Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals PART XXXV

[Big Muddy]

Yah I would prioritize a top 4.. I mentioned Petry but it doesn't have to be him.. I just thought he would look good on our 2nd pair... He's more than that in Montreal. UFAs at the TDL have a different market.. Waiting is an option but i would like to see that position strengthened to bring Sanderson in and help us move pucks out with control.. which benefits everyone.

I would also like to see our 2nd pair strengthened as well. Its an obvious need, glaringly obvious I'd think. Petry would be good. I think we could do it, but we have to stop spending money on junk and pool those precious $s together. Doesn't seem to be happening sadly though.

Dadonov was the right "concept" I think, but he didn't turn out to be the right player. It looked good on the surface though, and would imagine a lot of people/fans thought that.

I wonder if EM is gun shy now given that? Dorion had his chance, but now EM is reluctant to make another move like that one given the bad experience and lack of results. Who knows?

Then there's MDZ (this year's version), Gudbranson & Stepan - yeesh.

 

[Big Muddy]

I think going UFA can be expensive to acquire very good talent but the pro side is that you retain your player assets.

Agreed. Free agency requires money & a good judgement. Those 2 things are necessary. And, the advantage is the team doesn't have to deplete its young assets (prospects, picks, ELCs).

 

[Cosmix]

It's interesting to compare to other recent rebuilds. If you dig in and look at the number of seasons those teams had with less than 75 points, in a row, before starting to compete:

Chicago: 3 seasons (59, 65, 71, 88)
Pittsburgh: 4 seasons (69, 65, 58, 58, 105)
Toronto: 2 seasons (68, 69, 95)
Washington: 3 seasons (59, 70, 70, 94)

We've already had 4 straight seasons of 75 or less points (pro-rating last year) - 67, 64, 62, 75*. We should be on the upswing.

Another season or two, and this isn't a rebuild. It's a Sabres/Oilers/Coyotes level run of losing.

If we don't end with 80+ points this year, it's a failed season. No excuses.

Some of those teams were very fortunate to get the high quality players they drafted.

 

[Cosmix]

I would also like to see our 2nd pair strengthened as well. Its an obvious need, glaringly obvious I'd think. Petry would be good. I think we could do it, but we have to stop spending money on junk and pool those precious $s together. Doesn't seem to be happening sadly though.

Dadonov was the right "concept" I think, but he didn't turn out to be the right player. It looked good on the surface though, and would imagine a lot of people/fans thought that.

I wonder if EM is gun shy now given that? Dorion had his chance, but now EM is reluctant to make another move like that one given the bad experience and lack of results. Who knows?

Then there's MDZ (this year's version), Gudbranson & Stepan - yeesh.

Dadonov was a shooter playing on a Florida team with higher end players who could set him up. He was also an old over 30 vet at the time he was traded for. I was not a fan of the addition due to Dadonov's age; I would have preferred a much younger player. I think Dadonov failed because the Senators did not have a playmaking center who could feed him passes for one-timers. We still lack such a top end center which we need if we want to become a consistent playoff team and SC contender (top 8 team).

 

[DueDiligence]

It's interesting to compare to other recent rebuilds. If you dig in and look at the number of seasons those teams had with less than 75 points, in a row, before starting to compete:

Chicago: 3 seasons (59, 65, 71, 88)
Pittsburgh: 4 seasons (69, 65, 58, 58, 105)
Toronto: 2 seasons (68, 69, 95)
Washington: 3 seasons (59, 70, 70, 94)

We've already had 4 straight seasons of 75 or less points (pro-rating last year) - 67, 64, 62, 75*. We should be on the upswing.

Another season or two, and this isn't a rebuild. It's a Sabres/Oilers/Coyotes level run of losing.

If we don't end with 80+ points this year, it's a failed season. No excuses.

Let's compare:
Chicago had 1st and 3rd OA in those years and got Kane and Toews.
Pittsburgh had 1st OA twice and 2nd OA twice in those 4 years which turned out to be Crosby, Fleury, Malkin and Jordan Staal.
Washington had a 1st OA and got Ovie.
Toronto had a 1st OA and got Matthews .

How many 1st OA picks has Ottawa got the past 4 years ??? Heck the teams you mention got lucky and in 3 of the 4 cases got generational picks at 1st OA. ( And Kane is really good but not generational. )
Also Edmonton was crap until they got McDavid. Basically to do a fast rebuild you need to win the lottery and pick a great player or get really lucky on a bunch of lower picks.

 

[Big Muddy]

Dadonov was a shooter playing on a Florida team with higher end players who could set him up. He was also an old over 30 vet at the time he was traded for. I was not a fan of the addition due to Dadonov's age; I would have preferred a much younger player. I think Dadonov failed because the Senators did not have a playmaking center who could feed him passes for one-timers. We still lack such a top end center which we need if we want to become a consistent playoff team and SC contender (top 8 team).

