goaltending to spend big money on some of the worst defensive forwards in the league to add to rookies and a defensively stripped team is bad at the time. And yes, not addressing the loss of Muzzin in any way during the first offseason after his injury is bad at the time. He was not "tied". He had a wide array of pathways to build a great team.

There was no excuse not to have a top tier team this year. We've effectively navigated through much more difficult situations.
Hopefully he's learned from his mistakes, and is able to turn it back around.

 

[LeafEgo]

Muzzin was healthy coming into last season, and was still an important and effective piece, coming off an excellent playoff performance. It was not clear that he would suffer a fluke career-ending cervical spine injury. That is something that cannot be predicted, and could happen to anybody at any time. There was no reason to move him in the summer of 2022, and you still haven't explained your contradiction suggesting that he should have been dumped, while simultaneously advocating going after somebody in the same age range facing significant decline.

Treliving very literally is the one that failed to patch the hole. Our previous GM did not "let it fester". Our previous GM addressed it as best as possible in-season - adding 3 defensemen, a selke-caliber forward, and multiple defensively-conscious bottom-six PKers. On top of a strong support system already in place. Treliving was in charge at the next offseason, and stripped that support system to the bones, left a giant gaping hole in our top-4, and then added the worst defensive players in the league. Heck, I've even acknowledged the difficulty of replacing a Muzzin, even in the offseason, but that doesn't excuse doing nothing about it, and completely abandoning defense in every other possible way. You seem to want to blame Dubas for not replacing Muzzin when he was still an effective player, and yet absolve Treliving for not doing it when he was gone for good and it was his literal job.

I'm also not sure how you're trying to compare this to Marleau. In that situation, the GM signed it with full knowledge that it was sabotaging the future, and then the next GM fixed it in the best way possible. In this situation, the GM faced an unexpected injury, dealt with it as best as possible in-season, and then the next GM did nothing to fix it and dismantled everything that helped us bridge the gap.

The support system wasn't stripped down, it expired. Dubie only rented it, using all of our assets, so he could recreate a third of the roster he was trying to build for four and a half years and fluke through one playoff round win - slightly less embarrassing than none.

He salted the earth before we could finally get rid of him. It can't be fixed for free with one poor FA class and we don't have the assets to replace a third of the roster again for another try.

 

[4thline]

The support system wasn't stripped down, it expired.

It can't be fixed for free with one poor FA class

Where exactly did it expire to?

 

[Leaffan1991]

His dad died in the summer and his wife is battling MS, I'm not surprised he's not 100% mentally all there with hockey.

I didn't know that, well that would definitely take a toll

 

[Dreakmur]

I didn't expect him to re-sign everybody or hit on everything he did. Too many people expect perfection out of a GM, and will use hindsight to criticize any decision that didn't produce the best possible outcome in the league. I recognize that bad outcomes can come from good and logical decisions, and I don't particularly blame Treliving for signing Samsonov or keeping Brodie (who has very much not been a #7 this year).

What I do blame Treliving for are decisions that were fundamentally bad at the time. I did expect him to do something to address our biggest area of need, instead of doing nothing to address it while both stripping existing support and exacerbating the issue. Benoit and Jones have been nice depth finds, and it's important to hit on these fringe roster pieces, but the bigger decisions have been an absolute disaster.

Signing Klingberg for 4.15m was bad at the time. Signing Reaves was bad at the time. Signing Kampf for 2.4m when you've removed any place to effectively play him was bad at the time. Trading Lafferty was bad at the time. Taking money from defense and goaltending to spend big money on some of the worst defensive forwards in the league to add to rookies and a defensively stripped team is bad at the time. And yes, not addressing the loss of Muzzin in any way during the first offseason after his injury is bad at the time. He was not "tied". He had a wide array of pathways to build a great team.

There was no excuse not to have a top tier team this year. We've effectively navigated through much more difficult situations.
Hopefully he's learned from his mistakes, and is able to turn it back around.

Hopefully he has learned that Marner needs to be traded to balance the roster.

 

[MarMarSab3]

I didn't know that, well that would definitely take a toll

So then take time off.

 

[MoreMogilny]

Does Treliving sit on his hands much longer?

Are they evaluating our odds?

Do they save the sinking ship or hold out hope this team figures it out?

We all know they won’t sell. I want them to sell. But there’s zero chance that happens

What little future we have left will be mortgaged for a middling player who won’t have the desired impact because the root of our issues cannot be solved by spending assets to acquire depth.