I was thinking more of the "concept" about that trade more so than the specific player & why that failed. But, yes ...... it was "miss" for reasons some of which you pointed out.

 

[bicboi64]

He's made some good moves, for sure, but I don't think he's the right person to take this "rebuild" to the next level.

I agree with this. Dorion has built a decent foundation and I'd love for him to stay on as long as he is involved in scouting, but when it comes to pro rated talent and learning from his mistakes/moving on from bad moves, he isn't the guy. We've spent money in places that aren't paying dividends and part of that is on Dorion.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Let's compare:
Chicago had 1st and 3rd OA in those years and got Kane and Toews.
Pittsburgh had 1st OA twice and 2nd OA twice in those 4 years which turned out to be Crosby, Fleury, Malkin and Jordan Staal.
Washington had a 1st OA and got Ovie.
Toronto had a 1st OA and got Matthews .

How many 1st OA picks has Ottawa got the past 4 years ??? Heck the teams you mention got lucky and in 3 of the 4 cases got generational picks at 1st OA. ( And Kane is really good but not generational. )
Also Edmonton was crap until they got McDavid. Basically to do a fast rebuild you need to win the lottery and pick a great player or get really lucky on a bunch of lower picks.

Do you have an example of a slow rebuild that didn't involve a team bringing in established, quality players to surround their young prospects? Because that's what we're apparently trying to do.

You're right, we weren't lucky to land the top-end, generational players that could lift a team out of the basement themselves. And while we do have a good stable of solid young players, they can't do it themselves. They need support. Del Zotto, Gudbranson, Stepan, etc is not support.

 

[DrEasy]

So you are saying Ottawa is the only organization with contracts they wish they could take back? I can't prove it, but I am pretty sure those teams you listed all had a few contracts they would've liked to get rid of. The difference is their budgets were much bigger and they could get away with mistakes.

I did not like the White contract when it was signed. I thought it was way too much money for what White had shown at that point. I also thought Murray was gift wrapped an extremely generous contract. But every team has these situations. You can't expect Dorion to be perfect. There's no GM in the league that hasn't made a mistake.

It's one thing to not ask for perfection, but Dorion is next level imperfect. Pretty much every move he makes is a mistake. Just look at last year:

- lets Duclair go for nothing
- gives up a 2nd for Stepan
- trades for Murray and gives him a huge contract ($$$)
- signs Dadonov ($$$) , didn't pan out at all
- gives up asset to get Gudbranson
- loses Balcers to waivers while Paquette doesn't even want to play here
- Galchenyuk.

I'm probably forgetting many other blunders. The only good move last year was the Zub acquisition, which admittedly makes up for quite a few blunders, but come on. He's been spending this year just trying to undo last year's mistakes (traded Dadonov) while making new ones (Zub only signed for 2 years, Del Zotto). Sure, you can maybe see the rationale for some of the moves (Dadonov, maybe Zub only wanted a 2-yr contract) but at some point the accumulation of bad moves makes it hard to allow any amount of leeway and acceptance.

I'm totally ok with rooting for a low budget team, but rooting for a team with an extremely understaffed, inexperienced and mistake-prone front office is not fun. Bryan Murray wasn't perfect but in balance he was a net positive, not to mention the respectability he brought to the team.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Lol, we finished bottom 5 four of the last five years(actually you can argue its 5 of the last 6 since we got 2 top 5 picks in one draft means we are supposed to be sped up in our progress) and you making a post like this.

When do we start rising, your highness. How many more developmental years.

Last year we finished off the season super strong and what does Dorion due to reward it? MICHAELLL DELLLL ZOOOTTTTOOOOOO. Who's been scratched more than he has played, lmao. For 2 freaking million a year.

He's right, pure incompetence.

This reads a lot like a rant.

It sounds like what you’re trying to say is that after a complete gutting of our team we have drafted some high picks over the successive years that will/have grown to be the core of the team, and that we are taking our time developing said players and increasing their roles on the team.

I’m also getting a sense that you don’t have the patience or the desire to follow along at the pace of our plodding rise and have become disgruntled, especially after a loss.

Once again you seem to have different expectations on the team than management does, and different goals. That’s probably going to hurt all season long.

Incompetence? Maybe. In the end it seems to be a fun enough team to entertain me, and I’m enjoying the development and growth of young players. I was told to expect the kids to be competing for wins, and competing they are.

I don’t like losses, and I want the team to make the playoffs soon, but if that’s not the explicit goal this year, then I’m not going to try and show horn it in.

 

[Sweatred]

Nobody is saying that.

But it's a fact that we're spending $15.5M this year, and will be for the next two years, on Murray, White and Zaitsev, is it not?

That's a lot of money that could have been much better spent.

i hear it all the time here …

 

[Sweatred]

It doesn’t but it makes it easier to spend to the cap. Average 13K and revenues are there to support it when we can break even at 6K fans.

I think this is low. Haven’t dug deep into it but 13K is well bellow league average and I’d doubt that would support full cap spending with an owner breaking even (it shouldn’t).

if we looked at Forbes and found teams with 13K of attendance at full cap it would give us some insight. We also have lower third ticket prices.

Edit - only two teams in 2019 had less than 14K of avg attendance - Ottawa and NYI. The rest was over and there are lots of cap teams there that lost money. For example Florida lost a tonne at 14K fans close to the cap.

2019-2020 NHL Attendance - National Hockey League - ESPN

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

This reads a lot like a rant.

It sounds like what you’re trying to say is that after a complete gutting of our team we have drafted some high picks over the successive years that will/have grown to be the core of the team, and that we are taking our time developing said players and increasing their roles on the team.

I’m also getting a sense that you don’t have the patience or the desire to follow along at the pace of our plodding rise and have become disgruntled, especially after a loss.

Once again you seem to have different expectations on the team than management does, and different goals. That’s probably going to hurt all season long.

Incompetence? Maybe. In the end it seems to be a fun enough team to entertain me, and I’m enjoying the development and growth of young players. I was told to expect the kids to be competing for wins, and competing they are.

I don’t like losses, and I want the team to make the playoffs soon, but if that’s not the explicit goal this year, then I’m not going to try and show horn it in.

What goal is that? To finish bottom 5 after finishing off the season 10-3-1 or whatever? Yea it's still the start of the season and we could very well finish first in the division but that defense looks absolutely putrid after the top pair. A glaring hole we saw last year and still didn't address.

We developed LAST YEAR, we needed insulation this year and got nothing. I am very much content with finishing bottom 5 this year, btw, as it will give us that final missing piece to our core.

The issue is... if Dorion has failed to address a glaring needs the last two off-seasons, I don't know if I want to wait around this off-season to see if he will fail to do that -- and this time it can be instrumental to the direction of the moving forward(Boston vs EDM). And please no one mention the budget. You don't dish out 8.25 million combined for Murray and MDZ for at least next year and half and complain budget.

 

[DaveMatthew]

i hear it all the time here …

Do you think paying $11M a year to Murray and White is a good use of money?

 

[Loach]

Dorion won't be here to take this team to the next level if he does the same thing next summer as he did this past summer. I have a feeling he learned nothing from the Stepan off season.

 

[Sweatred]

Do you think paying $11M a year to Murray and White is a good use of money?

White ? Hard NO. Murray ? I don’t like how it’s gone so far but I think so … unless you tell me another experienced goalie that would come here. We couldn’t run Forsberg and Gus…

We don’t know who would have come here and who wouldn’t…

 

[DaveMatthew]

White ? Hard NO. Murray ? I don’t like how it’s gone so far but I think so … unless you tell me another experienced goalie that would come here. We couldn’t run Forsberg and Gus…

We could have traded for Nedelkovich, Bernier, Allen, Driedger, Reimer, etc. Are any of them #1s? No, but neither is Murray.

It's not hard to find a journeyman goalie who can put up a ~.900SV%. You just shouldn't pay them $6.25MX4.

 

[HSF]

goaltending isn't our problem

 

[Ice-Tray]

What goal is that? To finish bottom 5 after finishing off the season 10-3-1 or whatever? Yea it's still the start of the season and we could very well finish first in the division but that defense looks absolutely putrid after the top pair. A glaring hole we saw last year and still didn't address.

We developed LAST YEAR, we needed insulation this year and got nothing. I am very much content with finishing bottom 5 this year, btw, as it will give us that final missing piece to our core.

The issue is... if Dorion has failed to address a glaring needs the last two off-seasons, I don't know if I want to wait around this off-season to see if he will fail to do that -- and this time it can be instrumental to the direction of the moving forward(Boston vs EDM). And please no one mention the budget. You don't dish out 8.25 million combined for Murray and MDZ for at least next year and half and complain budget.

Well, that’s one way of looking at things.

 

[SensHulk]

Dorion won't be here to take this team to the next level if he does the same thing next summer as he did this past summer. I have a feeling he learned nothing from the Stepan off season.

I have a feeling Dorion has no choice. There’s a directive to save costs and that limits what moves we can make.

 

[HSF]

I have a feeling Dorion has no choice. There’s a directive to save costs and that limits what moves we can make.

yet we spend on useless players like MDZ and Colin White

 

[Liver King]

Get a mother f***ing top 4 defenseman

Hot dog Dorion

 

[Liver King]

yet we spend on useless players like MDZ and Colin White

Yeah maybe our budget wouldn't be such an issue if Dorion didn't spend millions on trash

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

We let this dude go so we can get Brown and MDZ.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

That Fiala guy would look really good in our lineup right about now....