 

[arso40]

Does Treliving sit on his hands much longer?

Are they evaluating our odds?

Do they save the sinking ship or hold out hope this team figures it out?

We all know they won’t sell. I want them to sell. But there’s zero chance that happens

What little future we have left will be mortgaged for a middling player who won’t have the desired impact because the root of our issues cannot be solved by spending assets to acquire depth.

They should sell tbh

 

[HomelessPepper]

On D, I hope Tre keeps Rielly, Liljegren, Benoit, and Lagesson (as depth), replace the rest.

 

[DougGilmour93]

Time to throw in the towel. Can’t beat crappy teams, can’t beat good teams.

No way we can trade our way out of this. Too many holes.

We need a #1 goalie
We need a #2 dman
We need a #3 dman
We need a 3c
We need character
We need heart
We need truculence

 

[LeafEgo]

Where exactly did it expire to?

The contracts expired, so they no longer belonged to the Leafs. They were available to every team. Some didn't want to resign and collectively over doubled their cap hit.

They were rentals, why belabor this.

 

[Stephen]

Selling at the deadline will make more and more sense if the team sinks out of the playoff race. We don't need Bertuzzi to whiff on every scoring chance, we have an army of Marlies who could do the same job.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Selling at the deadline will make more and more sense if the team sinks out of the playoff race. We don't need Bertuzzi to whiff on every scoring chance, we have an army of Marlies who could do the same job.

I'm not trying to challenge you here. I do see your point and understand your sentiment.

I just wonder when has this organization made sense though? Shanny has pushed playoffs (Buyers) on this team since Matthews played his first season.

Did it make sense to go all in by acquiring Foligno, Rittich, Noesen, Nash, Hutton, and Soumela? Maybe it did, but it didn't work out at all.

If Treliving acquires Domi/Bertuzzi only to trade them at the deadline wouldn't that tarnish his reputation and the Leafs organization?

If you get a feeling that TOR are going to be sellers at the deadline who would they sell? Brodie?

 

[Stephen]

I'm not trying to challenge you here. I do see your point and understand your sentiment.

I just wonder when has this organization made sense though? Shanny has pushed playoffs (Buyers) on this team since Matthews played his first season.

Did it make sense to go all in by acquiring Foligno, Rittich, Noesen, Nash, Hutton, and Soumela? Maybe it did, but it didn't work out at all.

If Treliving acquires Domi/Bertuzzi only to trade them at the deadline wouldn't that tarnish his reputation and the Leafs organization?

If you get a feeling that TOR are going to be sellers at the deadline who would they sell? Brodie?

Sell whomever isn’t signed long term. Make moves based on acquiring assets for offseason trades when more D are available. Don’t think about abstract reputational things or get bogged down by all this Shanahan baggage. Get a prospect or pick for every one of Brodie, Bertuzzi, Domi, whomever. Flip those things in the summer for roster upgrades. JMO. 2024 isn’t worth investing in.

 

[LeafEgo]

Brodie makes sense as a sell chip but there's a bit of a backstory there. Unless we're getting a 1st back for Bert or Domi I wouldn't bother, just keep moving forward and see how things shake out.

We should be buying players with term that fit the program at any time if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[BertCorbeau]

In the past they’ve bought at the deadline for “how hard they’ve worked”

This year should be the opposite.

 

[Gabriel426]

Accuri 3 yrs * 2 mil heads would have exploded if he signed that deal
Schenn 3 yrs * 2.75 mil heads would have exploded if we signed that deal
OReilly 4 yrs 4.6 mil he did not want to sign here
Benoit took the place of Schenn for 2 mill cheaper
Jones saved our season

Players having a dreadfully yr
Sammy did you see that one coming not me

Brodie he is a 7th dman this yr

Kampf not worth 1 mill this yr after what he showed last year

Klinkberg was a bad signed if he didn't have the hip issue probably a 3rd pairing dman not many RD available

Murray thank God he needed surgery or we would have been really f***ed because of Dubas

Don't blame Treliving on all of this shit.

And his hands were tied with all the no trades kicking in at the same time again good planning Dubas

Schenn can play with Reilly and that’s worth 2.75mil. Also I think he would had sign for cheaper to stay with the Leafs.
Imagine having Schenn and Benoit in the lineup.